Those who use ECA stacks in the US...

[jozifp103]

Considering running clen and eca along with my osta/s4 stack to help with fat loss along with my cardio and diet. I was going to alternate 2 weeks clen, then two weeks eca and so on...

I was wondering, since ephedrine hcl is not sold without a prescription and 99% of canadian companies will not ship it to the US, do you still use actual ephedrine? or do you use ephedra instead? (legal plant extract containing the ephedrine alkaloid) or do you find your own way to get the real thing? If so, is ephedra just as effective in your opinion?

I'm aware that there is bronkaid which is sold without prescription that contains ephedrine sulfate, but i've read it's much less effective than HCL.

thank you guys

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

Clen & eca hit the same receptors - so the two weeks on/off nonsense wont achieve anything since your receptors will be completely downregulated.

Either stick with ephedrine full time with no cycling, use clen 2 weeks on/off or use clen fulltime with ketotifen as an aid to prevent downregulation.
Ephedrine is better for guys above 12%bf, clen is useful for those leaner than this - easy way to decide which one to use.

Ephedra is NOT as effective as ephedrine & contains a bunch of other chemicals that do weird stuff to your blood pressure & heart rate - basically it is a higher risk, less reward version so AVOID it.
Either find a way to get real ephedrine (be aware that there is a LOAD of fakes on the market right now) or settle for bronkaid, which is better than ephedra anyway.

 

[JimiThing]

Clen & eca hit the same receptors - so the two weeks on/off nonsense wont achieve anything since your receptors will be completely downregulated.

Either stick with ephedrine full time with no cycling, use clen 2 weeks on/off or use clen fulltime with ketotifen as an aid to prevent downregulation.
Ephedrine is better for guys above 12%bf, clen is useful for those leaner than this - easy way to decide which one to use.

Ephedra is NOT as effective as ephedrine & contains a bunch of other chemicals that do weird stuff to your blood pressure & heart rate - basically it is a higher risk, less reward version so AVOID it.
Either find a way to get real ephedrine (be aware that there is a LOAD of fakes on the market right now) or settle for bronkaid, which is better than ephedra anyway.

This is spot on. The thing is Ephedrine hits b1 recptors primarily but secondarily it hits and activates the b2 receptor by stimulating the release of norepi or noradrenaline as well as acting on some alpha receptors, clen primarily activates b2 so do NOT alternate them. Pick clen or ephedrine. Tip: Ephedrine is legal and sold in primarily 8mg tabs in Canada.

 

[jozifp103]

great, thanks guys. I have plenty of clen and can get keto as well. I may just stick with 2 on 2 off with the clen because i start to get a bit irritable on it after the 2nd week. i'm currently @ 17%bf but due to the ease of access to clen I will probably use than unless I can find a good source for ephedrine. Perhaps i'll wait until i get down around 12% before i throw in heavy thermos.

@zilla, without straining yourself, could you give me a short explanation of how ephedrine works better for higher bf% ? I find that interesting and can;t seem to find any info on that particular subject.

Thanks again

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

@zilla, without straining yourself, could you give me a short explanation of how ephedrine works better for higher bf% ? I find that interesting and can;t seem to find any info on that particular subject.

Thanks again

Put simply, ephedrine doesn't lose its thermogenic effects even if used continuously for weeks & months. In fact there is some evidence that suggests the thermogenic effect INCREASES the longer your on it.
Ephedrine only needs to be cycled if your interested in the appetite suppression/energy side of it, not the thermogenic advantages.
This makes it a better choice for guys at a higher bf% since you can stay on it permanently throughout your cut - unlike clen.

Clen will eventually stop working even with the use of ketotifen or some other antihistamines. The data on clen + keto still shows clens effectiveness being reduced, just at a slower rate compared to clen alone.
In fact, I see zero evidence (both scientific & experience) to suggest that clen will work longer than 8-10 weeks MAX.
So if your cut is going to last longer than 8 weeks or so, then clen really isnt a good choice since it will stop working before your finished with it.

