Nolvadex as an androgenic?

[blackice]

I'm relatively young and I know people will tell me that you shouldn't be using roids but I already know. I have already been on a cycle of dianabol with nolvadex as a post cycle therapy (pct) before and it was really succesful. Anyway's being 18 years old I think it would be safe to say that my body is still producing fairly high levels of testosterone on it's own. But all the research I have done always points towards using another androgenic (preferably test) as a stack with d-bol since it is mostly anabolic. My question is, would an 18 year old's testosterone levels already be high enough to "void" the need for extra testosterone? And if not, why couldn't Nolvadex be used as an androgenic? I have heard mixed comments that nolvadex during a cycle limits gains, but it sounds like thats due to the fact that nolvadex will prevent alot of water retenion which disapears after the cycle anyway. But nolvadex is said to increase your natural testosterone production by %150 on average. I don't want use testosterone injections yet since I am young and I don't want to screw up my natural testosterone production. So what are people's thought's? Would I get greater gains in total by taking Nolvadex all during my cycle or by only taking it during my post cycle therapy (pct)?

 

[estray]

. But nolvadex is said to increase your natural testosterone production by %150 on average. ?

It only does that in hypodgonadic people, not people who have normal testosterone production. Wouldnt work.

 

[blackice]

Well obviously not... That is one of the major reasons for taking Nolvadex during post cycle therapy (pct) is to restore your natural testosterone levels, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[estray]

Well obviously not... That is one of the major reasons for taking Nolvadex during post cycle therapy (pct) is to restore your natural testosterone levels, correct me if I'm wrong.

Thats becuase after your cycle you are in a hypogonadic state. Your natural test is low or shut down and taht is why you respond to nolvadex. It will have little to no effect on someone whos test levels are normal. All the studies you will find on nolvadex that support this are done on hypogonadic subjects.

 

[blackice]

Ok that makes alot of sense. Another question I have been having a hard time getting a specific answer to, how much effect does dianabol have on my body's own natural testosterone production compared to other steroids? And is the reason everybody says to stack testosterone with dianabol because dianabol has little to no effect on androgen receptors? If so, could you give me a list of other oral steroids that do bind to adrogen receptors so that I can look into them?

 

[estray]

All steroids bind to androgen receptors. Thats how they work. Some have a higher affinity than others though. Dbol will effect your test production just like any other steroid. Some are milder like anavar, some harsh like tren, dbol is kinda middle of the road. Read the stickies and steroid profiles as they contain all this information.

 

[blackice]

I have looked through pretty much every steroid I can find but I can't find a suitable oral steroid that will stack well with dianabol. And honestly I just don't want to take injections. But I think I've come to a decision.
Dianabol 20mg/day - week 1-6
Letrozole 1mg/day - week 1-6
PCT
Nolvadex 30mg - day 1, 20mg day 2-7, 10mg day 7-14

Then I'll repeat the cycle again. My thought on the letrozole is that it will obviously keep the estrogen related side effects down, and cut down a bit on the water retention. I also assume it will help inhibit the aromatizing of my natural testosterone and the dianabol therefore improving the effects of both and giving me better gains in the end. Does this sound like a decent plan for a 2nd timer? Or do you think I'm wasting my money on the letrozole?

 

[FerrariF50]

I have looked through pretty much every steroid I can find but I can't find a suitable oral steroid that will stack well with dianabol. And honestly I just don't want to take injections. But I think I've come to a decision.
Dianabol 20mg/day - week 1-6
Letrozole 1mg/day - week 1-6
PCT
Nolvadex 30mg - day 1, 20mg day 2-7, 10mg day 7-14

Then I'll repeat the cycle again. My thought on the letrozole is that it will obviously keep the estrogen related side effects down, and cut down a bit on the water retention. I also assume it will help inhibit the aromatizing of my natural testosterone and the dianabol therefore improving the effects of both and giving me better gains in the end. Does this sound like a decent plan for a 2nd timer? Or do you think I'm wasting my money on the letrozole?

forget letrozole as a first choice bloat control. it's way over kill. there's much better options.

