Nolva vs. Clomid for PCT

[steroid_]

wow this post just answered all of my questions ! Gracias amigo

 

[RL92]

Very useful, I will refer to this when I do my first AAS cycle. Thank you sir!

 

[juicer83199]

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Turkey_535i]

Why not just use both nolva and clomid at same time for post cycle therapy (pct) instead of choosing.

 

[silentshorty]

Excellent post very imformative thank you. Answered one of my questions perfectly great post

 

[stmichael192012]

Why not just use both nolva and clomid at same time for pct instead of choosing.

is it the proper way of pct?? or clomid first at 4 weeks 50mg everyday? and followed by nolva? am i right?

 

[Alpin]

The article said long treatment with clomid did "irreversible eye damage"....
is this truly the case?

 

[notdorianyates]

Thanks for the info, always forget the precise rec's for Nolva- so very useful.


Nice one.

 

[clsmth700]

that all hormones/androgens that effect hpta are free from your system no longer causing suppression , this depends on half life of the particular gear your using

starting pct/nolva/clomid too soon can cause additional suppression and increase negative symptoms rather than aid recovery of hpta

 

[clsmth700]

What do you mean by "make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of clomid/Nolvadex is discontinued" . I am new and trying to understand so to become more educated, thanks

that all hormones/androgens that effect hpta are free from your system no longer causing suppression , this depends on half life of the particular gear your using

starting PCT/nolva/clomid too soon can cause additional suppression and increase negative symptoms rather than aid recovery of hpta

 

[DreDay187]

that all hormones/androgens that effect hpta are free from your system no longer causing suppression , this depends on half life of the particular gear your using

starting PCT/nolva/clomid too soon can cause additional suppression and increase negative symptoms rather than aid recovery of hpta

PCT started too early will not cause additional suppression. You wait for the hormone ester to clear the system bc as long as its in your body at active levels, PCT will be ineffective. This has nothing to do with further suppressing the HPTA. It has to do with exogenous hormones stop natural test production. When your testes don't produce test they shrink as a result. So long as there is excess test in your body your testes will be atrophied/reduced in size and no amount of PCT will work on "deactivated balls" lol. You need the testes back at their original size for them to produce test and respond positively tomPCT.

 

[clsmth700]

...if your running sust for example and and you dont allow several weeks for all esters to clear your system and you start your pct with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and clomid for example yes this will prolong your HPTA from restarting as it will increase test levels past the period of time that sust ester would clear your body which will continue send hpta message the it is getting exo hormones

this Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and nolva not equivalent to your high test levels from sust cycle YET it is enough to extend the amount of time that hpta continues to stop natural test production before starting to recover

this prolonging the amount of time that it will take for recovery will also prolong negative symptoms associated with coming off/pct and being

 

[clsmth700]

btw your wrong about testes

while your testes do need to start proper function including increased testosterone and FSH LH they don't need to be back "at their original size"

many body builders experience atrophy and nuts never ever go back to original size. BUT they do return to normal functioning

You need the testes back at their original size for them to produce test and respond positively tomPCT.

And second they don't return to normal size until after they have responded to PCT - this is how they get back to size in first place, without a good PCT they often dont return to normal size , so your off on the timeline of things as well

 

[Mr.Lean27]

X2

...if your running sust for example and and you dont allow several weeks for all esters to clear your system and you start your pct with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and clomid for example yes this will prolong your hpta from restarting as it will increase test levels past the period of time that sust ester would clear your body which will continue send hpta message the it is getting exo hormones

this Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and nolva not equivalent to your high test levels from sust cycle yet it is enough to extend the amount of time that hpta continues to stop natural test production before starting to recover

this prolonging the amount of time that it will take for recovery will also prolong negative symptoms associated with coming off/pct and being

 

[DreDay187]

...if your running sust for example and and you dont allow several weeks for all esters to clear your system and you start your pct with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and clomid for example yes this will prolong your HPTA from restarting as it will increase test levels past the period of time that sust ester would clear your body which will continue send hpta message the it is getting exo hormones

this Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and nolva not equivalent to your high test levels from sust cycle YET it is enough to extend the amount of time that hpta continues to stop natural test production before starting to recover

this prolonging the amount of time that it will take for recovery will also prolong negative symptoms associated with coming off/pct and being

You preferably shouldn't be running Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) in your PCT regardless so it's a moot point. yes I agree Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is suppressive but it also stimulates the testes and makes them receptive to SERM treatment.

 

[DreDay187]

btw your wrong about testes

while your testes do need to start proper function including increased testosterone and FSH LH they don't need to be back "at their original size"

many body builders experience atrophy and nuts never ever go back to original size. BUT they do return to normal functioning



And second they don't return to normal size until after they have responded to PCT - this is how they get back to size in first place, without a good PCT they often dont return to normal size , so your off on the timeline of things as well

No, you don't understand what's happening physiologically. Whether they return to their EXACT original size or not is irrelevant, they cannot produce testosterone in their atrophied state like when on cycle. The reason you wait for the ester to clear is so serum testosterone levels drop enough that the body stops seeing exogenous or excess testosterone. This allows the testes to regain their size since the pituitary will start receiving GnRH and start making LH for the testes to make testosterone. Yes you have a point, some people never regain their full size back but that is one reason some people never regain their full production of testosterone back so again I'm right about the testes and your example of BB'ers not regaining full size has nothing to do with proving me wrong but amplifies my point.