This is all assuming you actually want to get lean (below 10-12%bf), if your satisfied with getting into the 14-15% range then clen is fine.
Basically:
Long term - ephedrine
Short term - clen

 

[jozifp103]

Put simply, ephedrine doesn't lose its thermogenic effects even if used continuously for weeks & months. In fact there is some evidence that suggests the thermogenic effect INCREASES the longer your on it.
Ephedrine only needs to be cycled if your interested in the appetite suppression/energy side of it, not the thermogenic advantages.
This makes it a better choice for guys at a higher bf% since you can stay on it permanently throughout your cut - unlike clen.

Clen will eventually stop working even with the use of ketotifen or some other antihistamines. The data on clen + keto still shows clens effectiveness being reduced, just at a slower rate compared to clen alone.
In fact, I see zero evidence (both scientific & experience) to suggest that clen will work longer than 8-10 weeks MAX.
So if your cut is going to last longer than 8 weeks or so, then clen really isnt a good choice since it will stop working before your finished with it.

This is all assuming you actually want to get lean (below 10-12%bf), if your satisfied with getting into the 14-15% range then clen is fine.
Basically:
Long term - ephedrine
Short term - clen

perfect explanation, thank you. So as far as there being no studies showing clen working past 8-10 weeks, is that 8-10 weeks straight? or will it continue to be effective longer than that if cycling 2 on 2 off? in your opinion.

 

[JimiThing]

perfect explanation, thank you. So as far as there being no studies showing clen working past 8-10 weeks, is that 8-10 weeks straight? or will it continue to be effective longer than that if cycling 2 on 2 off? in your opinion.

Im not trying to jump in here but at some point you need to consider the prudence of using clen for a long period of time anyway. While I think it is safe if no existing issues exists and it isnt abused I do think its prudent to limit the length you run it anyway. It isnt exactly easy on the system by any means. My point, I never ran it longer than 8 weeks with ketotifen for that reason.

 

[jozifp103]

Im not trying to jump in here but at some point you need to consider the prudence of using clen for a long period of time anyway. While I think it is safe if no existing issues exists and it isnt abused I do think its prudent to limit the length you run it anyway. It isnt exactly easy on the system by any means. My point, I never ran it longer than 8 weeks with ketotifen for that reason.

i agree jimi. My plan is to go 2 on 2 off for 10 weeks so in total i'd be on clen for 6 weeks. I don't like the idea of running it for long periods. Thanks for the input.

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

perfect explanation, thank you. So as far as there being no studies showing clen working past 8-10 weeks, is that 8-10 weeks straight? or will it continue to be effective longer than that if cycling 2 on 2 off? in your opinion.

The 8-10 weeks straight was with the assistance of antihistamines, predominantly ketotifen. It basically puts to sleep the broscience of "as long as you use ketotifen you can stay on clen forever".

The reason ephedrine remains thermogenic is that it actually has a pretty weak binding affinity to beta receptors & mainly works by increasing the bodys natural production of adrenaline/noradrenaline.
Clen has a very specific & strong binding affinity to beta receptors, which IMO makes it inevitable that even with the 2 on/off method you will downregulate the receptors eventually.
IME, 8-10 weeks of total clen use is still the limit even with the 2 on/off method based on my own results as well as clients - this is equal to about 4-5 rounds.

You also have to remember the law of diminishing returns with clen.
Say you start at a nice low dose & slowly increase it over the 2 weeks.
Well when you start your 2nd round, the starting dose will have to be higher - and on & on this will go the more rounds of 2 on/off you have.
There will come a point where you cannot increase the dose without risking serious consequences - unlike ephedrine where a fixed dose permanently stays effective.

Again IMO, save the clen for when your leaner and/or short term dieting.

 

[jozifp103]

The 8-10 weeks straight was with the assistance of antihistamines, predominantly ketotifen. It basically puts to sleep the broscience of "as long as you use ketotifen you can stay on clen forever".

The reason ephedrine remains thermogenic is that it actually has a pretty weak binding affinity to beta receptors & mainly works by increasing the bodys natural production of adrenaline/noradrenaline.
Clen has a very specific & strong binding affinity to beta receptors, which IMO makes it inevitable that even with the 2 on/off method you will downregulate the receptors eventually.
IME, 8-10 weeks of total clen use is still the limit even with the 2 on/off method based on my own results as well as clients - this is equal to about 4-5 rounds.

