Prohormones? Yea or Nay
- Thread starter RoyBatty
- Start date
josh81
Jiu-Jitsu Blue
Yeah that's a good question...I never understood why some people stick to prohormones rather than just taking anabolics...Plus, theres a much higher risk for the liver by taking prohormone supplements because they must go through you body first, before being distributed, rather than the anabolics who dont have to go through as many steps to kick in.
But to answer your question, I would guess that part of the reason is that the anabolics are much harder to get than prohormone supplements, and you also have to remember that use anabolics is illegal in the United States unless they are used for medical purposes, unlike prohormones. It's a risk that many people wish not to take, so thats where the prohormones come into the picture.
But to answer your question, I would guess that part of the reason is that the anabolics are much harder to get than prohormone supplements, and you also have to remember that use anabolics is illegal in the United States unless they are used for medical purposes, unlike prohormones. It's a risk that many people wish not to take, so thats where the prohormones come into the picture.
josh81
Jiu-Jitsu Blue
Sir Foxx said:
What are you talking about? Oral steroids tend to have the greatest number of side effects. When they are ingested, they have to pass through the digestive system and the liver in order to get into the bloodstream. They have to be designed so as to survive this process, and taken in sufficiently large amounts to insure that there is enough left afterwards to have an effect.
Steroids taken in this form are subject to aggressive action by the liver, whose job it is in large part to remove such substances from the body. This puts a great deal of strain on the liver and, in some cases, this can result in significant liver damage.
Y
YellowJacket
Guest
joshisripped said:
LMAO... Brilliant. Isnt there someone out there to censor the idiots. Wow.
Y
YellowJacket
Guest
joshisripped said:
Ok, youre comparing injectables to orals, that throws your argument out from the start. Its like saying dbol is harder on your liver than test, because its an oral, no shit. As far as significant liver damage, this has been disproved time and time again, Id be eager to see your references cited on the aformentioned comment.,
josh81
Jiu-Jitsu Blue
YellowJacket said:
Yes, I am comparing injectable anabolics with oral prohormones. that throws my argument out from the start? tell me something buddy...what is the name of this thread...?? You must have had a misunderstanding. My references are cited in multiple publications writen by members of the american college of sports medicine...Not too bad of a source if you ask me. So don't be jumping to conclusions and calling anyone an idiot indirectly before you even read the name of the thread and think about the different opinions published by professionals with medical backgrounds. And now your trying to tell me that significant liver damage due to the use of oral steroids does not really occur? Then sorry buddy, but I think your the idiot.
Y
YellowJacket
Guest
joshisripped said:
By all means, post them. Let me guess, you cant find them now?
No, dumbass, Im telling you that the liver 'damage' is strongly overrated and is not as significant as its blown up to be by the media and those who are totally mislead, ie. you.
your = you're. Ironic, isnt it?
Y
YellowJacket
Guest
Hepatoxicty: Fact or Fiction
By Roy Harper
We all know that the alpha alkylated steroids are hepatotoxic, right….. But, is there actually any truth to this? We’ve been told for years that if you take 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, you will eventually run into liver problems. Never combine 17 aa’s, never go beyond 50mg day, never go longer than 4 weeks, etc. All of this is crap! As I we walk you through some studies, today, you’ll see 17 alpha-alkylated steroids can be hepatotoxic but not to the degree you would think.
To make a steroid hepatotoxic, you need only a small change to a steroid molecule; A strong bond that cannot readily be down broken by enzymes in the liver. This may be a bond at the 17th position, or even at the 1st position (as in methenolone or proviron). Because the liver cannot easily break the steroid down before it is released in to the blood stream, this also results in the steroid to becoming more orally bio-available.
We can see that the liver has to work harder to break down these steroids. Enzymes in the blood and tissue easily metabolize other steroids such as Testosterone. Commonly, this increase in liver activity has been viewed as a harmful process, but as you will see, this increase is, in and of itself, irrelevant. The liver is THE filter of the human body -- it can figure out what to do with just about anything. The only real problem comes in when one keeps their liver at full blast for long periods of time.
Let’s look at some studies showing the hepatotoxicity of steroids. Here's one of my favorites, a study published in 1979[1]. Essentially, researches did a study of deaths caused by hepatic angiosarcoma (a malignant tumor of vascular tissue in the liver) between 1964 and 1974. Researchers found 131 reported cases of death from hepatic angiosarcoma. Out of the 131 cases, 3.1% (4 cases) were reported to be at all related to the use of androgenic-anabolic steroids. Keep in mind that these 4 people could have liver complications before any steroids were used, aka a genetic disposition. In fact there is no proof, in this study at least, that the anabolic-androgenic steroids even caused the hepatic angiosarcoma.
