orals and liv52 / milk thistle / etc.

DADAWG

DADAWG

Community Veteran
i absolutely agree with taking supplements to at least limit the effect that orals have on the liver.

HOWEVER COMMA

every oral thread seems to talk about taking these protections but none of them mention avoiding all the other liver irritating compounds. avoid alcohol while on oral steroids . many prescription meds irritate the liver take them if necessary but if you do limit oral use..

over the counter meds are especially dangerous , tylenol is extremely liver toxic and should be avoided at all cost while on oral steroids , many other OTC meds are liver toxic as well so beware.
 
DADAWG said:
i absolutely agree with taking supplements to at least limit the effect that orals have on the liver.

HOWEVER COMMA

every oral thread seems to talk about taking these protections but none of them mention avoiding all the other liver irritating compounds. avoid alcohol while on oral steroids . many prescription meds irritate the liver take them if necessary but if you do limit oral use..

over the counter meds are especially dangerous , tylenol is extremely liver toxic and should be avoided at all cost while on oral steroids , many other OTC meds are liver toxic as well so beware.
Click to expand...

Agree, ofcourse I never drink on any cycle and always use excedrin. Im more of a fan of milk thistle 5000mg ed 2weeks prior any oral steroid, throughout cycle and 2 weeks after. Never tried oral tren(just something i want to try once) but will in 5wks at 250mcg week1 500mcg week2 and ending it with 750mcg and definitely will be staying away from otc meds, alcohol etc and take my thistle.
 
Fuck milk thistle, I didn't take it when I shootin dope and sniffin OC's so I can't imagine AAS could be any worse, my shit's prob fucked anyways.
 
DADAWG said:
i absolutely agree with taking supplements to at least limit the effect that orals have on the liver.

HOWEVER COMMA

every oral thread seems to talk about taking these protections but none of them mention avoiding all the other liver irritating compounds. avoid alcohol while on oral steroids . many prescription meds irritate the liver take them if necessary but if you do limit oral use..

over the counter meds are especially dangerous , tylenol is extremely liver toxic and should be avoided at all cost while on oral steroids , many other OTC meds are liver toxic as well so beware.
Click to expand...

Can you explain this nonsense please?
 
DADAWG said:
whats nonsense about it ? 17a steroids { usually orals } stress the liver just like alcohol , tylenol , etc. .
Click to expand...

Yes but everyone around these boards is so afraid of orals thinking they destroy the liver and such with NO empirical evidence whatsoever..

In fact, empirical evidence shows orals (such as anadrol) to show no significant effects on the liver at all, so why would someone waste $$ when milk thistle and such will provide no benefit?

Not trying to sound like a dick, just curious if anyone has proven evidence on oral steroids and the "bad" effects on the liver everyone swears of, along with milk thistle making any difference.
 
zepplin92 said:
Yes but everyone around these boards is so afraid of orals thinking they destroy the liver and such with NO empirical evidence whatsoever..

In fact, empirical evidence shows orals (such as anadrol) to show no significant effects on the liver at all, so why would someone waste $$ when milk thistle and such will provide no benefit?

Not trying to sound like a dick, just curious if anyone has proven evidence on oral steroids and the "bad" effects on the liver everyone swears of, along with milk thistle making any difference.
Click to expand...

having been a part of this community for a very long time ive actually seen many people use orals over the years and get blood work done and vhave elevated liver values and these same people have not had elevated liver values other than when on oral steroids. that doesnt PROVE anything but its a pretty convincing cooincidence. elevated liver values doesnt PROVE permenant liver damage but it does suggest something has had a significant effect on the liver.
as far as milk thistle , liv52 , anti oxidants , etc. having a positive effect of the liver i cant PROVE that it does . i have seen many studies over the years when i was a part of the health food / vitamin industry that said that milk thistle DID help protect the liver but i didnt save a copy of any of it.there have been plenty of studies about antioxidants effects on free radicals in the body as well but i cant PROVE that they will help either.
now my real opinion is that if a person does NOT have a preexisting health condtion he could run a moderate dose oral cycle for 6 weeks with zero problems if he stayed away from booze , tylenol , etc. . the problem the with this is that many people are walking around with unknown health conditions , many people wont be able to resist a night on the town drinking it up and many people are addicted to otc meds like excedrin , tylenol , etc. so why wouldnt we try to give their liver some level of protection by using supplements.


