Nolvadex with Deca

[dragon06]

Will doing 10mg nolva hinder my gains? Im gonna do 400mg deca. Ive heard that with deca I wil have to have my estrogen level sufficiently high for full effect.

 

[mvmaxx]

I've never heard that you need your "estrogen level sufficiently high". That sounds like a scary scenario. LOL

400mg of deca should be fine. You can add Nolva if you're concerned but there's contradicting opinions on whether nolvadex works with deca.

 

[ready2explode]

Popular belief at the moment is that nolva will not hinder gains, but I would not suggest using it unless you're experiencing gyno symptoms.

 

[dragon06]

Im gonna do nolva to not retain to much water too. My heart gets out of beat each time im on something that holds alot of water.

 

[ready2explode]

Might want to look into eq then. Very similar to deca, but no water.

Plus, you've recover faster from it.

 

[needsize]

side effects like gyno and water retention from deca are progesterone based, which means that an anti-estrogen like nolva, wont do jack for them

 

[dragon06]

Actually the gyno is progestrone, but the water retention is the same as the other steroids.

Have heard this from 3 other mods from 2 other forums.

 

[ready2explode]

is Eq as potent at building mass as Deca is mg for mg?

According to Big Cat, it is stronger...check out his profiles... www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catsteriods.htm

 

[ready2explode]

side effects like gyno and water retention from deca are progesterone based, which means that an anti-estrogen like nolva, wont do jack for them

This is simply not true. Progesterone has no effect without the presence of estrogen. Block estrogen, and you wont have problems with progesterone gyno.

 

[ready2explode]

Actually the gyno is progestrone, but the water retention is the same as the other steroids.

Have heard this from 3 other mods from 2 other forums.

Both androgens and estrogens cause water retention, so there will always be some. There is no such thing as estrogen gyno and progesterone gyno. Gyno is gyno.

This was posted by Nandi (admin over at cuttingedgemuscle):

Before you decide that blocking progesterone is the solution to gyno, consider a few things. There is not one case of progesterone induced gyno in the medical literature EXCEPT in those cases where strong synthetic progestins, like medroxyprogesterone, were administered. In these cases the gyno is due to suppression of LH and testosterone by the progestin, NOT by a direct effect on breast tissue. On a cycle your LH is already suppressed by the Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) anyway.

Breasts have two components: alveoli and ducts. The alveoli are what secrete milk; they drain into ducts. Gynecomastia is the result of ductal hyperplasia, not alveolar hyperplasia. Estrogen stimulates the ductal tissue, while progesterone stimulates the alveoli. Alveolar hyperplasia does not contribute to gyno. If you want to read more on breast development, I suggest visiting this site:

http://www.endotext.org/male/male14/male14.htm

In various tissues throughout the body, including cultured neoplastic breast tissue, progestins downregulate the estrogen receptor (1). Progesterone receptor blockers like RU-486 upregulate the estrogen receptor (1). This is consistent with the fact that RU-486 CAUSES gyno in patients in whom it is used to treat Cushing's disease and meningiomas (2).

Progestins are also anti-estrogenic in that they induce the enzyme 17-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, which catalyzes the oxidation of estradiol to the less potent estrone. Progestins also induce estrogen sulfotransferase, the enzyme which catalyzes the sulfation and inactivation of estrogens.

So do progestins contribute to gyno, and if yes, how so? If you visit the link above you will see that progestins increase IGF-1 levels. As that article indicated, IGF-1 is essential to the the development of mammary tissue. This is also how it is believed that progestins in Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) or oral contraceptives contribute to breast cancer: by increasing IGF-1 levels. But as bodybuilders we are always trying to maximize IGF-1. Hence the futility of trying to lower IGF-1 by blocking progestins. The other anabolics we use will elevate (hopefully) IGF-1, while blocking the progesterone receptor will only increase the levels and activity of estrogen by the mechanisms outlined above.

Two drugs have shown the greatest efficacy in treating gyno: Nolvadex, and Raloxifene, another SERM. Nolvadex has the longest track record, but a recent trial with Raloxifene showed it to be superior to Nolvadex. With these drugs you attack the problem at its source: the estrogen receptor. You get the added benefit of lowering IGF-1. Not a good thing for making gains, but important for treating gyno.

(1) Int J Biol Markers 1995 Jan-Mar;10(1):47-54
Progesterone agonists and antagonists induce down- and up-regulation of estrogen receptors and estrogen inducible genes in human breast cancer cell lines.

(2) J Neurosurg 1991 Jun;74(6):861-6
Treatment of unresectable meningiomas with the antiprogesterone agent mifepristone.
Grunberg SM, Weiss MH, Spitz IM, Ahmadi J, Sadun A, Russell CA, Lucci L, Stevenson LL.
Department of Neurosurgery, University of Southern California School of Medicine, Los Angeles.

 

[StoneColdNTO]

This is simply not true. Progesterone has no effect without the presence of estrogen. Block estrogen, and you wont have problems with progesterone gyno.

That is what hhajdo is refering to in this qoute from this thread....I think ?

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5777&highlight=nolvadex+AND+deca

If you're really worried about the possible loss of gains (which wouldn't be significant IMO) use nolvadex only if you need it.

RU-486 is antiandrogenic in some tissues , it has many sides... don't use that crap.

In some studies in which nandrolone was used, elevated levels of estrone were noticed.

Estrone is not as potent as estradiol, but it can be converted to estradiol ... so use tamoxifen if needed.


Acta Endocrinol (Copenh) 1982 Sep;101(1):108-12 Links


Influence of nandrolondecanoate on the pituitary-gonadal axis in males.

Bijlsma JW, Duursma SA, Thijssen JH, Huber O.

Different anabolic steroids can exercise different effects on the pituitary-gonadal axis in males. During a pilot study regarding the possible beneficial effect of the anabolic steroid nandrolondecanoate (ND) on bone metabolism in patients with rheumatoid arthritis additional endocrinological parameters were studied.A significant decrease was found in the serum levels of testosterone, androstenedione and FSH and the ratio of testosterone/oestradiol. There was a significant increase in the serum levels of oestrone.