NPP / Deca; Test e; Mast e - Suggestions on the following plan?

[BigGains]

Hey Guys,

Per my previous post about joint pain from my last run, I wanted to get your input regarding the proposed cycle. I want to try Nandrolone, and was thinking I would start with NPP (400mg/week; via 3 inj - MWF). This way, I'm able to assess my body's reaction to Nandrolone, and stop if I can't mitigate any sides (assuming I get any). Also going to run Test e at 400mg/week; and Masteron E at 600/week; for a total of 14 weeks. Goal is to be as full as possible while keeping bf at a minimum (bf being the main focus). Last year, ran test/mast/winny, and while I got shredded, the winny was really harsh on my joints. In addition, I got extremely painful pumps.

This time around, i'd like to get back to that physique (or as close to it as possible) while not being in pain, hence the NPP/Deca as I know it's beneficial for joint pain. I am going to plan it so I complete the run right before I head off to vacation for two weeks. I know the longer esters will still be doing their thing while i'm on vacation (test/mast), but ideally, I would like to have some of the nandrolone in my system to keep my joints feeling nice as I will be pretty active (hiking; surfing; etc).

Would it make sense to start doing a mix of NPP/Deca 6 weeks prior to vacation (beginning of week 9)? Instead of NPP at 400mg/week, perhaps NPP 300/Deca 100/week? Due to the long ester, I was thinking 6 weeks would have allowed the deconate time to accumulate, and due to the slow half life, the deconate would keep my joints pain free during vacation. Any thoughts on this idea?

Week 1 - 8:
NPP: 400mg/wk via 3 inj - MWF
test e: 400mg/wk via 2 inj - MF
mast e: 600mg/wk via 3 inj - MWF

Week 9 - 14:
NPP/Deca: 300/100 (400mg total/wk)
test e: 400mg/wk
mast e: 600mg/wk

HCG 500iu/wk & liquidstane 12.5 - 25mg/ed throughout cycle. Will have prami on hand. PCT Clomid/Nolva

Thanks for your input/advice!

-BigGains

 

[tbonexl]

Deca/npp isn't a miracle compound. It does help with some joint relief but not really what you're outlining. 6 weeks of deca at 100mgs per week isn't really doing anything. It's such a low dose for such a short period. I would stay with npp since your using it throughout. Another idea would to use deca from beginning of cycle and jump start with npp for 6 weeks. It will then be at full saturation by week 9 for sure.

The only issue I see is with your pct. Like you mentioned, deca is a long ester. You don't want elevated levels of deca while doing pct. It's recommended to run test 2-3 weeks longer than deca so that it has cleared by pct. So really your plan has some faults in it. You probably don't want to use deca if your stopping everything before vacation. I would stick with npp..

 

[scorob777]

A couple comments

Your painful pumps might have been mainly due to the masteron, so might want to back off the 600mg/w dose if that's a concern to you.

For me nandrolone is a miracle drug for my joints, as low as 200mg/w made all my pain go away. Don't know if it will still have that effect long term, or if over time it works less & less. Time will tell.

I would suggest running the deca from the start at full dosage, and kickstarting with NPP - tapering the NPP dose down to zero over about five weeks or so.

 

[Teutonic]

Take aspirin dude...before and after and ice what u worked.
Deca will help u train harder heavier and exacerbate the arthritic condition s and that s why I do not fool with it as if I were to mask it w deca npp infused water in joint soft tissue s and go ape...u can t run THAT 19 nor forever like test..
Turn s my blood to cold diesel fuel oil .
Thick and heavy.
Hard to pump.
Pain is a red light on your dashboard dude. Pay heed. Train smarter.

 

[BigGains]

Thanks for your response. the pain i referred to in my post was most pronounced after my run (not while training) and it occurred when I was surfing; and that was about 3 days after my last injection/winny tab. multiple overhead strokes when paddling caused an extremely painful pump in my shoulders. I've surfed plenty before, and have never had this issue.

