Safest Peak T Level To Remain At Indefinitely With TRT

[Hoodlum]

At the advice of some other forum members, I'm posting this here instead of the testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) forum so it can be discussed more freely...

So after being diagnosed with secondary hypogonadism, I'm self-administering testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), 250mg test cyp split into 2 weekly doses. Last check, this had put my total T level somewhere around the 900 range. In the 3 months since I've started, I've put on about 8lb of muscle, and my libido, which had previously been that of an 80 year old man, is back to where it should be.

When I first started, on gels, there was a period of time where I literally felt amazing - confident, sex drive through the roof. It has since settled down to just a sort of "good buzz", but if by raising my dose, I could feel like that again, without adversely affecting my health, then I'd be keen to do so.

Specifically, I want to maximise benefits for libido, and gains from the gym by running at a total T level that's as high as "safely" possible in the long run. (or any other way to maximise libido).

I understand that the higher you keep your T level, the more health implications there are - hematocrit, more Aromatase inhibitor (AI) required, potential hypertrophy of the heart etc. But I feel there must be a "sweet spot" of a level that is relatively safe to remain at indefinitely, without incurring too many risks. 1500 for argument's sake.

Some suggested that I run cycles, switching up to 400mg/week for 12 weeks, and then back down again to 250mg/week - but this isn't quite what I was looking for, as I want to maximise the benefits to my libido especially all of the time. I want to feel as good as I can, for as much of the time as possible, without seriously compromising my health, if that makes sense. Flying close to the sun, I believe Megatron called it.

I know "your mileage may vary", and everyone's physiology is different, but I was just after a rough general case answer of a ballpark figure above which the health implications become severe.

Cheers for any info

 

[Austinite]

Hoodlum,

You'll be fighting a never ending battle. If you move to 350 mg, in 3 to 6 months you're going to feel exactly as you do now. It sounds from your post, that you're missing the confidence that may have been a psychological effect of a strong sex drive. At this stage I would consider introducing Cialis into your protocol. 5 to 10 mg daily will do wonders for you. It's a Nitric Oxide booster so you can expect great workouts and vascularity (if you're fairly lean), a healthy prostate, lower blood pressure and of course, on demand healthy erections.

Although self-treatment is not quite considered testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), you should get your protocol dialed in for 2 to 3 years before you dive into a heavy cycle. Cycle management is quite a different animal and without a proven record in estrogen management, a cycle could prove to be cumbersome.

On a side note, how are you measuring your muscle gains? I've never heard of anyone gaining 8 lbs in such little time. Very impressive.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Hoodlum]

Hoodlum,

You'll be fighting a never ending battle. If you move to 350 mg, in 3 to 6 months you're going to feel exactly as you do now. It sounds from your post, that you're missing the confidence that may have been a psychological effect of a strong sex drive. At this stage I would consider introducing Cialis into your protocol. 5 to 10 mg daily will do wonders for you. It's a Nitric Oxide booster so you can expect great workouts and vascularity (if you're fairly lean), a healthy prostate, lower blood pressure and of course, on demand healthy erections.

Although self-treatment is not quite considered testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), you should get your protocol dialed in for 2 to 3 years before you dive into a heavy cycle. Cycle management is quite a different animal and without a proven record in estrogen management, a cycle could prove to be cumbersome.

On a side note, how are you measuring your muscle gains? I've never heard of anyone gaining 8 lbs in such little time. Very impressive.

Best of luck to you.

Thanks for the answer - very astute. You're completely correct that I'm missing the confidence from having a rampant sex drive. I've struggled with libido on and off my whole life, and when I first started on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), the surge in sex drive did absolute wonders for my confidence. I just wondered why it had tailed off and wanted to get it back to the awesome level it was at, but as you say, one probably just gets used to their dosage - raising it would be a short term fix before it plateau'd again.