This is the classic case of associating a cause with an effect, without any evidence, aside from both existing. Furthermore, based on the above numbers, there are only 0.4 cases of hepatic angiosarcoma reported each year, by those using AAS. Now consider the number of people on steroids at this time. Now factor in all the people that don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to using AAS, properly. Clearly, this is very week evidence. Lastly there has not been a real increase in hepatic angiosarcoma since the early seventies. Meanwhile, there has been a huge, almost exponential, increase in steroid use during this period.
Another study, that somewhat supports the previous hepatotoxicity case, showed the possibilities of hepatic adenomas(cysts in the liver) caused by androgenic-anabolic steroids[2]. In this study, a Japanese girl was found to have multiple liver lesions after the use of the drug oxymetholone (aka Anadrol). Most everyone “knows” that Anadrol is linked with liver problems, but a closer inspection into this study shows more.
Apparently, this girl, starting at the age of 14, was diagnosed with aplastic anemia. She was prescribed oxymetholone at 30mg per day. This continued for 6 years until the lesions first appeared. Assuming that the girl was most likely around 100 lbs., this was a pretty heavy dosage. If you extrapolated this data out to a 200 - 250lbs. male, that would be taking approximately 60 - 90mg of anadrol per day for 6 years. Ouch!
The researchers also stated that there were only 17 other cases of hepatic adenomas, found in English literature between 1975 and 1998. They failed to mention the causes of these 17 cases, but there is no reason to believe they were all using 17-AA androgens and 17 is certainly miniscule compared to the number of people who have used them. The authors’ finish off the study by saying the following: "This report may be helpful in identifying the population who is at risk of developing hepatic sex hormone-related tumors." So remember, if you're a small 14-year-old girl taking 30mg of Anadrol per day for 6 years, you may be at risk!
Let's move on to some more useful studies. Take for example a 1995 study that showed the toxic effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids in primary rat hepatic cell cultures[3]. In this study the researchers used the following drugs and dosages:
Steroid
1x10^-8M
1x10^-6M
1x10^-4M
19-nortestosterone
0.002744mg
0.2744mg
27.44mg
Fluoxymesterone
0.003365mg
0.3365mg
33.65mg
Testosterone cypionate
0.004126mg
0.4126mg
41.26mg
Stanozolol
0.003285mg
0.3285mg
32.85mg
Danazol
N/A
N/A
N/A
Oxymetholone
0.003325mg
0.3325mg
33.25mg
Testosterone
0.002884mg
0.2884mg
28.84mg
Estradiol
0.0027424mg
0.2724mg
27.24mg
Methyltestosterone
0.003024mg
0.3024mg
30.24mg
As proof of the hepatoxicity they used Lactate dehydrogenase release, neutral red retention, and glutathione depletion to determine plasma membrane damage, cell viability, and possible oxidative injury, respectively.
What they showed was that the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, methyltestosterone, stanozolol and oxymetholone, significantly increased Lactate dehydrogenase release and decreased neutral red retention at the 1x10^-4M dosage for 24h. Both methyltestosterone and oxymetholone also showed depleted glutathione at the 1x10^-4M dosage after 2h, 6h and 8h treatments. In other words they increased liver activity. You may also note that the other, non-alkylated steroids showed no significant difference in any levels. All in all this not only shows that 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are directly “hepatotoxic”, but also non-alkylated steroids are note hepatotoxic at all. But is this a real measure of hepatotoxicity? There is yet to be any correlation between the increase of the above-mentioned measurement and “hepatotoxicity”. Obviously, high dosages of the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are potentially dangerous, but upon closer inspection, the study reveals more.
Take a look, the researchers took cell cultures from the liversse of 60-day-old Sprague-Dawley rats. Not only are rat livers much smaller than human livers, but these were merely cultures. Furthermore, it was the 1x10^-4M concentrations that caused the most changes, but these are approximately 1 to a 1/3 of a full, daily human dosage -- at least for the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids. Even at the 1x10^-6M concentration, there were no significant changes observed. It's apparent that the levels of 17 alpha-alkylated steroids used were potentially toxic, but for a human to take the same amount would be insane. I'm guessing this could translate to maybe 4 grams every 24 hours or 28 grams a week if not more.
What is common so far is we can only prove that any steroid, that is believed to be hepatotoxic, only increases liver activity. I’ll say it again, where is the correlation to hepatotoxicity? We know that if the liver is running at 100% for long periods this may cause complications, but this is akin to any other chemical, which is metabolized by the liver. Ever noticed that liver cancer due to alcoholism takes decades of constant alcohol abuse? It’s apparent that the possibility for hepatotoxicity is there, but for the smart steroid user this is nearly an impossible task.
Another study done in 1999, attempted to show the acute and chronic effects of stanozolol on the liver[4]. In acute treatments of stanozolol, dosages not mentioned, both cytochrome P456 and b5 (microsomal enzymes) levels dropped after 48 hours, and then at 72 hours, levels significant increased. On the other hand, with chronic treatments, time or dosage not mentioned, these microsomal enzymes showed a decrease in levels. Researchers showed that both acute and chronic treatments resulted in "slight to moderate inflammatory or degenerative lesions in centrilobular hepatocytes", but the authors did not note true hepatotoxicity.