They will continue to increase in size until they hit the max size they're going to get and they are back making as much testosterone as is going to be made. This has nothing to do with PCT and everything to do with time. You can skip your PCT and many people will still recover fully just will take longer. All pct is is to speed up recovery and put the odds in your favor. My testes are back to normal size and they got there before I finished my first week of post cycle therapy (pct). ill leave you with 2 quotes that back up my stance from 2 of the most knowledgable people on this forum. I can get scientific references if you prefer but I figure these would do for the time being. Next time, instead of trying to prove how "wrong" someone is, I would suggest you pick up an endocrinology text book and teach yourself how the body responds to exogenous test and recovers. You've made many errors and while not necessarily dangerous, your misguided recommendations could leave someone with the wrong information

FSH is your Follicle Stimulating Hormone. Just like LH, it's produced by the pituitary gland and works in synergy with LH. You'll notice that when you cycle, both of these numbers are in the gutter, because they're suppressed.

THE PURPOSE OF hCG is to maintain or restore your natural testosterone production. For those of you who cycle steroids, this is a vital step towards a successful post cycle recovery. Because exogenous testosterone triggers your hypothalamus to stop LH production. No LH production means no natural testosterone production. This is how atrophy occurs, because your testes become empty.

Shortly after administering doses of hCG, testicals come back to normal size and natural production is back in business. This is because hCG mimics LH. Pretty straight forward.


What are All the Benefits from Using hCG?

There's more to hCG than maintaining natural testosterone production and preventing testicular atrophy. So there's plenty of good reasons why I always recommend hCG treatment as a part of your cycle protocol. I'll get into the technicality and benefits now, but I want you to understand that you're going to have to base your decisions on the science I'll be listing. The science and facts can be researched and verified and I'll do what I can to provide as much evidence as possible. However, there are no studies on hCG with relation to high volume cycles. All studies relate to testosterone therapy replacement (TRT) patients. And we will utilize this information to relate it to our cycles.

Benefits of hCG:

1. Prevention of testicular atrophy.
-- This is done by mimicking LH and restarting natural test production in the testes.

2. Balances hormonal fluctuation. (Mainly testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) patients)
-- By strategically timing hCG injections, you will prevent "dips" in serum levels.

3. Maintains healthy sperm counts.
-- hCG is a staple in fertility and sperm production. Much better chance at having children in the future.

4. hCG is a Precursor for DHEA.
-- DHEA is a hormone with endless benefits, such as reduced cardiovascular risk, immune stimulation, memory, energy, bones, etc...

5. Activates the P450 side chain cleavage enzyme.
-- This is an enzyme that converts cholesterol to pregnenolone. Pregnenolone is a hormone that combats fatigue and stress, betters your mood, defends us against coronary disease, has a role in energy and promotes a healthy brain. This is a staple in anti-aging-seeking men.

6. Increases libido in males.
-- Some steroids cause libido loss in some males, even with the presence of high serum testosterone. hCG has reportedly improved the male libido by stimulating what otherwise would be "shut down".

The doctor is correct, it technically does not jumpstart test production and in fact, it is suppresses the HPTA at the level of the pituitary.

HCG mimics LH in the body...and LH is the messanger which directly tells the testes to produce testosterone. When you take exogenous AAS, the brain picks up on the excess level of anabolic-androgenic hormones and then tells the pituitary to stop producing LH. With no more LH to order the testes to produce testosterone, natural testosterone levels drop and since the testes are no longer being used for testosterone production, they shrink. This process is what we call suppression.

When you inject HCG, you bypass the pituitary, as the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) travels right to the testes and orders them to produce testosterone. Because the body has no need for its own LH when using HCG, the pituitary will either ceasse LH production...or remain suppressed if it is already in a suppressed state. So, when you take HCG, it does result in negative feedback, causing the HPTA to shutdown (or remain shidown) at the level of the pituitay.

When looking at it from this point of view, the doctor is completely correct. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) does NOT re-start the HPTA...it ONLY keeps the tests functioning through exogenous means. Still, this is beneficial for recovery because atrophied testes are not able to produce adequate testosterone. Before the testes can fully respond to PCT drugs and begin producing normal amounts of testosterone, they must re-grow to a normal size. By keeping the testes at a normal size throight the cycle, they are able to immediately respond to the LH produced by the pituitary when the person begins using PCT drugs. Altogether, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) probably speeds up recovery by a few weeks.

 

[DreDay187]

X2

Ummmm....if you understood what that said exactly I applaud you. I had a hard time understanding it but regardless, if you don't wait for the ester to clear it will NOT suppress you further. Suppression is suppression. Period. If you start PCT early all it will do is be less effective bc the testes are not back to size and still atrophied. In the atrophied state they will not be as receptive to SERM treatment. You're welcome to read the same links I posted to the other member if you'd like to learn more.