I've got a load of cialis already actually, and was taking the odd half tablet here and there to give me a boost when I was tired. It felt like "cheating" though - I wanted my sex drive to be rampant just through testosterone. A foolish distinction perhaps - vanity of wanting to be virile from being a "real man" perhaps - especially when I am only a "real man" through taking an artificial source of testosterone anyway.

I'm half convinced I've knocked my E2 too low at the moment. I was taking a dose to control aromotisation from the gels I was on when I first started testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) (my initial level came back at 3x the max reference range, and I had puffy nipples), and 0.25 adex EOD had plonked it right down at the bottom of the reference range (18.5 pg/mL, range 12 - 42.5) 4 weeks later. I then switched fully to injections (after a transition period where I was using both) a few weeks ago - which obviously have a far lower amount of aromatisation - whilst continuing the same Aromatase inhibitor (AI) dose, and my libido is dying a death, after being utterly rampant for a while. I need to go and get my bloods run this week to check it out.

I ended up going down the self-treatment route because I live in the UK, and the only treatment I was offered here was nebido every 7 weeks with no Aromatase inhibitor (AI) or HCG. I'm a 31 year old man, and don't want to lose my balls just yet. The testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) "industry" over here is way behind in the US.

I had body fat measurements taken with a 7-point caliper site by my housemate, who's a personal trainer. About 3 months ago, I was sat at 184lb @ 12% bf, last check was a week ago and I was up to 190lb @ 10% bf, and my weight just keeps going up whilst the fat comes off and my max lifts keep going up. Obviously calipers are only roughly as accurate as something like a dexa scan, but I can see the benefits obviously myself, and everyone who knows me has commented on how much bigger I've got in a short time. I'm also taking 100mcg T3 daily at the moment, which I think is helping massively.

 

[Austinite]

I'm smiling right now because I'm loving the grammatical correctness you possess.

I understand your need to self treat as I've heard of the difficulties folks face in the UK. On the other hand, I am desperately waiting Nebido's approval for marketing in the United States. I'm currently prescribed both Testosterone Cypionate and Nandrolone Decanoate as part of my testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) protocol. I've managed to rid myself of having to use an aromatase inhibitor by injecting testosterone subcutaneously. I do however, use an over-the-counter drug called DIM that keeps me stable and in range.

Back to you, I think you'll benefit from a consistent dose of Cialis. Once you have it flowing through your system regularly, you'll experience your elevated libido again; without the risk of estrogen conversion from increasing testosterone dose. Unlike viagra, you'll only come to an erection when stimulated, rather than prolonged periods and erections at random. Sounds nice, but frankly, it can get quite annoying.

You seem to have a really good head on your shoulders. I hope that you'll give Cialis a fair try and it resolves the issue at hand.

 

[Hoodlum]

I'm smiling right now because I'm loving the grammatical correctness you possess.

I understand your need to self treat as I've heard of the difficulties folks face in the UK. On the other hand, I am desperately waiting Nebido's approval for marketing in the United States. I'm currently prescribed both Testosterone Cypionate and Nandrolone Decanoate as part of my testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) protocol. I've managed to rid myself of having to use an aromatase inhibitor by injecting testosterone subcutaneously. I do however, use an over-the-counter drug called DIM that keeps me stable and in range.

Back to you, I think you'll benefit from a consistent dose of Cialis. Once you have it flowing through your system regularly, you'll experience your elevated libido again; without the risk of estrogen conversion from increasing testosterone dose. Unlike viagra, you'll only come to an erection when stimulated, rather than prolonged periods and erections at random. Sounds nice, but frankly, it can get quite annoying.

You seem to have a really good head on your shoulders. I hope that you'll give Cialis a fair try and it resolves the issue at hand.

Haha, I am something of a perfectionist in my approach to everything I undertake, from self-administering testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), to attempting to construct grammatically correct posts to the utmost of my ability. I do write a blog as well which has helped develop my writing skills and general ability to articulate over the last 12 months.