How about we look at the other side of the story, the good studies. For instance, in a 1999 study, which looked at the effects of an 8-week cycle of 17 alpha-alkylated steroids[5]. The researchers used fluoxymesterone, methylandrostanolone, or stanozolol on rats at 2mg/kg-body weight, five times a week for 8 weeks. That's 182mg per dosage, for a 200lb man, or 910mg per week. Half of the rats were sedentary and the other were trained on a treadmill.
Levels of NADH-cytochrome c reductase, succinate cytochrome c reductase, and cytochrome oxidase (showing liver activity), increased in the steroid-administered rats, while citrate synthase showed no change. Comparatively, in vitro, the "cytochrome oxidase and citrate synthase activities were insensitive to the AAS, whereas NADH-cytochrome c reductase and succinate cytochrome c reductase activities were partly inhibited."
Furthermore, in vivo, each rat had liver enzyme levels that were within normal range. From this, the researchers determined that the steroid-administered rats, trained or sedentary, did not show "...classical serum indicators of hepatic function". Extrapolating this, 910mg a week for 8 weeks could potentially have little to no effect on the liver in humans.
As for human studies, in 1999 researchers tried to prove that the hepatotoxicity of steroids is overstated[6]. In this study, 15 of the participants were bodybuilders using self-administered steroid dosages and 10 were non-steroid bodybuilders. Serum data was compared to 49 patients with viral hepatitis, and 592 exercising and non-exercising medical students. [
All of the bodybuilders showed increases in aspartate aminotransferase (AST), alanine aminotransferase (ALT) and creatine kinase (CK) while gamma-glutamyltranspeptidase (GGT) levels were in the normal range. In comparison, hepatitis patients showed increased ALT, AST, and GGT levels while the control exercising medical students showed increased CK levels. From this, the researchers suggested that it is the correlation between AST, ALT and GGT that shows true liver dysfunction. Keep in mind, we can only guess that the 15 steroid users were using 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, and we do not know what the dosages that were used., but common sense tells us the results are likely relevant.
Last but not least, a simple study done in 1996, showed the long term benefits after taking a 3 month break from steroids[7]. 16 bodybuilders using steroids were compared to 12 bodybuilders that were not. After a three-month drug withdrawal, the researchers showed that levels of liver enzymes, types not mentioned, returned to the same as the non users. Again the dosages are left to the reader’s imagination and we can only guess that the 16 steroid users were using 17 alpha-alkylated steroids.
So what can we conclude from all of this? First off, 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are hepatotoxic in high dosages taken for a long time. On the other hand, short cycles and small dosages appear to be perfectly safe. I suggest that maximum dosages should be 500mg to 900mg per day. They should be cycled for perhaps 8 weeks at a time, and if needed a 3-month break from them should be used. Using the above-mentioned techniques, your liver can be healthy for a long time. Simply put, the hysteria surrounding “hepatoxic” steroids, is based mainly on folk lore.
References:
[1] Lancet 1979 Nov 24;2(8152):1120-3, Hepatic angiosarcoma associated with androgenic-anabolic steroids. Falk H, Thomas LB, Popper H, Ishak KG.
[2] J Gastroenterol 2000;35(7):557-62, Multiple hepatic adenomas caused by long-term administration of androgenic steroids for aplastic anemia in association with familial adenomatous polyposis. Nakao A, Sakagami K, Nakata Y, Komazawa K, Amimoto T, Nakashima K, Isozaki H, Takakura N, Tanaka N.
[3] J Pharmacol Toxicol Methods 1995 Aug;33(4):187-95, Toxic effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids in primary rat hepatic cell cultures. Welder AA, Robertson JW, Melchert RB.
[4] Arch Toxicol 1999 Nov;73(8-9):465-72, Evaluation of acute and chronic hepatotoxic effects exerted by anabolic-androgenic steroid stanozolol in adult male rats. Boada LD, Zumbado M, Torres S, Lopez A, Diaz-Chico BN, Cabrera JJ, Luzardo OP.
[5] Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1999 Feb;31(2):243-50, Rat liver lysosomal and mitochondrial activities are modified by anabolic-androgenic steroids. Molano F, Saborido A, Delgado J, Moran M, Megias A.
[6] Clin J Sport Med 1999 Jan;9(1):34-9, Anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity: is it overstated? Dickerman RD, Pertusi RM, Zachariah NY, Dufour DR, McConathy WJ.