as far as you not trying to be a dick thats not true . 1st you called it nonsense instead of just pointing out your opinion and now this post you used emperical evidence not just 1 time but you used it twice in some kind of pathetic attempt to make yourself look smart or to make a moderator look dumb.

if you were really that smart and wanted to stay a member of this board you wouldnt have disrespected me like that and came that close to getting banned and as far as making me look dumb i will tell you or anyone else that theres a ton of stuff that i dont know and that i still learn every day but i have been around these boards and a part of this community since a lot of the people here were in diapers so i have REAL WORLD experiece that EMPERICAL EVIDENCE doesnt always beat out.


i encourage you to give your opinion and state your side of any debate here but dont get smart with me or any other staff member . i work many many hours here every week for free to help keep this board up and running for everyone to enjoy. im not asking for a atta boy but i do demand a certain amount of respect.
 
DADAWG said:
having been a part of this community for a very long time ive actually seen many people use orals over the years and get blood work done and vhave elevated liver values and these same people have not had elevated liver values other than when on oral steroids. that doesnt PROVE anything but its a pretty convincing cooincidence. elevated liver values doesnt PROVE permenant liver damage but it does suggest something has had a significant effect on the liver.
as far as milk thistle , liv52 , anti oxidants , etc. having a positive effect of the liver i cant PROVE that it does . i have seen many studies over the years when i was a part of the health food / vitamin industry that said that milk thistle DID help protect the liver but i didnt save a copy of any of it.there have been plenty of studies about antioxidants effects on free radicals in the body as well but i cant PROVE that they will help either.
now my real opinion is that if a person does NOT have a preexisting health condtion he could run a moderate dose oral cycle for 6 weeks with zero problems if he stayed away from booze , tylenol , etc. . the problem the with this is that many people are walking around with unknown health conditions , many people wont be able to resist a night on the town drinking it up and many people are addicted to otc meds like excedrin , tylenol , etc. so why wouldnt we try to give their liver some level of protection by using supplements.


as far as you not trying to be a dick thats not true . 1st you called it nonsense instead of just pointing out your opinion and now this post you used emperical evidence not just 1 time but you used it twice in some kind of pathetic attempt to make yourself look smart or to make a moderator look dumb.

if you were really that smart and wanted to stay a member of this board you wouldnt have disrespected me like that and came that close to getting banned and as far as making me look dumb i will tell you or anyone else that theres a ton of stuff that i dont know and that i still learn every day but i have been around these boards and a part of this community since a lot of the people here were in diapers so i have REAL WORLD experiece that EMPERICAL EVIDENCE doesnt always beat out.


i encourage you to give your opinion and state your side of any debate here but dont get smart with me or any other staff member . i work many many hours here every week for free to help keep this board up and running for everyone to enjoy. im not asking for a atta boy but i do demand a certain amount of respect.
Click to expand...

Really??? Cause you seem to know a fuck ton about everything!

Also...I wish I could do a controlled flame as well as you lol

Who let the dawg out? haha
 
WTF. How are you going to attempt to disrespect DAWG? no problem with stating what you believe but to call it nonsense is bullshit.

If you spend some time here you would see that DAWG is putting things into perspective for those who don't know and no one is condemning orals but they will have an effect on the liver more so than most liquids, and most important is the fact that many people use other drugs and alcohol excessively while taking them so why would you not try to protect your liver. No one is saying orals are bad unless you use these supplements.

If anyone wants to disagree with anything any of us post that's great but dont be a dick to the mods or staff.

I'll trust DAWG's experience any day.
 
