Safest Peak T Level To Remain At Indefinitely

[Hoodlum]

Now, I appreciate this is a general case question, and the answer will vary from person to person. As a general case, what's the highest "safe" level of total T it's possible to remain at indefinitely? I'm self-administering, and so it's fully under my control.

As I understand, provided sides are controlled with Aromatase inhibitor (AI), then usually greater T will result in feeling better, with more benefits from working out etc.

I'm aware that increased hematocrit is an issue, which will presumably accelerate with higher T levels. I've also heard adrenal fatigue being mentioned - is this a possibility running at a level of say 1500 all the time?

Last time I had my bloods done, I was around 850. When I first started testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) with gels, I went through a period of feeling absolutely amazing in terms of my sex drive and energy levels - like nothing I'd ever felt in my life - whereas now I just feel merely "quite good, but not spectacular" (I'm now on 250mg test cyp per week, no gels). I'm keen to get that feeling back again if I can.

It is my assumption that it was the rapid change in T levels in my system that caused the initial amazing feeling, and that it won't be possible to feel like that all the time - but if I can feel better, and get better results in the gym from safely increasing my level a bit more, then I want to look into it.

I'm not reckless, and if there turn out to be significant health implications to doing so, then I won't pursue it.

Thanks for any info

 

[halfwit]

Easy answer: As high as your doc will allow you to maintain at. Most get trigger happy when you approach the end of the "normal" range for total test, so that's something to keep in mind. I personally like to stay around 950-1100, which my doctor is copacetic with.

Hard answer: Supraphysiological levels for extended periods of time can cause hypertrophy of the heart, increase red blood cell count and of course increase estradiol if left unchecked. While two of these three can be treated indefinitely (within reason), the remaining effect would likely be the limiting factor. I'd imagine with the use of a imaging equipment you could monitor this, but obviously once your heart reaches a dangerous size, it may be too late. As my magic eight ball isn't working right now - I couldn't tell you when that could be.

*Note: I wanted to delve further into the supraphysiological side of this, but feel this isn't the proper forum for such discussion.

 

[MickeyKnox]

Ideally, the idea is to maintain a level of testosterone somewhere inside the spectrum of high and low values outlined by the lab or hospital. But in order to do this safely and responsibly, i highly recommend you find this "sweet spot" with bloodwork, not just by that glorious feeling you want to re experience. Otherwise you're setting yourself up for health issues - some of which cannot be reversed.

Be smart. Play safe.

 

[MickeyKnox]

Sorry Halfwit, didn't mean to step on you.

 

[Hoodlum]

Easy answer: As high as your doc will allow you to maintain at. Most get trigger happy when you approach the end of the "normal" range for total test, so that's something to keep in mind. I personally like to stay around 950-1100, which my doctor is copacetic with.

I'm self treating with no doc, so it's up to me really... As I said, I'd like to milk the most benefit, but not at the end expense of health. Nobody wants a giant heart.

Note: I wanted to delve further into the supraphysiological side of this, but feel this isn't the proper forum for such discussion.

You've piqued my curiosity... Care to expand further, or point me in the direction of any good resources you know? I'll just Google otherwise. Cheers

 

[Hoodlum]

Last bloods were all good. All levels within range. I'm just interested in exploring getting the absolute most out of it safely. An average reference range of healthy natty T levels isn't necessarily the optimal level you could safely run at, no?

Cheers

 

[Megatron28]

Define "optimal". Some say optimal is the point where you can use Test only without a need for other meds like AI? Others want to fly close to the sun to feel optimal. What's optimal for you?

 

[Hoodlum]

Since I have taken on a lifelong commitment to using these meds for the rest of my life, then optimal for me means getting everything I possibly can out of my treatment, in terms of energy level, sex drive, benefits from the gym - without causing any serious health implications.

Avoiding Aromatase inhibitor (AI) is not something I am concerned with, if it means I can run at a higher T level and still safely take more benefits from it - if I have to take a quarter of a tiny tablet two times a week, then it's no big deal to me. I already take a number of other tablets in the morning - vitamin D, multivitamin, fibre capsules etc, so it's no hassle.

So in this case, to fly as close to the sun as I can without causing serious problems for myself.

 

[Megatron28]

My advice to you then is to try different test doses out and see how it feels. Work your way up. And see what kinds of sides you get as your dose increases. Nobody is going to be able to give you a number that tells you what the cutoff is between safe and unsafe.

 

[Good.2.Go]

Since I have taken on a lifelong commitment to using these meds for the rest of my life, then optimal for me means getting everything I possibly can out of my treatment, in terms of energy level, sex drive, benefits from the gym - without causing any serious health implications.

Avoiding Aromatase inhibitor (AI) is not something I am concerned with, if it means I can run at a higher T level and still safely take more benefits from it - if I have to take a quarter of a tiny tablet two times a week, then it's no big deal to me. I already take a number of other tablets in the morning - vitamin D, multivitamin, fibre capsules etc, so it's no hassle.

So in this case, to fly as close to the sun as I can without causing serious problems for myself.

I could be wrong but it sounds to me that you would like to use the T to benefit from normal testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) symptoms while also using the most quantity at the same time to receive maximum physical gains (safely).

Lets entertain that 250 ng/dl weekly made you feel great but with slight/moderate physical gains but, 400 ng/dl weekly also felt great with excellent/noticeable physical gains. If your blood work revealed that your trough T on 250 ng/dl weekly was 1200 & 400 ng/dl weekly revealed your trough T to be 2100; I'm certain that the higher dosage would be hazardous to your health to continue after XX amount of time specifically with hematocrit amongst other things & (yes you could always donate blood.)