You also have to remember the law of diminishing returns with clen.
Say you start at a nice low dose & slowly increase it over the 2 weeks.
Well when you start your 2nd round, the starting dose will have to be higher - and on & on this will go the more rounds of 2 on/off you have.
There will come a point where you cannot increase the dose without risking serious consequences - unlike ephedrine where a fixed dose permanently stays effective.

Again IMO, save the clen for when your leaner and/or short term dieting.

lol i don't think i've ever been so easily convinced before. Thanks for the knowledge. I'll definitely wait until i'm leaner. It seems like a waste to run it now when considering everything you just said. I'll have to believe in the Zilla on this one.

**and thanks Jimi for your valuable input as well.

 

[bigben66]

Put simply, ephedrine doesn't lose its thermogenic effects even if used continuously for weeks & months. In fact there is some evidence that suggests the thermogenic effect INCREASES the longer your on it.
Ephedrine only needs to be cycled if your interested in the appetite suppression/energy side of it, not the thermogenic advantages.
This makes it a better choice for guys at a higher bf% since you can stay on it permanently throughout your cut - unlike clen.

Clen will eventually stop working even with the use of ketotifen or some other antihistamines. The data on clen + keto still shows clens effectiveness being reduced, just at a slower rate compared to clen alone.
In fact, I see zero evidence (both scientific & experience) to suggest that clen will work longer than 8-10 weeks MAX.
So if your cut is going to last longer than 8 weeks or so, then clen really isnt a good choice since it will stop working before your finished with it.

This is all assuming you actually want to get lean (below 10-12%bf), if your satisfied with getting into the 14-15% range then clen is fine.
Basically:
Long term - ephedrine
Short term - clen

Fantastic info here, thanks zilla

 

[Harnold]

Considering running clen and eca along with my osta/s4 stack to help with fat loss along with my cardio and diet. I was going to alternate 2 weeks clen, then two weeks eca and so on...

I was wondering, since ephedrine hcl is not sold without a prescription and 99% of canadian companies will not ship it to the US, do you still use actual ephedrine? or do you use ephedra instead? (legal plant extract containing the ephedrine alkaloid) or do you find your own way to get the real thing? If so, is ephedra just as effective in your opinion?

I'm aware that there is bronkaid which is sold without prescription that contains ephedrine sulfate, but i've read it's much less effective than HCL.

thank you guys

yeah most supplement shops carry it in Canada max 8mg. if you're desperate enough, sudafed is I believe the highest ephedrine Hcl content OTC. they'll never take a popular drug off the market with the large drug companies dumping money into political campaigns. sudafed is expensive though, at least here in Canada.

I'm in Canada but heading to the south USA in a few months and am already trying to figure out how to get my eph Hcl down there, not to mention some testE. thinking my pill case for the eph but not sure yet.

by the way, ephedra sucks shit, it will not give you that kick in the ass feeling, but will keep you awake for hours on end. don't bother with that crap, it's like the old red rockets or thermogenics I think it was called, no kick in buzz, but you can count on being awake for a day or two. brutal.

 

[Harnold]

The 8-10 weeks straight was with the assistance of antihistamines, predominantly ketotifen. It basically puts to sleep the broscience of "as long as you use ketotifen you can stay on clen forever".

The reason ephedrine remains thermogenic is that it actually has a pretty weak binding affinity to beta receptors & mainly works by increasing the bodys natural production of adrenaline/noradrenaline.
Clen has a very specific & strong binding affinity to beta receptors, which IMO makes it inevitable that even with the 2 on/off method you will downregulate the receptors eventually.
IME, 8-10 weeks of total clen use is still the limit even with the 2 on/off method based on my own results as well as clients - this is equal to about 4-5 rounds.

You also have to remember the law of diminishing returns with clen.
Say you start at a nice low dose & slowly increase it over the 2 weeks.
Well when you start your 2nd round, the starting dose will have to be higher - and on & on this will go the more rounds of 2 on/off you have.
There will come a point where you cannot increase the dose without risking serious consequences - unlike ephedrine where a fixed dose permanently stays effective.

Again IMO, save the clen for when your leaner and/or short term dieting.

my ephedrine receptors are pretty clogged, as I have to take 20 x8mg with caffeine for pre-workout. no shit, not bragging by any means. clen vet pump doesn't work for me nearly as well, and I took five years off from eph but tolerance built back up quick. luckily I have a buddy who sells me eph pretty cheap in high volume. good thing.