DADAWG said:
having been a part of this community for a very long time ive actually seen many people use orals over the years and get blood work done and vhave elevated liver values and these same people have not had elevated liver values other than when on oral steroids. that doesnt PROVE anything but its a pretty convincing cooincidence. elevated liver values doesnt PROVE permenant liver damage but it does suggest something has had a significant effect on the liver.
as far as milk thistle , liv52 , anti oxidants , etc. having a positive effect of the liver i cant PROVE that it does . i have seen many studies over the years when i was a part of the health food / vitamin industry that said that milk thistle DID help protect the liver but i didnt save a copy of any of it.there have been plenty of studies about antioxidants effects on free radicals in the body as well but i cant PROVE that they will help either.
now my real opinion is that if a person does NOT have a preexisting health condtion he could run a moderate dose oral cycle for 6 weeks with zero problems if he stayed away from booze , tylenol , etc. . the problem the with this is that many people are walking around with unknown health conditions , many people wont be able to resist a night on the town drinking it up and many people are addicted to otc meds like excedrin , tylenol , etc. so why wouldnt we try to give their liver some level of protection by using supplements.


as far as you not trying to be a dick thats not true . 1st you called it nonsense instead of just pointing out your opinion and now this post you used emperical evidence not just 1 time but you used it twice in some kind of pathetic attempt to make yourself look smart or to make a moderator look dumb.

if you were really that smart and wanted to stay a member of this board you wouldnt have disrespected me like that and came that close to getting banned and as far as making me look dumb i will tell you or anyone else that theres a ton of stuff that i dont know and that i still learn every day but i have been around these boards and a part of this community since a lot of the people here were in diapers so i have REAL WORLD experiece that EMPERICAL EVIDENCE doesnt always beat out.


i encourage you to give your opinion and state your side of any debate here but dont get smart with me or any other staff member . i work many many hours here every week for free to help keep this board up and running for everyone to enjoy. im not asking for a atta boy but i do demand a certain amount of respect.
Click to expand...

UserAt204 said:
WTF. How are you going to attempt to disrespect DAWG? no problem with stating what you believe but to call it nonsense is bullshit.

If you spend some time here you would see that DAWG is putting things into perspective for those who don't know and no one is condemning orals but they will have an effect on the liver more so than most liquids, and most important is the fact that many people use other drugs and alcohol excessively while taking them so why would you not try to protect your liver. No one is saying orals are bad unless you use these supplements.

If anyone wants to disagree with anything any of us post that's great but dont be a dick to the mods or staff.

I'll trust DAWG's experience any day.
Click to expand...

I honestly didn't mean to come off as a dick.

I just recently heard from a few people who are extremely scientific that there is a LOT of BS floating around all these steroid forums and have even saw the clinical trials myself...and it seems everyone thinks orals are harsh on the liver, even when ran for longer then 8 weeks when that clearly isn't the case.

I do apoligize again, I know your well known around these boards and work your ass off to try and safely educate people, just was asking for studies on milk thistle and the positive effects etc along with orals being so harsh.

When I first came to these boards I figured that all the information is here and all I have to do is read and study the information..however being more open minded I am trying to approach my AAS research in a different manner with using actual proven studies instead of just reading and believing what everyone here says, basically being more methodical about it, (Instead of just using other's experiences, Im trying to use science AND experience for a more solid understanding of AAS).

"Can you explain this nonsense please? " should have really been
"Can you explain the effects of orals on the liver and back up your statement with empirical evidence?"

Low carbing, excuse my ignorant and foolish previous posts :(.

Respect given bro.
 
zepplin92 said:
I honestly didn't mean to come off as a dick.

I just recently heard from a few people who are extremely scientific that there is a LOT of BS floating around all these steroid forums and have even saw the clinical trials myself...and it seems everyone thinks orals are harsh on the liver, even when ran for longer then 8 weeks when that clearly isn't the case.

I do apoligize again, I know your well known around these boards and work your ass off to try and safely educate people, just was asking for studies on milk thistle and the positive effects etc along with orals being so harsh.

When I first came to these boards I figured that all the information is here and all I have to do is read and study the information..however being more open minded I am trying to approach my AAS research in a different manner with using actual proven studies instead of just reading and believing what everyone here says, basically being more methodical about it, (Instead of just using other's experiences, Im trying to use science AND experience for a more solid understanding of AAS).