 

[clsmth700]

um yes I do understand what's happening physiologically

im not sure you do. in your 1st post you say your nuts have to return to normal size so they can respond to pct

in your 2nd post you agree with me that this process happens during and after pct is ran

but you put far too much emphasis on atrophy and then you posted a bunch of info that had nothing to do with my post and then made a leap of assumption that I dont get it

i do get it. and of course i understand how exogenous test effects hpta

I was only responding to OP question about waiting for suppressive elements to leave the body before beginning pct

and all i was references was negative feedback loop that can happen if pct is begun too early

lets just agree to move on either way brother

 

[clsmth700]

p/s/ im not trying to prove anyone "wrong" & don;t tell me to read a text book - because again it is an assumption

you are good at making assumptions about other people

you come off in a bad light that way


but if you look at your 1st post it is riddled with poor descriptions of how PCT works and your obsessed with nut size - hmmm

its not about restarting size its about starting activity and production initially, and describing this process with the use of the word "size" is a crude way of explaining it to others

so i think you could use your own advice to me and be more careful about information your giving out

 

[DreDay187]

um yes I do understand what's happening physiologically

im not sure you do. in your 1st post you say your nuts have to return to normal size so they can respond to pct

in your 2nd post you agree with me that this process happens during and after pct is ran

but you put far too much emphasis on atrophy and then you posted a bunch of info that had nothing to do with my post and then made a leap of assumption that I dont get it

i do get it. and of course i understand how exogenous test effects hpta

I was only responding to OP question about waiting for suppressive elements to leave the body before beginning pct

and all i was references was negative feedback loop that can happen if pct is begun too early

lets just agree to move on either way brother

This is what you said, note the bolded part:

that all hormones/androgens that effect hpta are free from your system no longer causing suppression , this depends on half life of the particular gear your using

starting PCT/nolva/clomid too soon can cause additional suppression and increase negative symptoms rather than aid recovery of hpta

The bolded part is wrong. The only part I agreed with you in is that Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is suppressive but if you run it during cycle there's no we'd to run it during post cycle therapy (pct). clomid and Nolva are not suppressive. The fact that you mention clomid and negative feedback loop can happen if you start PCT too early is proof you don't know what you're talking about. The negative feedback loop in this instance is clomid acting as a estrogen antagonist in the hypothalamus and by tricking the hypothalamus into believing there is less estrogen than there really is, more LH and FSH is released by the pituitary. The fact that LH and FSH increase is proof clomid is not suppressive since by definition suppression is the inhibition of LH and FSH at the pituitary level or GnRH at the hypothalamus level.

Did you not read the bolded part of Mike Arnold's quote? How can you not see the relevance? My leap of assumption was not that you don't get it, that was a statement of fact. Yes suppressive compounds must be cleared for recovery to start but your false assumption that clomid is a suppressive compound is leading you astray.

p/s/ im not trying to prove anyone "wrong" & don;t tell me to read a text book - because again it is an assumption

you are good at making assumptions about other people

you come off in a bad light that way


but if you look at your 1st post it is riddled with poor descriptions of how PCT works and your obsessed with nut size - hmmm

its not about restarting size its about starting activity and production initially, and describing this process with the use of the word "size" is a crude way of explaining it to others

so i think you could use your own advice to me and be more careful about information your giving out

I am good at making assumptions about others, the sad fact is I'm usually proved correct. I'd rather come off in a bad way and put the right information across to those reading than come off in a good way and let bad info stay out there.

You think that's an obsession with nut size? C'mon is that an ad hominem? Nut size is extremely important to the issue at hand bc so long as they are in their atrophied state they will not respond to SERM treatment as evidenced by the "useless posts I put up for you".

Here's a another quote from Anabolics 10th Ed by William Llewellyn:

Clomid® (clomiphene citrate)



Description:

Clomiphene citrate is an anti-estrogenic drug that is prescribed to women to treat anovulatory infertility (inability to ovulate). In clinical medicine it is specifically referred to as a nonsteroidal ovulatory stimulant. The drug works by interacting with estrogen receptors, often in an antagonistic manner, in various tissues of the body including the hypothalamus, pituitary, ovary, endometrium, vagina, and cervix. One main focus is that the drug will oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamic-pituitary-ovarian axis enhancing the release of gonadotropins (LH and FSH). This surge in gonadotropins may cause egg release (follicular rupture), ideally leading to conception. ...

As an anti-estrogenic drug, clomiphene citrate may also produce an elevation of follicle stimulating hormone, and luteinizing hormone levels, which can elevate testosterone production. This effect is especially beneficial at the conclusion of a steroid cycle, when endogenous testosterone levels are depressed.

Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. ***8220;Anabolics.***8221; iBooks.

^^^ so please tell me where it is suppressive? It enhances the release of LH and FSH which is the OPPOSITE of suppression basically. This explanation will really interest me.

And I did take my advice, I researched and referenced my points and backed them up with citations so I am being more than careful with the advice I'm giving, the same of which cannot be said about you. Have a good day sir.