Second cycle, too hot for current bodyweight?

[stickynote23]

Need a bit of advice on my second cycle from someone wiser than I.

Stats:
35
3 yrs 'fitness athlete focused' (climbing, running, skiing, etc)
3 yrs 'lifting/fitness focused' (lifting in winter combined with cardio, summer is limited lifting plus lots of outdoor hobbies during 4-5 summer months)
5'9"
160lbs 13-14%BF (yes I'm light, goal is to stabilize at ~180lbs @10-12%bf, any more than that and I'm going to start compromising my hobbies)

Other info:
- Goal is to build and keep ~15-20 lbs of muscle, I understand that this will likely take 3-4 cycles of disciplined work.
- Most of my activities are endurance and cardio based, so while I'm in extremely good shape, I have trouble building muscle. I devote a few months every winter to weightlifting tho

My PREVIOUS cycle (last yr):
W1-12: 400mg test-e
W1-14: 0.5mg dex E3D
W 15-18: clo @ 50/20/20/10; Nolva @ 40/20/20/10

I was happy with the intro cycle overall but I wasn't happy with the routine (while I worked out religiously I didn't do enough pure muscle-building or eat enough). My goal this time is to pack on more mass in the winter season, and have significantly adjusted eating/workout plan to fit.

Plans for NEW cycle:
W1-5: 25mg dbol
W1-12: 600mg test-e pinned 2x/week @ 300mg
W1-10: 250mg deca pinned 1x/week
W1-14: 0.5mg dex E3D
* help here* W3-14: 500mg hcg/week pinned 2x/week @ 250mg
*OR W10-14: 1000mg hcg/week pinned 2x/week @ 500mg
W15-18: 50/50/25/25 Clo
W15-18 40/20/20/20 Nolva

Questions:
1. Is this too aggressive over my previous cycle? Is the deca @ 250 not aggressive enough? (keep in mind I'm pretty light)
2. Can anyone give me any thoughts on running hcg the whole cycle vs only the 4 weeks before PCT?
3. Any thoughts on Clo/Nolva dosages?
4. While gyno wasn't a problem the first time, is there something I should have on hand this time since test-e is much higher and I'm running deca as well?
5. Additional supps confuse the hell out of me, sooo many out there. I understand the dbol is hard on my liver, should I be taking something for that. Any other specific supps?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions folks.

 

[casanovaaa]

Welcome to the boards! did you take any hcg in your last cycle? just test and arimidex? 500mg of hcg in your next cycle would be better for you
be sure to adjust your diet as well and be sure thwt you get used to esting more to keep your future gains.

 

[stickynote23]

No HCG last cycle, new addition this time (as I get smarter).

Just debating whether to pin it for the whole cycle from week 3-14 or just at the end from week 10-14. Any thoughts on that would be appreciated for sure.

In terms of diet, for sure that's one of two major adjustments for this cycle. I typically eat like an endurance athlete, so it's a brand new program.

 

[Mycelium]

3Js BMR and TDEE calculators are good. Always adjusting based on activity, weight gain and fat gain.

I second his liver support question. Ive seen Liv52 mentioned. Is it good, great orbs waste of money?

How much did you gain and keep from the first cycle? How were your workouts?

 

[scorob777]

Plans for NEW cycle:
W1-5: 25mg dbol
W1-12: 600mg test-e pinned 2x/week @ 300mg
W1-10: 250mg deca pinned 1x/week
W1-14: 0.5mg dex E3D
* help here* W3-14: 500mg hcg/week pinned 2x/week @ 250mg
*OR W10-14: 1000mg hcg/week pinned 2x/week @ 500mg
W15-18: 50/50/25/25 Clo
W15-18 40/20/20/20 Nolva

Questions:
1. Is this too aggressive over my previous cycle? Is the deca @ 250 not aggressive enough? (keep in mind I'm pretty light)
2. Can anyone give me any thoughts on running hcg the whole cycle vs only the 4 weeks before PCT?
3. Any thoughts on Clo/Nolva dosages?
4. While gyno wasn't a problem the first time, is there something I should have on hand this time since test-e is much higher and I'm running deca as well?
5. Additional supps confuse the hell out of me, sooo many out there. I understand the dbol is hard on my liver, should I be taking something for that. Any other specific supps?