[7] Int J Sports Med 1996 Aug;17(6):429-33, Body composition, cardiovascular risk factors and liver function in long-term androgenic-anabolic steroids using bodybuilders
By Roy Harper
We all know that the alpha alkylated steroids are hepatotoxic, right….. But, is there actually any truth to this? We’ve been told for years that if you take 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, you will eventually run into liver problems. Never combine 17 aa’s, never go beyond 50mg day, never go longer than 4 weeks, etc. All of this is crap! As I we walk you through some studies, today, you’ll see 17 alpha-alkylated steroids can be hepatotoxic but not to the degree you would think.
To make a steroid hepatotoxic, you need only a small change to a steroid molecule; A strong bond that cannot readily be down broken by enzymes in the liver. This may be a bond at the 17th position, or even at the 1st position (as in methenolone or proviron). Because the liver cannot easily break the steroid down before it is released in to the blood stream, this also results in the steroid to becoming more orally bio-available.
We can see that the liver has to work harder to break down these steroids. Enzymes in the blood and tissue easily metabolize other steroids such as Testosterone. Commonly, this increase in liver activity has been viewed as a harmful process, but as you will see, this increase is, in and of itself, irrelevant. The liver is THE filter of the human body -- it can figure out what to do with just about anything. The only real problem comes in when one keeps their liver at full blast for long periods of time.
Let’s look at some studies showing the hepatotoxicity of steroids. Here's one of my favorites, a study published in 1979[1]. Essentially, researches did a study of deaths caused by hepatic angiosarcoma (a malignant tumor of vascular tissue in the liver) between 1964 and 1974. Researchers found 131 reported cases of death from hepatic angiosarcoma. Out of the 131 cases, 3.1% (4 cases) were reported to be at all related to the use of androgenic-anabolic steroids. Keep in mind that these 4 people could have liver complications before any steroids were used, aka a genetic disposition. In fact there is no proof, in this study at least, that the anabolic-androgenic steroids even caused the hepatic angiosarcoma.
This is the classic case of associating a cause with an effect, without any evidence, aside from both existing. Furthermore, based on the above numbers, there are only 0.4 cases of hepatic angiosarcoma reported each year, by those using AAS. Now consider the number of people on steroids at this time. Now factor in all the people that don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to using AAS, properly. Clearly, this is very week evidence. Lastly there has not been a real increase in hepatic angiosarcoma since the early seventies. Meanwhile, there has been a huge, almost exponential, increase in steroid use during this period.
Another study, that somewhat supports the previous hepatotoxicity case, showed the possibilities of hepatic adenomas(cysts in the liver) caused by androgenic-anabolic steroids[2]. In this study, a Japanese girl was found to have multiple liver lesions after the use of the drug oxymetholone (aka Anadrol). Most everyone “knows” that Anadrol is linked with liver problems, but a closer inspection into this study shows more.
Apparently, this girl, starting at the age of 14, was diagnosed with aplastic anemia. She was prescribed oxymetholone at 30mg per day. This continued for 6 years until the lesions first appeared. Assuming that the girl was most likely around 100 lbs., this was a pretty heavy dosage. If you extrapolated this data out to a 200 - 250lbs. male, that would be taking approximately 60 - 90mg of anadrol per day for 6 years. Ouch!
The researchers also stated that there were only 17 other cases of hepatic adenomas, found in English literature between 1975 and 1998. They failed to mention the causes of these 17 cases, but there is no reason to believe they were all using 17-AA androgens and 17 is certainly miniscule compared to the number of people who have used them. The authors’ finish off the study by saying the following: "This report may be helpful in identifying the population who is at risk of developing hepatic sex hormone-related tumors." So remember, if you're a small 14-year-old girl taking 30mg of Anadrol per day for 6 years, you may be at risk!
Let's move on to some more useful studies. Take for example a 1995 study that showed the toxic effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids in primary rat hepatic cell cultures[3]. In this study the researchers used the following drugs and dosages:
Steroid
1x10^-8M
1x10^-6M
1x10^-4M
19-nortestosterone
0.002744mg
0.2744mg
27.44mg
Fluoxymesterone
0.003365mg
0.3365mg
33.65mg
Testosterone cypionate
0.004126mg
0.4126mg
41.26mg
Stanozolol
0.003285mg
0.3285mg
32.85mg
Danazol
N/A
N/A
N/A
Oxymetholone
0.003325mg
0.3325mg
33.25mg
Testosterone
0.002884mg
0.2884mg
28.84mg
Estradiol
0.0027424mg
0.2724mg
27.24mg
Methyltestosterone
0.003024mg
0.3024mg
30.24mg
As proof of the hepatoxicity they used Lactate dehydrogenase release, neutral red retention, and glutathione depletion to determine plasma membrane damage, cell viability, and possible oxidative injury, respectively.