 

[estray]

Okay, before i get too ahead of myself i need to address your age. At 18 I/we here dont recommend cycling. It can have a much more permanant negative effect on your body than say a 23 year old. Not to mention at 18 your body is just flowing with testosterone. Theres no reason to screw with it and doing so could be disastrous but if youre still deadset the least we can do is give some solid advice.

letro is waaayyy too strong for estrogen control on cycle. Arimidex or aromasin would be much better. 20mg dbol might be a little on the light side but we dont know much about you really as far as your stats go..., weight, height, years training, etc...

Dont know if that post cycle therapy (pct) would be enough either. standard nolva protocol is more like 40mg first week, 30mg week 2, 20mg week 3, and 10mg week 4.

 

[blackice]

Such as? And will these better options prevent the aromatizing of the dbol and natural testosterone? And are any of these better options fairly cheap because that would be a good plus!

 

[blackice]

Ya I'm 18 5' 8" and just under 130 pounds lol... I really couldn't explain to you why I am this light, I've worked out so hard, and not like an idiot either, well studied and planned workout plans and diet's, my dad played high level hockey when he was younger and worked out alot in his day and is huge. He's even a scientist now in biology, safe to say he knows his stuff. He worked with me for years. My strength builds a bit, and my endurance is incredible, I just can't gain a pound if my life depended on it. And that's why I tried dbol, gained 10 pounds in 4 weeks. Since I'm under 130 that's why I'm sticking to relatively low dosage's. If you still think 20mg is a little light then I could definetly step it up a bit. 20mg worked well for me last time with very little side effects, just a few more pimples then normal and a little overall water retention. Just washed my face and the water retention disapeared once I was done the cycle. With an aromatizing inhibitor this time though I'm sure I could step up the dosage with probably less side effects than last time even.

 

[estray]

130lbs? Really? Dude, you just need to eat more food.

Give us a sample of what you eat in any given day.

 

[blackice]

Oh man, when i was trying to gain weight, I was eating 3 eggs, about 6 pieces of bacon, and a smoothie with about 30g of whey protein in it, plus I would take i think it was 20mg or maybe 200mg of creatine, and omega 3,6,9 fatty acid pill, and a full vitamin pill in the morning, chicken sub for lunch plus another fatty acid pill, and some other stuff inbetween. Usually a protein bar or something. Then workout for 1-2 hours after school, then dinners varried but no less than 25g of protein plus the last fatty acid pill, then usually either a couple eggs or an egg sandwich or ham sandwich or something a couple hours before bed along with another 30g whey protein smoothie. This was for months! Like I said, I put alot of research into it. Like I gained some good strenth, my reps and weights were going up, and my muscles got tighter, more cut, they just never gained any real size. Like at all, my weight stayed EXACTLY the same, except for the first week when I put all of that food weight on. I don't think I could eat more food then that if I tried. I even asked my doctor about it, he took some blood tests, everything was better normal, almost too healthy, he just said my body's metabolism is just flying through my food and that my body just wasn't designed to build mass. It works out well for long distance track and stuff, I just want to put on a some more size. So I talked to a buddy who I knew had been around the stuff, he talked to some people and got me some dbol. I tried a short light 4 week cycle, I put on more weight in a week than I did in four months working out without steroids. I just wanted to see if there was any real difference with steroids and if the stuff he could get was actually real or not before I got serious into a full cycle. And I'm pretty convinced.

 

[blackice]

I looked up Arimidex and Aromasin and the difference between Aromasin and Letro is pretty obvious but Arimidex sounds to be fairly similar to Letro. What is the difference? Is Arimidex just not as potent as Letro? Also, what's the general price difference between the three? It sounds like I could use pretty much any of them just at different dosages.

edit: Ya I looked it up some more and it sounds like yes Letro is just alot more potent than Arimidex. Letro seems to be alot cheaper though. Could I not just bump the dosage way down to 0.25mg/day? Also, I live in Canada so free health care. What would my doctor say if I asked him for a blood test to check my testosterone and estrogen levels? haha And probably my liver toxicity levels while he's at it.