There's a lot of solid planning in this cycle, in general looks good. I can give you a couple of opinions.

25mg dbol is a bit light. Depending on how your tablets or capsules are dosed you might consider doubling this. For liver support I think milk thistle is very good, cheap, and easily available. You could also get tudca which is very effective, but more costly and a bit harder to find.

Total dosage of test + deca at 850 vs. your first run at 400 should be a pretty good jump. My personal opinion is I would run deca at least 400 pw, and it really shines at 600. The downside of higher doses is it takes forever to clear your system and makes recovery harder, so you have to balance the risks. I see you stop deca 2 weeks before test which is a very good idea.

The adex at 0.5 mg E3D is perfect for 600 test E and 250 deca. For the period of time you are taking dbol a bit more is required - but this is tempered by the fact that the test and deca blood levels will start low and be rising during those first 5 weeks, so the same 0.5 E3D is probably ok.

For HCG it is really up to you. 250 IU 2x per week is the bare minimum. 500 IU 2x is better, but of course costs twice as much. You should take from day 1 all the way up to PCT start. Some jam 1,000 IU pd in the last ten days before PCT. If you want to recover easier and/or keep fertility this is more of a must than a maybe.

I would push your PCT start out at least one week further. The 600 Test E will take longer to bleed down than your previous 400, 3 weeks gap at a minimum and 4 would be better. After your last shot the test in your system bleeds down to roughly natural production level in a day or two less than 4 weeks.

Your clomid and nolva doses are light, but this would be ok provided you wait long enough to start PCT. If you only waited 2 weeks they would be questionable.

 

[stickynote23]

How much did you gain and keep from the first cycle? How were your workouts?

Workouts were good but I ate to my goal weight (160), which was, in retrospect, too low. I'm basically trying to put on as much muscle as I can and still pursue my passions (rock climbing, skiing, mountaineering, marathons, etc). At 160 I'm still easily able to do all of them, so I'm thinking 180 is reasonable.

 

[stickynote23]

25mg dbol is a bit light. Depending on how your tablets or capsules are dosed you might consider doubling this. For liver support I think milk thistle is very good, cheap, and easily available. You could also get tudca which is very effective, but more costly and a bit harder to find.

Dosed at 25mg. Introducing two new compounds in a cycle makes me a bit sketchy, I tried to keep a low deca and low dbol because of this. Will I get anything from 25mg dbol?

Total dosage of test + deca at 850 vs. your first run at 400 should be a pretty good jump. My personal opinion is I would run deca at least 400 pw, and it really shines at 600. The downside of higher doses is it takes forever to clear your system and makes recovery harder, so you have to balance the risks. I see you stop deca 2 weeks before test which is a very good idea.

The adex at 0.5 mg E3D is perfect for 600 test E and 250 deca. For the period of time you are taking dbol a bit more is required - but this is tempered by the fact that the test and deca blood levels will start low and be rising during those first 5 weeks, so the same 0.5 E3D is probably ok.

Okay, thank you.

For HCG it is really up to you. 250 IU 2x per week is the bare minimum. 500 IU 2x is better, but of course costs twice as much. You should take from day 1 all the way up to PCT start. Some jam 1,000 IU pd in the last ten days before PCT. If you want to recover easier and/or keep fertility this is more of a must than a maybe.

Noted. I'll plan on running more not less. I haven't seen any downside to running hcg the full cycle other than the cost. It's definitely expensive from my source, so I might try and find a different source for this one.

I would push your PCT start out at least one week further. The 600 Test E will take longer to bleed down than your previous 400, 3 weeks gap at a minimum and 4 would be better. After your last shot the test in your system bleeds down to roughly natural production level in a day or two less than 4 weeks.

Your clomid and nolva doses are light, but this would be ok provided you wait long enough to start PCT. If you only waited 2 weeks they would be questionable.

Okay. Noted. Thank you again for taking the time to really give some great info. I appreciate it.