What they showed was that the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, methyltestosterone, stanozolol and oxymetholone, significantly increased Lactate dehydrogenase release and decreased neutral red retention at the 1x10^-4M dosage for 24h. Both methyltestosterone and oxymetholone also showed depleted glutathione at the 1x10^-4M dosage after 2h, 6h and 8h treatments. In other words they increased liver activity. You may also note that the other, non-alkylated steroids showed no significant difference in any levels. All in all this not only shows that 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are directly “hepatotoxic”, but also non-alkylated steroids are note hepatotoxic at all. But is this a real measure of hepatotoxicity? There is yet to be any correlation between the increase of the above-mentioned measurement and “hepatotoxicity”. Obviously, high dosages of the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are potentially dangerous, but upon closer inspection, the study reveals more.
Take a look, the researchers took cell cultures from the liversse of 60-day-old Sprague-Dawley rats. Not only are rat livers much smaller than human livers, but these were merely cultures. Furthermore, it was the 1x10^-4M concentrations that caused the most changes, but these are approximately 1 to a 1/3 of a full, daily human dosage -- at least for the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids. Even at the 1x10^-6M concentration, there were no significant changes observed. It's apparent that the levels of 17 alpha-alkylated steroids used were potentially toxic, but for a human to take the same amount would be insane. I'm guessing this could translate to maybe 4 grams every 24 hours or 28 grams a week if not more.
What is common so far is we can only prove that any steroid, that is believed to be hepatotoxic, only increases liver activity. I’ll say it again, where is the correlation to hepatotoxicity? We know that if the liver is running at 100% for long periods this may cause complications, but this is akin to any other chemical, which is metabolized by the liver. Ever noticed that liver cancer due to alcoholism takes decades of constant alcohol abuse? It’s apparent that the possibility for hepatotoxicity is there, but for the smart steroid user this is nearly an impossible task.
Another study done in 1999, attempted to show the acute and chronic effects of stanozolol on the liver[4]. In acute treatments of stanozolol, dosages not mentioned, both cytochrome P456 and b5 (microsomal enzymes) levels dropped after 48 hours, and then at 72 hours, levels significant increased. On the other hand, with chronic treatments, time or dosage not mentioned, these microsomal enzymes showed a decrease in levels. Researchers showed that both acute and chronic treatments resulted in "slight to moderate inflammatory or degenerative lesions in centrilobular hepatocytes", but the authors did not note true hepatotoxicity.
How about we look at the other side of the story, the good studies. For instance, in a 1999 study, which looked at the effects of an 8-week cycle of 17 alpha-alkylated steroids[5]. The researchers used fluoxymesterone, methylandrostanolone, or stanozolol on rats at 2mg/kg-body weight, five times a week for 8 weeks. That's 182mg per dosage, for a 200lb man, or 910mg per week. Half of the rats were sedentary and the other were trained on a treadmill.
Levels of NADH-cytochrome c reductase, succinate cytochrome c reductase, and cytochrome oxidase (showing liver activity), increased in the steroid-administered rats, while citrate synthase showed no change. Comparatively, in vitro, the "cytochrome oxidase and citrate synthase activities were insensitive to the AAS, whereas NADH-cytochrome c reductase and succinate cytochrome c reductase activities were partly inhibited."
Furthermore, in vivo, each rat had liver enzyme levels that were within normal range. From this, the researchers determined that the steroid-administered rats, trained or sedentary, did not show "...classical serum indicators of hepatic function". Extrapolating this, 910mg a week for 8 weeks could potentially have little to no effect on the liver in humans.
As for human studies, in 1999 researchers tried to prove that the hepatotoxicity of steroids is overstated[6]. In this study, 15 of the participants were bodybuilders using self-administered steroid dosages and 10 were non-steroid bodybuilders. Serum data was compared to 49 patients with viral hepatitis, and 592 exercising and non-exercising medical students. [
All of the bodybuilders showed increases in aspartate aminotransferase (AST), alanine aminotransferase (ALT) and creatine kinase (CK) while gamma-glutamyltranspeptidase (GGT) levels were in the normal range. In comparison, hepatitis patients showed increased ALT, AST, and GGT levels while the control exercising medical students showed increased CK levels. From this, the researchers suggested that it is the correlation between AST, ALT and GGT that shows true liver dysfunction. Keep in mind, we can only guess that the 15 steroid users were using 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, and we do not know what the dosages that were used., but common sense tells us the results are likely relevant.
Last but not least, a simple study done in 1996, showed the long term benefits after taking a 3 month break from steroids[7]. 16 bodybuilders using steroids were compared to 12 bodybuilders that were not. After a three-month drug withdrawal, the researchers showed that levels of liver enzymes, types not mentioned, returned to the same as the non users. Again the dosages are left to the reader’s imagination and we can only guess that the 16 steroid users were using 17 alpha-alkylated steroids.