I hear what you're saying regarding pain - don't ignore it. but in my situation, the height of the pain wasn't while training. addt'l context::: on my run last summer, i ran test e & mast e for 14 weeks; and winny last 6 of those 14 weeks. literally ended the run right before i went on vacation (last inj and winny tab the night before my flight). my logic is that esters from mast were still floating around; and likely, some remnants of Winny were still in my system as well. hopefully all of that makes sense. should have clarified though. won't take winny again as it reeked havoc on my shoulders and knees. my inquiry was more aimed at if i combined npp; would this help prevent my painful shoulder pumps that i might again encounter due to the mast. overall, really liked mast and it's synergistic effects, so was wondering if i could still use it, and mitigate some of the effects of the mast -- not pain from my training.

I vary my training routines; and keep my body guessing, but I didn't do sort of training my last run that I hadn't previously done at some point (in the past). point i'm trying to make -- while i know we train more intensely while on gear, i didn't overdue it and/or ignore anything. didn't train over the top by any means -- I've trained harder in the past, and I've never had "painful pumps" like i did last summer; and this was after completing my cycle.

Take aspirin dude...before and after and ice what u worked.
Deca will help u train harder heavier and exacerbate the arthritic condition s and that s why I do not fool with it as if I were to mask it w deca npp infused water in joint soft tissue s and go ape...u can t run THAT 19 nor forever like test..
Turn s my blood to cold diesel fuel oil .
Thick and heavy.
Hard to pump.
Pain is a red light on your dashboard dude. Pay heed. Train smarter.

 

[BigGains]

Gotcha. From what I've read, deca dosages as low as 200mg/week can help with joint pain; so perhaps i should have suggested NPP200/Deca200 the last six weeks. but, i see what you're saying regarding running test 2-3 weeks longer. guess i could always start the run 2-3 weeks earlier, and plan it so the deca run would stop 2-3 weeks before test and mast did. my logic is/was as follows: if the compound is still in your system due to the length of the ester, i would think you would still reap some of it's benefits. with that logic, i was thinking it would make sense to have the decaonate ester included, late in the game, at a very low dosage.

my last PCT was 30 days after my last injection (test e/mast e). I've read that a lot of folks on an enanthate ester cycles wait 14-16 days before starting PCT; but i came across a pretty cool PCT calculator tool that suggested 30 days (for enanthate cycles 12 weeks or longer). it's based on the fact that there is a build up of the compound over time due to length of the enanthate ester. the PCT calculator was actually a sticky on this forum for a while, but i can't find it now...

for example, on this run, if my last inj was on 7.1; i wouldn't be starting PCT until 8.1 at the absolute earliest. last time, i felt i timed it perfectly bc i could really feel that my levels were low. from what i understand, a lot of people make the mistake of starting pct too early -- when compounds (via enanthate esters) are still pretty high. and a lot of these folks are starting PCT 2 weeks after the last injection; when they still feel "good/great", and IMO, that is a mistake. just my .02.

Deca/npp isn't a miracle compound. It does help with some joint relief but not really what you're outlining. 6 weeks of deca at 100mgs per week isn't really doing anything. It's such a low dose for such a short period. I would stay with npp since your using it throughout. Another idea would to use deca from beginning of cycle and jump start with npp for 6 weeks. It will then be at full saturation by week 9 for sure.

The only issue I see is with your pct. Like you mentioned, deca is a long ester. You don't want elevated levels of deca while doing pct. It's recommended to run test 2-3 weeks longer than deca so that it has cleared by pct. So really your plan has some faults in it. You probably don't want to use deca if your stopping everything before vacation. I would stick with npp..