Now, you maybe thinking can I administer 250 ng/dl weekly for 10 weeks & then 400 ng/dl weekly for 10 weeks for the rest of my life. I don't know but, this would be referred to as cycling & you may not receive the answers that your looking for within this testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) section. You may want to post your question on one of the other boards. Good luck.

 

[MickeyKnox]

Last bloods were all good. All levels within range. I'm just interested in exploring getting the absolute most out of it safely. An average reference range of healthy natty T levels isn't necessarily the optimal level you could safely run at, no?

Cheers

On the contrary, i believe it is. And i equally believe that if you push your testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) self medicated protocol above widely accepted ranges, you are now cycling and no longer can make claims of self medicated TRT.

I feel you may be over-thinking this a little. Start out at 100mg/wk (cyp or enth) and titrate up from there based upon bloodwork and general overall feeling.

Be careful. Being on cycle for an average of 12 - 16 wks has been determined for a reason. If it weren't dangerous, unhealthy, or just plain irresponsible to cycle forever, we'd all be doing it.

 

[Megatron28]

Be careful. Being on cycle for an average of 12 - 16 wks has been determined for a reason. If it weren't dangerous, unhealthy, or just plain irresponsible to cycle forever, we'd all be doing it.

Part, not all, of the 12-16 weeks is due to the fact that healthy guys running a cycle want their natty T to come back. The long you are on exogenous T the more difficult it can be to restore your natty T. As we all know though, that ship has sailed for us hypogonadal guys. But still, there are other issues with running at above-normal levels for an extended period of time.

 

[totalburnout]

Since I have taken on a lifelong commitment to using these meds for the rest of my life, then optimal for me means getting everything I possibly can out of my treatment, in terms of energy level, sex drive, benefits from the gym - without causing any serious health implications.

Avoiding Aromatase inhibitor (AI) is not something I am concerned with, if it means I can run at a higher T level and still safely take more benefits from it - if I have to take a quarter of a tiny tablet two times a week, then it's no big deal to me. I already take a number of other tablets in the morning - vitamin D, multivitamin, fibre capsules etc, so it's no hassle.

So in this case, to fly as close to the sun as I can without causing serious problems for myself.

You understand the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) in itself has negative side effects, correct? You also understand that by increasing T dosage, you'll likely have to increase that Aromatase inhibitor (AI) dosage, which is going to accelerate the negative side effects of the AI.

Talking things like bone density, cholesterol, etc.

It sounds like what you're really reaching for is a cycle. If that's what you want, to get the max physical gains, then run your cycle, get your gains, and then go back to using the least amount of drugs, as possible, that still leave you feeling good.

 

[3J]

sounds like a blast a cruise might fit your goals better

 

[Hoodlum]

Thanks for all the replies guys, some food for thought. I always appreciate the informative and helpful answers I get on this forum.

In terms of physical benefits, I've already put on about 8lb of muscle in the last 2 months since I started, so I'm over the moon that all of the countless hours I've been putting in at the gym over the last few years are now finally paying off with my T levels where they should be.

I suppose it's just my nature to try and push everything I do the limits of what is safely possible, I'm something of a perfectionist in that regard.

Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't those sides from Aromatase inhibitor (AI) only become a problem if you took your E2 levels far too low, and kept them there? If it is used to keep them within the healthy reference range, does it still cause a problem in the long term?

 

[halfwit]

Sorry Halfwit, didn't mean to step on you.

Nope, your opinions are always welcomed man - no stepping felt.

I'm self treating with no doc, so it's up to me really... As I said, I'd like to milk the most benefit, but not at the end expense of health. Nobody wants a giant heart.



You've piqued my curiosity... Care to expand further, or point me in the direction of any good resources you know? I'll just Google otherwise. Cheers

Then you should pose this question in the AAS section where we can entertain this notion without causing problems for the testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) sponsor.

sounds like a blast a cruise might fit your goals better

I agree.

 

[totalburnout]

Thanks for all the replies guys, some food for thought. I always appreciate the informative and helpful answers I get on this forum.

In terms of physical benefits, I've already put on about 8lb of muscle in the last 2 months since I started, so I'm over the moon that all of the countless hours I've been putting in at the gym over the last few years are now finally paying off with my T levels where they should be.

I suppose it's just my nature to try and push everything I do the limits of what is safely possible, I'm something of a perfectionist in that regard.

Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't those sides from Aromatase inhibitor (AI) only become a problem if you took your E2 levels far too low, and kept them there? If it is used to keep them within the healthy reference range, does it still cause a problem in the long term?

No, the side effects aren't only from when E2 is crushed or too high. Is there a huge risk? Probably not, but if you already have a poor cholesterol profile or a deficiency in your diet, it's going to exacerbate the issue.

Also, be careful that you're clinging to things being healthy "so long as they're in the the 'healthy reference range'" but it sounds like you want to push your TT levels above that "healthy reference range". Apply the same mindset across the board, because the knife cuts both directions.

 

[Good.2.Go]

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[Hoodlum]

Also, be careful that you're clinging to things being healthy "so long as they're in the the 'healthy reference range'" but it sounds like you want to push your TT levels above that "healthy reference range". Apply the same mindset across the board, because the knife cuts both directions.

Haha, ok, touche, good point. Although there are more desirable benefits to knocking TT levels above the "healthy reference range" as compared to the others. Selective principles ;-)

 

[Hoodlum]

And thanks for the other replies guys. I'll take the question to the other forum - I hadn't considered the issue with this board having a sponsor.