So what can we conclude from all of this? First off, 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are hepatotoxic in high dosages taken for a long time. On the other hand, short cycles and small dosages appear to be perfectly safe. I suggest that maximum dosages should be 500mg to 900mg per day. They should be cycled for perhaps 8 weeks at a time, and if needed a 3-month break from them should be used. Using the above-mentioned techniques, your liver can be healthy for a long time. Simply put, the hysteria surrounding “hepatoxic” steroids, is based mainly on folk lore.
References:
[1] Lancet 1979 Nov 24;2(8152):1120-3, Hepatic angiosarcoma associated with androgenic-anabolic steroids. Falk H, Thomas LB, Popper H, Ishak KG.
[2] J Gastroenterol 2000;35(7):557-62, Multiple hepatic adenomas caused by long-term administration of androgenic steroids for aplastic anemia in association with familial adenomatous polyposis. Nakao A, Sakagami K, Nakata Y, Komazawa K, Amimoto T, Nakashima K, Isozaki H, Takakura N, Tanaka N.
[3] J Pharmacol Toxicol Methods 1995 Aug;33(4):187-95, Toxic effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids in primary rat hepatic cell cultures. Welder AA, Robertson JW, Melchert RB.
[4] Arch Toxicol 1999 Nov;73(8-9):465-72, Evaluation of acute and chronic hepatotoxic effects exerted by anabolic-androgenic steroid stanozolol in adult male rats. Boada LD, Zumbado M, Torres S, Lopez A, Diaz-Chico BN, Cabrera JJ, Luzardo OP.
[5] Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1999 Feb;31(2):243-50, Rat liver lysosomal and mitochondrial activities are modified by anabolic-androgenic steroids. Molano F, Saborido A, Delgado J, Moran M, Megias A.
[6] Clin J Sport Med 1999 Jan;9(1):34-9, Anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity: is it overstated? Dickerman RD, Pertusi RM, Zachariah NY, Dufour DR, McConathy WJ.
[7] Int J Sports Med 1996 Aug;17(6):429-33, Body composition, cardiovascular risk factors and liver function in long-term androgenic-anabolic steroids using bodybuilders
josh81
Jiu-Jitsu Blue
liver damage is strongly overrated?
Oh Jesus...
That's enough for today. I see no reason to keep posting in this argument.
You can go catch gramatical errors as much as you'd like, although I feel mature enough not to associate with someone with such selfish and uneducated views such as yours. Liver damage leads to other medical deficiencies as you may not know...And in the long run you end up with much harm to your body. And I'm quite sorry, although I think that health is a very important thing to have in life. Goodbye to you.
Oh Jesus...
That's enough for today. I see no reason to keep posting in this argument.
You can go catch gramatical errors as much as you'd like, although I feel mature enough not to associate with someone with such selfish and uneducated views such as yours. Liver damage leads to other medical deficiencies as you may not know...And in the long run you end up with much harm to your body. And I'm quite sorry, although I think that health is a very important thing to have in life. Goodbye to you.
Y
YellowJacket
Guest
joshisripped said:
Doesnt appear to be much of an argument, youve offered nothing but your opinion.
Uneducated? Ive had more education in the last 5 years than youve had in your lifetime my friend. If youre going to call someone an idiot at least make sure you have placed it in a grammitcally correct fashion.
Well no shit, but thats besides the point. You have yet to prove the extent of the liver damage. Im still waiting on these journal abstracts. If you cant provide them, dont bother posting again, arguing your opinion is like sucking tit through a sweater.
josh81
Jiu-Jitsu Blue
Do anabolic steroids cause liver damage?
Yes, depending on the type of anabolic steroid used, the
amount, and the length of time taken.(1,2) When the
liver is under stress or damaged, increased amounts of certain
chemicals (SGOT, SGPT, and others) are found in the bloodstream.
"Liver function tests" detect these chemicals as a measure of
stress and possible liver damage. Anabolic steroid abusers have up
to twice the level of these chemicals in their blood compared to
non-users.(1) These values may return to normal if the
person stops taking anabolic steroids.(1) SGOT and SGPT are
released while the liver is being injured. Once the damaging
process is over, no further release occurs. Whether the damaged
tissue repairs itself is unclear. Thus the damage done may
continue to exist despite normal SGOT and SGPT blood levels.
Oral steroids are more difficult for the liver to metabolize
than injectable steroids. Liver cells are damaged as the liver
attempts to break down the oral agents.(3) There are
changes in the structure of the liver with continued use, and the
liver's ability to rid the body of wastes (excretory function) is
decreased.(4) In one type of toxicity, blood-filled pockets
open inside the liver as a result of steroid use. This is known
medically as "peliosis hepatitis," and although rare, is not
restricted to high doses or long-term use of steroids. (2,5,6)
Injectable steroids do not appear to cause direct chemical
damage like oral steroids. However, the injection can carry many
kinds of bacteria and viruses past the protective skin and into the
blood. Infectious hepatitis is a liver disease transmitted by
dirty needles and contact with contaminated blood. It can be life-
threatening (Note: Any infectious disease including sexually
transmitted diseases and AIDS can be passed through the needle).