 

[Jordan89]

Whats wrong with just dbol and nolvadex? isnt nolvadex enough of an anti est?

 

[blackice]

Well the thought was that it would prevent my natural testosterone and the dianabol from aromatizing into estrogen in the first place. Nolvadex doesn't prevent testosterone and dianabol from aromatizing, it just blocks estrogen receptors so that the estrogen in your blood doesn't cause estrogenic effects. But now I'm confused, I've been researching some more and some sources say that dianabol doesn't aromatize, while other sources say that it definetly does aromatize. Can anybody tell me which one it is? It must aromatize, where else would the estrogenic effects of dianabol come from?

Basically, my thought is that, when you take nolvadex with dianabol, user's find that their results are worse. This is assumed because the testosterone and dianabol in your body that have aromitized into estrogen, can't have any effect on the muscle's because of the nolvadex blocking the estrogen receptor's. So you don't get the positive effect of the estrogen. My idea is that, by taking letrozole, you stop the aromatization of estrogen all together. So yes you loose the positive effects of estrogen (depending on the dosage of letrozole of course), but you now have kept a higher amount of dianabol and testosterone in your system because it hasn't aromitized into estrogen. So now you loose the effect of estrogen but gain the effect of more testosterone and dianabol. And if I did this I would take a very low dose of letrozole (probably around 0.25mg/day) so that I would still have some estrogen left in my system to still gain some of the benefits of the estrogen. Is this idea completely wrong? Or is there some possibilty of it working? Should I try it out and let everybody know how it works out?

It's not so much an anti-est as it is a pro-test.

 

[yeahbuddeh!]

you actually are sort of right in the 2nd paragraph. dbol does aromatize tho, heavily. moreso than test. in fact, test will not give me any sides, or itchy or sore nips but dbol will. dbol will also give me 2x the gains i get from test alone but only if i combine it with test. otherwise it isnt that great alone and i lose mostly everything. anyway, i would get arimidex and run a low dose of that instead of the letro to still keep some estrogen levels because too low or too high can damage you physically and mentally. i would tell you to stay away from gear because of your age but

1) you already used dbol before and
2) ive started as young as just before i turned 18 so i was still 17

if i could take it back and waited til today (26) i would, but i cant.

Well the thought was that it would prevent my natural testosterone and the dianabol from aromatizing into estrogen in the first place. Nolvadex doesn't prevent testosterone and dianabol from aromatizing, it just blocks estrogen receptors so that the estrogen in your blood doesn't cause estrogenic effects. But now I'm confused, I've been researching some more and some sources say that dianabol doesn't aromatize, while other sources say that it definetly does aromatize. Can anybody tell me which one it is? It must aromatize, where else would the estrogenic effects of dianabol come from?

Basically, my thought is that, when you take nolvadex with dianabol, user's find that their results are worse. This is assumed because the testosterone and dianabol in your body that have aromitized into estrogen, can't have any effect on the muscle's because of the nolvadex blocking the estrogen receptor's. So you don't get the positive effect of the estrogen. My idea is that, by taking letrozole, you stop the aromatization of estrogen all together. So yes you loose the positive effects of estrogen (depending on the dosage of letrozole of course), but you now have kept a higher amount of dianabol and testosterone in your system because it hasn't aromitized into estrogen. So now you loose the effect of estrogen but gain the effect of more testosterone and dianabol. And if I did this I would take a very low dose of letrozole (probably around 0.25mg/day) so that I would still have some estrogen left in my system to still gain some of the benefits of the estrogen. Is this idea completely wrong? Or is there some possibilty of it working? Should I try it out and let everybody know how it works out?

It's not so much an anti-est as it is a pro-test.

 

[blackice]

how much is letro gonna drop my est levels at only 0.25mg a day though? Only reason I would rather use letro than arimidex is cause its much more cost effective