 

[tbonexl]

Gotcha. From what I've read, deca dosages as low as 200mg/week can help with joint pain; so perhaps i should have suggested NPP200/Deca200 the last six weeks. but, i see what you're saying regarding running test 2-3 weeks longer. guess i could always start the run 2-3 weeks earlier, and plan it so the deca run would stop 2-3 weeks before test and mast did. my logic is/was as follows: if the compound is still in your system due to the length of the ester, i would think you would still reap some of it's benefits. with that logic, i was thinking it would make sense to have the decaonate ester included, late in the game, at a very low dosage.

my last PCT was 30 days after my last injection (test e/mast e). I've read that a lot of folks on an enanthate ester cycles wait 14-16 days before starting PCT; but i came across a pretty cool PCT calculator tool that suggested 30 days (for enanthate cycles 12 weeks or longer). it's based on the fact that there is a build up of the compound over time due to length of the enanthate ester. the PCT calculator was actually a sticky on this forum for a while, but i can't find it now...

for example, on this run, if my last inj was on 7.1; i wouldn't be starting PCT until 8.1 at the absolute earliest. last time, i felt i timed it perfectly bc i could really feel that my levels were low. from what i understand, a lot of people make the mistake of starting pct too early -- when compounds (via enanthate esters) are still pretty high. and a lot of these folks are starting PCT 2 weeks after the last injection; when they still feel "good/great", and IMO, that is a mistake. just my .02.

I would agree about pct. I think it's better to start pct a little late then too soon. Pct calculator is a good tool.

As far as deca alleviating the pumps from mast, it's doubtful. Winny has been known to cause joint pain and pumps so maybe that was the culprit.

 

[BigGains]

copy that.

do you think mast e would still provide a synergistic effect at say 400mg/wk? i know no one has a crystal ball here. and the reason i am a bit pressed to incorporate mast is bc it just did wonders last time. Aside from the painful pumps, i was very pleased with it. In addition, I was thinking that perhaps the pain was from the mast/winny combo....

just to clarify regarding your decca suggestion -- when you suggest running deca from the start, at full dosage, and kickstarting with NPP, tapering the NPP down to zero over 5 weeks -- would that look something like the following:

*week 1 - 2: NPP 100mg; eod (total: 400mg one week; 350 2nd week)
*week 3: NPP 75mg; eod (total: 225mg/wk)
*week 4: NPP 50mg; eod (total: 150mg/wk
*week 5: NPP 25mg; eod (total: 75mg - 100mg/wk)
*week 1- 14: Deca 400/wk

as this would be my first time with nandrolone, i just want know early on if i'm sensitive to the sides. i get that i will have prami; and will be taking liquidstane to control e2....... i'm just looking at it from a worst case scenario. if i fully commit to deconate from the beginning, and start to have issues, i'm basically pushing rope for 30 days.....that sounds horrible. but maybe i'm misunderstanding here.

when i did my first run of test e -- at week four, it was like...BAM--here it is (strength; confidence; stamina; positive outlook seemed to come pretty abruptly at week 4). BUT, i did start to get more frequent hard-ons/morning wood, and increased libido and aggression within the first 10 days. i know placebo is involved...but morning wood?? that has to be physiological, no? point being -- if i ran into ugly sides from using deconate, perhaps they kick in at say, the third week...... well, by that time, i have a decent amount of the compound in my system (400/wk x 3 weeks); and will likely be waiting no less than 30 days before i'm no longer pushing rope. am i wrong with this reasoning?

A couple comments

Your painful pumps might have been mainly due to the masteron, so might want to back off the 600mg/w dose if that's a concern to you.

For me nandrolone is a miracle drug for my joints, as low as 200mg/w made all my pain go away. Don't know if it will still have that effect long term, or if over time it works less & less. Time will tell.

I would suggest running the deca from the start at full dosage, and kickstarting with NPP - tapering the NPP dose down to zero over about five weeks or so.

 

[BigGains]

thanks again tbonexl. i know i'm asking a lot of questions....seems like the more i learn, the more i realize how little i actually know lol. regarding kick starting with NPP (if i went that route) -- would it be NPP eod; 100mg; for first 6 weeks; and Deca 400mg/week, week 1 - 14? i know the prop in NPP is not as short an ester as the prop in test (nandrolone phenolypropionate = 5 day active life; test propionate = 2-3 day active life). just trying to avoid the situation where the build up accumulates and i'm screwed for a period of time.

I would agree about pct. I think it's better to start pct a little late then too soon. Pct calculator is a good tool.

As far as deca alleviating the pumps from mast, it's doubtful. Winny has been known to cause joint pain and pumps so maybe that was the culprit.