Anabolic steroids may be tumor growth promoters
5,7)
Steroids promote the growth certain liver cells into "nodules"
which closely resemble tumors.(5) If steroid use is stopped,
often the nodule will go away by itself.(4,5) However, at least
three people have died from tumors thought to have been caused by
their steroid abuse.(4,8)
A chemical process called "aromatisation" changes anabolic
steroids into female hormones called "estrogens."(8) The
liver deactivates these estrogens, but consumption of alcohol slows
the process down so that the estrogens cause breast development in
males.(7,9) This condition is known medically as
"gynecomastia." Some researchers believe that gynecomastia in a
steroid abuser may also suggest liver damage.(8,10)
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REFERENCES 1. Oconnor JS, Baldini FD, Skinner JS, Einstein M. Blood chemistry of current and previous anabolic steroid users. Military Medicine 1990 Feb;155(2):72-5. 2. Smith DA, Perry PJ. The efficacy of ergogenic agents in athletic competition. part 1: androgenic-anabolic steroids. Annals Pharmacother 1992 Apr;26:520-8. 3. Wagner JC. Abuse of drugs used to enhance athletic performance. American Journal Of Hospital Pharmacy 1989 Oct;46:2059-67. 4. Yesalis CE, Wright JE, Bahrke MS. Epidemiological and policy issues in the measurement of the long term health effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids. Sports Medicine 1989 Sep;8(3):129-38. 5. Creagh TM, Rubin A, Evans DJ. Hepatic tumours induced by anabolic steroids in an athlete. J Clin Pathol 1988;41:441-3. 6. Wilson JD. Androgen abuse by athletes. Endocrine Reviews 1988;9(2):181-99. 7. Johnson MD. Steroids. Adolescent Med 1991 Feb;2(1):79-93. 8. Hickson RC, Ball KL, Falduto MT. Adverse effects of anabolic steroids. Med Toxicol Adv Drug Experience 1989 Jul- Aug;4(4):254-71. 9. Giannini AJ, Miller N, Kocjan DK. Treating steroid abuse - a psychiatric perspective. Clinical Pediatrics 1991 Sep;30(9):538-42. 10. Johnson MD. Anabolic steroid use in adolescent athletes. Pediatr Clin North Am 1990 Oct;37(5):1111-23. by Trent Tschirgi, R. Ph. (c) 1992 University of Maryland Office of Substance Abuse Studies. All Rights Reserved.
Be sure to read the entire thing. Thanks.
Yes, depending on the type of anabolic steroid used, the
amount, and the length of time taken.(1,2) When the
liver is under stress or damaged, increased amounts of certain
chemicals (SGOT, SGPT, and others) are found in the bloodstream.
"Liver function tests" detect these chemicals as a measure of
stress and possible liver damage. Anabolic steroid abusers have up
to twice the level of these chemicals in their blood compared to
non-users.(1) These values may return to normal if the
person stops taking anabolic steroids.(1) SGOT and SGPT are
released while the liver is being injured. Once the damaging
process is over, no further release occurs. Whether the damaged
tissue repairs itself is unclear. Thus the damage done may
continue to exist despite normal SGOT and SGPT blood levels.
Oral steroids are more difficult for the liver to metabolize
than injectable steroids. Liver cells are damaged as the liver
attempts to break down the oral agents.(3) There are
changes in the structure of the liver with continued use, and the
liver's ability to rid the body of wastes (excretory function) is
decreased.(4) In one type of toxicity, blood-filled pockets
open inside the liver as a result of steroid use. This is known
medically as "peliosis hepatitis," and although rare, is not
restricted to high doses or long-term use of steroids. (2,5,6)
Injectable steroids do not appear to cause direct chemical
damage like oral steroids. However, the injection can carry many
kinds of bacteria and viruses past the protective skin and into the
blood. Infectious hepatitis is a liver disease transmitted by
dirty needles and contact with contaminated blood. It can be life-
threatening (Note: Any infectious disease including sexually
transmitted diseases and AIDS can be passed through the needle).