I'll give the daily cialis a shot. Since I'm already on an ever-increasing daily smorgasbord of pills, shots and supplements, what's one more between friends. I had hoped that it wouldn't been necessary given that I was getting by fine without for the first few months of my new regime, but then there is always a large psychological component to libido as well, and once I've gotten it into my head that I've got a problem with it then it will have the tendency to become something of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

As something of an aside, with regard to the subcutaneous shots, I had also opted down this route initially as my preferred method of injection (which also lends evidence to my theory that I've been taking way too much AI). However, as my body fat reduces, I'm finding it harder and harder to get the needle in somewhere without causing pain. I had been injecting into the patch of fat on my lower abdomen. I'd tried the "love handle area" also, but it causes swelling more often than not. I'm using 0.5" 29 gauge insulin syringes, so there's no issue with a giant needle.

I switched to IM for my most recent shot, into my quad, which seemed to go well, but then left me feeling like someone had given me a nuclear dead leg for the following 48 hours, which is only just now beginning to subside. I'm not particularly keen to repeat this experience - are there any other good sites for subq jabs which can be used when leaning out, or do I just need to take a bigger pinch of skin to ensure I'm not sticking the needle into anything else? Also, when one becomes very lean, towards the 6% level, I would imagine that you would be able to see the oil sitting in a bump beneath the skin? Obviously this would depend on the amount you are injecting, but with 0.4ml I can already feel a hard patch sitting just below the surface that takes around 5 days to dissipate.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, I appreciate the information.

 

[Austinite]

I really and truly believe that Cialis will soon become a standard component in testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) protocols offered by longevity clinics. The benefits are wide and studies continue to empower the drug.

It certainly becomes more difficult to inject subcutaneously as your body fat decreases. I'm surprised that 0.4ml in volume would cause a lump. I generally get those when I exceed 0.5ml. You could always inject in the gluteal area as well. Whatever you decide, be sure to avoid the calves. Intramuscular injections will be fine if you monitor your estradiol levels. As for the discomfort from the quad injection, it will get better over time. Your next injection, should you choose the same spot, should be easier.

Going back to the libido issue, it's rare that one would suggest psychological interference within themselves. Generally, folks will always look elsewhere and avoid the possibility of a psychological diagnosis. This is indicative of more certainty towards the issue. That being said, I suggest that you do a little bit of research on serotonin. This is the most common issue with psychologically affected libidos. In my case, I suffered retarded ejaculation. L-Tryptophan; the amino acid, was my solution.

Just some food for thought.

 

[Hoodlum]

I really and truly believe that Cialis will soon become a standard component in testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) protocols offered by longevity clinics. The benefits are wide and studies continue to empower the drug.

It certainly becomes more difficult to inject subcutaneously as your body fat decreases. I'm surprised that 0.4ml in volume would cause a lump. I generally get those when I exceed 0.5ml. You could always inject in the gluteal area as well. Whatever you decide, be sure to avoid the calves. Intramuscular injections will be fine if you monitor your estradiol levels. As for the discomfort from the quad injection, it will get better over time. Your next injection, should you choose the same spot, should be easier.

Going back to the libido issue, it's rare that one would suggest psychological interference within themselves. Generally, folks will always look elsewhere and avoid the possibility of a psychological diagnosis. This is indicative of more certainty towards the issue. That being said, I suggest that you do a little bit of research on serotonin. This is the most common issue with psychologically affected libidos. In my case, I suffered retarded ejaculation. L-Tryptophan; the amino acid, was my solution.

Just some food for thought.

Interesting, food for thought indeed.

I'm acutely aware of the inner working of my own mind, perhaps to a fault sometimes, and am always keen to face up to any problems and not shy away behind my ego.

When my libido is good, I have no problems in any department (apart from perhaps some difficulty ejaculating due to extreme loss of sensitivity from circumcision) and am able to lose myself in the moment.

When my libido is low however, such as when I am tired or feel like I am having a "low T day", I get very much "inside my head" during the act, thinking "Oh no, I hope I don't lose my erection. I'm losing it aren't I. Yep, there it goes. Well, this is shit." Having these thoughts running through my head completely prevents me from just "going with it" and enjoying the experience for what it is. It's initially a physiological problem, then compounded by a psychological component, hence my assertion that I believe it was playing a role.