"Can you explain this nonsense please? " should have really been
"Can you explain the effects of orals on the liver and back up your statement with empirical evidence?"

Low carbing, excuse my ignorant and foolish previous posts :(.

Respect given bro.
Click to expand...

The only problem zepplin is that personal experiences out weighs medical research. Everyone handles things differently. Lets say you take a med and one of its side effects is palpatations...now sure we know palpatations is basically an abnormal heart rate that makes you consiously able to tell your heart is beating but that doesnt mean you know what palpatations feel like..just an example

From a medical aspect of things...to me there is no way orals are not toxic to the liver...they have to pass through the liver before being absorbed into the blood...now thats not saying that the liver cant handle this and it is a rejuvinating organ...I do think some orals are probably worse than others and that milk thistle is junk ;)

but these are just my opinions and not proven facts
 
Cobra Strike said:
The only problem zepplin is that personal experiences out weighs medical research. Everyone handles things differently. Lets say you take a med and one of its side effects is palpatations...now sure we know palpatations is basically an abnormal heart rate that makes you consiously able to tell your heart is beating but that doesnt mean you know what palpatations feel like..just an example

From a medical aspect of things...to me there is no way orals are not toxic to the liver...they have to pass through the liver before being absorbed into the blood...now thats not saying that the liver cant handle this and it is a rejuvinating organ...I do think some orals are probably worse than others and that milk thistle is junk ;)

but these are just my opinions and not proven facts
Click to expand...

Ah ok, Im just trying to understand it from both perspectives. Your right tho, everyone handles things differently.

Heres the study that really made me think about it and opened up my eyes anyway:

Liver enzymes (transaminases AST and ALT) increased only in the 100 mg group, but the changes were not dramatic, and were not accompanied by hepatic enlargement or the development of any serious liver condition.
Click to expand...

Source: http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/284/1/E120.full#T2

Cliffs:
After 12 weeks of taking one of the harshest orals at a dose of 100mg every day, elderly men just barely had a statistically significant change in liver enzymes. That's twice the recommended dose, for triple the recommended length of time, and it barely registered on the livers of elderly men.



Also, a 9 week dianabol study showing no effects on the liver at all.

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1923870/
 
Last edited:
Cobra Strike said:
The only problem zepplin is that personal experiences out weighs medical research. Everyone handles things differently. Lets say you take a med and one of its side effects is palpatations...now sure we know palpatations is basically an abnormal heart rate that makes you consiously able to tell your heart is beating but that doesnt mean you know what palpatations feel like..just an example

From a medical aspect of things...to me there is no way orals are not toxic to the liver...they have to pass through the liver before being absorbed into the blood...now thats not saying that the liver cant handle this and it is a rejuvinating organ...I do think some orals are probably worse than others and that milk thistle is junk ;)

but these are just my opinions and not proven facts
Click to expand...

im not one to post studies and im not going to start a copy and paste war but this is on wikipedia.
Toxin-induced liver damageResearch suggests that milk thistle extracts both prevent and repair damage to the liver from toxic chemicals and medications. Workers who had been exposed to vapors from toxic chemicals (toluene and/or xylene) for 5–20 years were given either a standardized milk thistle extract (80% silymarin) or placebo for 30 days.[15] The workers taking the milk thistle extract showed significant improvement in liver function tests (ALT and AST) and platelet counts vs. the placebo group.

The efficacy of silymarin in preventing drug-induced liver damage in patients taking psychotropic drugs long-term has been investigated.[16] This class of drugs is known to cause liver damage from oxidation of lipids. Patients taking silymarin in the study had less hepatic damage from the oxidation of lipids than patients taking the placebo.

In a 2009 study published in the journal Cancer, milk thistle showed promise in reducing the liver damaging effects of chemotherapy in a study of 50 children


i think milk thistle that is high quality with a strong concentration lf silymarin doe offer at least some help with the liver. that being said most of the people taking it are saving a few bucks and getting worthless sticks and twigs from walmart so its useless.
 
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