Anabolic steroids may be tumor growth promoters
5,7) Steroids promote the growth certain liver cells into "nodules"
which closely resemble tumors.(5) If steroid use is stopped,
often the nodule will go away by itself.(4,5) However, at least
three people have died from tumors thought to have been caused by
their steroid abuse.(4,8)
A chemical process called "aromatisation" changes anabolic
steroids into female hormones called "estrogens."(8) The
liver deactivates these estrogens, but consumption of alcohol slows
the process down so that the estrogens cause breast development in
males.(7,9) This condition is known medically as
"gynecomastia." Some researchers believe that gynecomastia in a
steroid abuser may also suggest liver damage.(8,10)
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Home
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REFERENCES 1. Oconnor JS, Baldini FD, Skinner JS, Einstein M. Blood chemistry of current and previous anabolic steroid users. Military Medicine 1990 Feb;155(2):72-5. 2. Smith DA, Perry PJ. The efficacy of ergogenic agents in athletic competition. part 1: androgenic-anabolic steroids. Annals Pharmacother 1992 Apr;26:520-8. 3. Wagner JC. Abuse of drugs used to enhance athletic performance. American Journal Of Hospital Pharmacy 1989 Oct;46:2059-67. 4. Yesalis CE, Wright JE, Bahrke MS. Epidemiological and policy issues in the measurement of the long term health effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids. Sports Medicine 1989 Sep;8(3):129-38. 5. Creagh TM, Rubin A, Evans DJ. Hepatic tumours induced by anabolic steroids in an athlete. J Clin Pathol 1988;41:441-3. 6. Wilson JD. Androgen abuse by athletes. Endocrine Reviews 1988;9(2):181-99. 7. Johnson MD. Steroids. Adolescent Med 1991 Feb;2(1):79-93. 8. Hickson RC, Ball KL, Falduto MT. Adverse effects of anabolic steroids. Med Toxicol Adv Drug Experience 1989 Jul- Aug;4(4):254-71. 9. Giannini AJ, Miller N, Kocjan DK. Treating steroid abuse - a psychiatric perspective. Clinical Pediatrics 1991 Sep;30(9):538-42. 10. Johnson MD. Anabolic steroid use in adolescent athletes. Pediatr Clin North Am 1990 Oct;37(5):1111-23. by Trent Tschirgi, R. Ph. (c) 1992 University of Maryland Office of Substance Abuse Studies. All Rights Reserved.
Be sure to read the entire thing. Thanks.
StoneColdNTO
Administrator
Let's keep it civil boys.............
Y
YellowJacket
Guest
No, your references are old, out of date and inaccurate, and you cited an article from www.anabolicsmall.com.... which is comical since they sell Testosterone! which is actually Andro-Shock, mild pro hormones which you dismissed earlier. Even more funny is that theyre all oral, which you said are damaging to the liver.
LMAO! Is this really one of your references? Wow, no shit they have higher levels than non-users, brilliant.
Oh christ, Im not touching this one.
Still doesnt say to what extent, useless. Im not even reading the rest of this shitty article. Be weary of where you get your information, I dont thikn anabolicsmall.com is an accurate resource.
This was much too easy.
LMAO! Is this really one of your references? Wow, no shit they have higher levels than non-users, brilliant.
Oh christ, Im not touching this one.
Still doesnt say to what extent, useless. Im not even reading the rest of this shitty article. Be weary of where you get your information, I dont thikn anabolicsmall.com is an accurate resource.
This was much too easy.
josh81
Jiu-Jitsu Blue
what you are trying to prove makes absolutely no sense...you've made something huge out of nothing. I just came into this thread expressing my own opinion that taking prohormones orally has a greater number of side effects than injecting anabolics, and can be quite damaging towards the liver. And you somehow figure out a way bring this to a whole new level, competing with two sources that are just as accurate as one another. No one has 100% proof of anything at this point, and we can all likely agree on that. You seem to be begging me now for a source that says to what extent oral prohormones can damage the liver. Quite frankly, I don't give two shits, but what I do believe is that they are quite harmful towards the liver, as stated in tons of references including your own. Leave it at that.
Y
YellowJacket
Guest
joshisripped said:
Exactly, your opinion, which is unfounded and wholly incorrect.
Prove it. People say this all the time and eat their words in a matter of time because they simply cannot back it up. Another one bites the dust (sorry, had to add that in, its playing on the radio right now)
Um no. Roy Harper is brilliant, much smarter than some douche nozzle writing for anabolicmall.com. Ha. Go to www.mindandmuscle.net and read some of Roy's posts, I think youll agree.
You DO give two shits (maybe 3) thats why you posted in this thread to begin with. Now that youre backed into a corner, thats your scapegoat. This debate really need not go any further as all it is now is some random bashing and who's got bigger balls, which I dont have time for. They are harmful to the liver, so is Tylenol, so are a lot of things..... but to what extent?
Y
YellowJacket
Guest
joshisripped said:
Ah, the juvenile approach. You said phs are more harmful to the liver than injectable steroids, no shit. Then you said orals are hard on the liver, that I didnt disagree with, but you make it sound like youre going to shit out your liver in a week. I do not believe orals are as devastating to the liver as some people think, as shown above. You cannot provide proof to disprove my point, so you avoid it. You said you had many citations that could prove your point, yet you cite a shitty article from anabolicmall.com, who is a rip-off site selling PHs and naming them after steroids. You dug yourself a deep hole my friend.
Ill let you off the hook this time, if youve learned your lesson