Cialis just blows straight through all of this and lets me perform to the fullest extent, so I'll take your advice and just start supplementing daily with it.

edit: actually, you know what, I was just reading the Wikipedia entry on delayed ejaculation, and it describes me down to a T (no pun intended). I've suffered from this my whole life. How did you come to the conclusion that you needed L-Tryptophan?

 

[Austinite]

Interesting, food for thought indeed.

I'm acutely aware of the inner working of my own mind, perhaps to a fault sometimes, and am always keen to face up to any problems and not shy away behind my ego.

When my libido is good, I have no problems in any department (apart from perhaps some difficulty ejaculating due to extreme loss of sensitivity from circumcision) and am able to lose myself in the moment.

When my libido is low however, such as when I am tired or feel like I am having a "low T day", I get very much "inside my head" during the act, thinking "Oh no, I hope I don't lose my erection. I'm losing it aren't I. Yep, there it goes. Well, this is shit." Having these thoughts running through my head completely prevents me from just "going with it" and enjoying the experience for what it is. It's initially a physiological problem, then compounded by a psychological component, hence my assertion that I believe it was playing a role.

Cialis just blows straight through all of this and lets me perform to the fullest extent, so I'll take your advice and just start supplementing daily with it.

edit: actually, you know what, I was just reading the Wikipedia entry on delayed ejaculation, and it describes me down to a T (no pun intended). I've suffered from this my whole life. How did you come to the conclusion that you needed L-Tryptophan?

When serotonin levels diminish, many things are affected and mostly libido in men. There are other ways to increase production, but L-Tryptophan is quite unique. It converts to serotonin but you get a bonus along the way, as the initial conversion results in 5-HTP, and then seratonin. The only concern is that after about 5 to 6 weeks, we become resistant to its effects. So I simply come off of it for a couple of weeks and get back on. I've also used oxytocin and that seemed to help as well.

I own a supplement company and have a vast background in research. Over the counter solutions is a strong goal that I strive for.

 

[Megatron28]

Looks like Austinite has given you some excellent advice. Because of him, I tried adding Cialis to my daily meds and I like it.

Do get your estradiol checked. You are taking a lot of Aromatase inhibitor (AI) for the dose of test you are on. Given the subq injections and low bf% you probably are not a big aromatizer. And for reference, most guys (anecdotal) seem to be happiest when their E2 is in the 20-39 range with the Sensitive Assay. Low E2 can affect your libido.

Oh, the "flying close to the sun" comment is in reference to the Greek tale about Icarus and Daedelus.

Daedalus conceived to escape from the Labyrinth with Icarus from Crete by constructing wings and then flying to safety. He built the wings from feathers and wax, and before the two set off he warned Icarus not to fly too low lest his wings touch the waves and get wet, and not too high lest the sun melt the wax. But the young Icarus, overwhelmed by the thrill of flying, did not heed his father's warning, and flew too close to the sun whereupon the wax in his wings melted and he fell into the sea.

 

[Hoodlum]

Looks like Austinite has given you some excellent advice. Because of him, I tried adding Cialis to my daily meds and I like it.

Do get your estradiol checked. You are taking a lot of Aromatase inhibitor (AI) for the dose of test you are on. Given the subq injections and low bf% you probably are not a big aromatizer. And for reference, most guys (anecdotal) seem to be happiest when their E2 is in the 20-39 range with the Sensitive Assay. Low E2 can affect your libido.

Oh, the "flying close to the sun" comment is in reference to the Greek tale about Icarus and Daedelus.

Daedalus conceived to escape from the Labyrinth with Icarus from Crete by constructing wings and then flying to safety. He built the wings from feathers and wax, and before the two set off he warned Icarus not to fly too low lest his wings touch the waves and get wet, and not too high lest the sun melt the wax. But the young Icarus, overwhelmed by the thrill of flying, did not heed his father's warning, and flew too close to the sun whereupon the wax in his wings melted and he fell into the sea.