 

[tbonexl]

I would run npp for 100mgs eod first 5-6 weeks with deca starting at week one. It's good to be conscious of all the sides from deca but don't expect them. Usually sides come from not managing e2 (estrogen). I don't need to run a da while on deca but that's not to say you won't either. I've found that keeping my ai dialed in doesn't get me any issues with deca.

 

[BigGains]

10-4. Great info and advice - thanks again.

I would run npp for 100mgs eod first 5-6 weeks with deca starting at week one. It's good to be conscious of all the sides from deca but don't expect them. Usually sides come from not managing e2 (estrogen). I don't need to run a da while on deca but that's not to say you won't either. I've found that keeping my ai dialed in doesn't get me any issues with deca.

 

[scorob777]

Big Gains, the NPP taper scheme you list out looks ok. You could check it with roidcalc to try to get the NPP dosages as close to optimal as possible. I did, and got a pretty smooth ramp up and curve using NPP 300mg 1st wk over 4 shots, 150mg 2nd week over 3 shots, 100mg 3rd week over 4 shots, 60mg 4th over 3 shots, 40mg 5th over 4 shots. Pretty complicated so most people probably wouldn't want to fool with it. I did exactly this approach over the last few weeks, and also with 400 mg/wk deca 2x/wk - I shot NPP EOD starting with 120mg, then 90, 80, 70, 60, 50, 40 then dropped it. According to roidcalc this get you up to full bloodstream dosage by the middle of week 2 without overshooting. Note this is based on believing roidcalc in the first place, and results are sensitive to the half life you assume. I use 15 for deca and 4.5 for NPP.

The painful pumps is likely mast, and likely dosage related. Sounds like you really want to use it, so why not drop the dose like you suggest.

Having the long ester deca in your blood for your holiday is another goal you listed, so I'd suggest running 400 deca from the start then you'll have plenty for weeks after last pin. Solves the holiday problem, but introduces a PCT problem as you'll want 6 to 8 weeks off before PCT, so maybe switch back to NPP or stop deca well before test if PCT timing is an issue for you.

Interesting advice to ignore deca for joint relief, but go ahead and use aspirin. Listen to your body but train hard. Either could lead you to overwork a damaged joint, so no magic bullet here. Pick your poison, risk damage or get soft & weak.

copy that.

do you think mast e would still provide a synergistic effect at say 400mg/wk? i know no one has a crystal ball here. and the reason i am a bit pressed to incorporate mast is bc it just did wonders last time. Aside from the painful pumps, i was very pleased with it. In addition, I was thinking that perhaps the pain was from the mast/winny combo....

just to clarify regarding your decca suggestion -- when you suggest running deca from the start, at full dosage, and kickstarting with NPP, tapering the NPP down to zero over 5 weeks -- would that look something like the following:

*week 1 - 2: NPP 100mg; eod (total: 400mg one week; 350 2nd week)
*week 3: NPP 75mg; eod (total: 225mg/wk)
*week 4: NPP 50mg; eod (total: 150mg/wk
*week 5: NPP 25mg; eod (total: 75mg - 100mg/wk)
*week 1- 14: Deca 400/wk

as this would be my first time with nandrolone, i just want know early on if i'm sensitive to the sides. i get that i will have prami; and will be taking liquidstane to control e2....... i'm just looking at it from a worst case scenario. if i fully commit to deconate from the beginning, and start to have issues, i'm basically pushing rope for 30 days.....that sounds horrible. but maybe i'm misunderstanding here.

when i did my first run of test e -- at week four, it was like...BAM--here it is (strength; confidence; stamina; positive outlook seemed to come pretty abruptly at week 4). BUT, i did start to get more frequent hard-ons/morning wood, and increased libido and aggression within the first 10 days. i know placebo is involved...but morning wood?? that has to be physiological, no? point being -- if i ran into ugly sides from using deconate, perhaps they kick in at say, the third week...... well, by that time, i have a decent amount of the compound in my system (400/wk x 3 weeks); and will likely be waiting no less than 30 days before i'm no longer pushing rope. am i wrong with this reasoning?