Ah yes, I thought I recognised it. Apt analogy. I would not want my cypionate wings to melt, plunging me into a sea of cardiac hypertrophy ;-)

 

[Hoodlum]

When serotonin levels diminish, many things are affected and mostly libido in men. There are other ways to increase production, but L-Tryptophan is quite unique. It converts to serotonin but you get a bonus along the way, as the initial conversion results in 5-HTP, and then seratonin. The only concern is that after about 5 to 6 weeks, we become resistant to its effects. So I simply come off of it for a couple of weeks and get back on. I've also used oxytocin and that seemed to help as well.

I own a supplement company and have a vast background in research. Over the counter solutions is a strong goal that I strive for.

Thanks for the info, all very interesting.

Did you take a blood test to confirm a potential diagnosis of low serotonin? Or would you just recommend trying the tryptophan supplementation and seeing if it makes a difference? I've got some 5HTP knocking around in my supplements cupboard, but I don't really take it.

 

[Austinite]

Trying tryptophan won't hurt you. You see, many times it's not only the serotonin level itself, but it could be the reuptake, and tryptophan helps in both. You could test your levels with an SRA (Serotonin Release Assay), and it could return a normal range, which then might indicate an issue with reuptake. If reuptake is too rapid, then there isn't much left in the brain to function properly.

This is how SSRI's work as well, they block receptor sites to inhibit reuptake, thus resulting in higher levels left behind, which you would utilize.

 

[Alpin]

Good advice/thread. Viagra would be more appropriate wouldn't it Austinite?
at least you know its out of your system after 4 hours. Taking Cialis regularly may be a bit much.
Let's say you take it night before and you go to work the next day and you see something that stimulates you....
what are you suppose to do? walk around with a hard on??
what dose of Cialis is standard?

 

[Austinite]

No. I mentioned that viagra is a poor choice. You do not want Cialis out of your system, it's one of the healthiest, most effective drugs that exist today. Viagra is garbage.

That's not how Cialis works. Read up on it, I've never seen a better drug in any category. You don't just see something and get an erection. I'll get rid of testosterone therapy before I lose Cialis.

 

[Alpin]

really?
took Viagra way back...like 10 years ago a few time. Seemed to kick in fully after an hour of taking it.
Never went more than 50 mg. Side effects I had were slight nasal congestion(found it difficult to take in extra air...lol) as I was pounding away.
lol
Hopefully Cialis is better.
There was a study that found Viagra causing eye damage many years ago. Don't know if its true or not.

 

[Austinite]

really?
took Viagra way back...like 10 years ago a few time. Seemed to kick in fully after an hour of taking it.
Never went more than 50 mg. Side effects I had were slight nasal congestion(found it difficult to take in extra air...lol) as I was pounding away.
lol
Hopefully Cialis is better.
There was a study that found Viagra causing eye damage many years ago. Don't know if its true or not.

Any PDE5 inhibitor can cause eye issues. The cranial nerve 2 is the issue where the messages between the brain and retina are affected, but that has only been an issue with men who've suffered multiple heart attacks and obviously would have heart disease. Incredibly uncommon, even in men with heart disease.

 

[Alpin]

How do you dose your Cialis Austin?

 

[Austinite]

How do you dose your Cialis Austin?

5 mg twice daily. So 10 mg total. But you do not have to split it, half life is long enough to take one dose. I only split it because I only want 5mg as part of my pre-workout.

 

[halfwit]

Hot damn, I'm glad you reposted this here Hoodlum. Austinite has taken far better care of your concern than I possibly could have. I do think in time you could experiment with blasting if you felt the urge, but it's very hard to argue with anything said above. Best of luck!

 

[Alpin]

5 mg twice daily. So 10 mg total. But you do not have to split it, half life is long enough to take one dose. I only split it because I only want 5mg as part of my pre-workout.

The Cialis gives you stamina and muscular pump when taken pre workout?