Tired of losing everything I gain. Question about HRT

[totalburnout]

My muscle atrophy wasn't overnight, it took place over several years as I was just diagnosed with depression or anxiety. Here's some info for you:

http://www.bcmj.org/articles/testosterone-deficiency-practical-guidelines-diagnosis-and-treatment
Reference they use for the atrophy:
4. Bhasin S, Cunningham GR, Hayes FJ, et al. Testosterone therapy in adult men with androgen deficiency syndromes: An Endocrine Society clinical practice guideline. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2010;95:2536-2559.

I used the cycling example as it's a more dramatic and visible due to the short time frame involved. Did I stop eating as much and training as hard? Yes, but that was because my cause for hypogonadism was due to extended use of opiates after I underwent several knee surgeries. I picked back up where I left off with my usual 150% intensity and insane amount of calories. The only problem was that not only was I unable to put any more mass on, but I was losing muscle tone and putting on more fat. I went from 280lbs at 9% body fat to a whopping 464lbs at 38% body fat, at which point I knew something was very wrong.

You have to keep in mind too, that training intensity is a relative output as I'm sure you can imagine it was far more difficult to spend an hour at the gym while at 464 than at 280. Thankfully I'm only about 50lbs from my goal after four years of testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) and busting my butt in the gym. I'll never deadlift 725lbs again, but at least I can say I'll look damn good lifting my sissy weights.

We're still not talking on the right wave length. You're a smart guy. Please don't tell me that you believe low T was the sole cause of that weight gain and muscle loss. Clearly you had extenuating circumstances.

Also, what you cited is what we all know CAN be a general sign/symptom of hypogonadism. That's a CAN BE not an absolute must. It's a symptom, that doesn't show a cause and effect relationship where you can point to a 1 to 1 relationship that when T count goes down, muscle mass AUTOMATICALLY declines. There's a correlation for sure but at the end of the day, even if it takes more work and modifications to sleep, training, and eating - you absolutely can maintain muscle mass with low T. Again, I just point to bodybuilders that are off cycle. Why don't they just whither away?

This concept is being oversimplified because people don't want to look in the mirror and tell themselves the cold hard truth. "Oh, I only lost muscle because of low T." No, absolutely not. You lost muscle because of a number of different factors, many of which you could have controlled but either chose not to or simply didn't know how to control them. That doesn't make anyone less of a man. It just means some people are willing to pass responsibility and the buck rather than having some personal responsibility and self awareness.

Anyone who blasts and cruises will not agree with me - because they've proven they rather rely on the chemical rather than alter other things.

 

[totalburnout]

Do you understand the difference testosterone levels play in men and women? We will just have to agree to disagree about the significance testosterone plays in human development.

Woah, woah, woah.

Completely fucking different topic again.

Now you're talking about human development and gaining mass, NOT MAINTAINING MASS.

We can't discuss this intelligently if the conversation is going to pulled to every other instance where what you're saying is correct. I'm not disagreeing with T's role in human development, creating mass, or even maintaining mass. I'm discussing the point that although its more difficult with low T, it's not inevitable that a person would lose muscle mass simply because they have low T. They can change other factors and still happily maintain mass.

That's the point. Nothing more, nothing less.

Please keep in mind all my comments were directed at a guy who continually runs cycles and loses his gains. Do you think he might be doing something wrong? Duh. Why did it have to get so complicated and have to be fought tooth and nail for a very simple concept? Does everyone feel that much better thinking that they were completely helpless because of their low T AND THERE WASN'T A SINGLE THING THEY COULD HAVE CHANGE IN THEIR LIFESTYLE TO HELP?

 

[totalburnout]

Please refer to my initial quote where I said and ill paraphrase some here since I don't remember the exact quote - "What I absolutely don't agree with is that you CAN'T maintain muscle mass with low T. You absolutely can with the proper diet, nutrition and sleep."

 

[Megatron28]

Please refer to my initial quote where I said and ill paraphrase some here since I don't remember the exact quote - "What I absolutely don't agree with is that you CAN'T maintain muscle mass with low T. You absolutely can with the proper diet, nutrition and sleep."

We know. That's what we disagree with. How does a guy with TT of 1000 who then drops to 100 when he becomes hypogonadal maintain the same muscle mass and strength over a period of many years? Eating more will just make him fat. You sleep lousy when you have hypogonadism so more lousy sleep won't help. Exercising more might be marginally helpful in offsetting muscle loss; but it could likely be counterproductive as you can't recover normally when you have Low T and you can't add significant muscle mass anymore.

You keep talking about your experience with low T and being able to maintain muscle mass. You didn't have sub-200 TT. If I remember right, you were closer to 400. That's a HUGE difference. Don't act like you know what it is like to have essentially no testosterone in your body.

 

[GoPro]

Oh my goss, lets all just shoot each other up and be friends already. This thread just got high-the-fuck-jacked.

 

[halfwit]

We're still not talking on the right wave length. You're a smart guy. Please don't tell me that you believe low T was the sole cause of that weight gain and muscle loss. Clearly you had extenuating circumstances.

Also, what you cited is what we all know CAN be a general sign/symptom of hypogonadism. That's a CAN BE not an absolute must. It's a symptom, that doesn't show a cause and effect relationship where you can point to a 1 to 1 relationship that when T count goes down, muscle mass AUTOMATICALLY declines. There's a correlation for sure but at the end of the day, even if it takes more work and modifications to sleep, training, and eating - you absolutely can maintain muscle mass with low T. Again, I just point to bodybuilders that are off cycle. Why don't they just whither away?

This concept is being oversimplified because people don't want to look in the mirror and tell themselves the cold hard truth. "Oh, I only lost muscle because of low T." No, absolutely not. You lost muscle because of a number of different factors, many of which you could have controlled but either chose not to or simply didn't know how to control them. That doesn't make anyone less of a man. It just means some people are willing to pass responsibility and the buck rather than having some personal responsibility and self awareness.

Anyone who blasts and cruises will not agree with me - because they've proven they rather rely on the chemical rather than alter other things.

Like I said, you are the exception here - not the rule. My total testosterone was 120ng/dL at a PEAK when I was finally diagnosed as primary hypogonadal. I was big time into powerlifting in my teens/early 20's and had amassed a great deal of muscle in those years which simply didn't vanish because I somehow stopped eating (I didn't) or lessened my workouts (I didn't, aside from the weights decreasing). I'm sure that many men find themselves in this position because of obesity first causing hypogonadism, but I was healthy and fit when I became injured. The fact that I was injured while lifting 675lbs of copper wire should speak for itself. The fact is that we cannot maintain an appreciable amount of muscle mass (maybe you and I have different opinions on appreciable) without the vital hormone testosterone.

You bring up a very good point with bodybuilders. I happen to have a few friends that compete and have dreams of earning their pro cards in the future. Guess what? They DON'T come off the juice. Once you surpass your genetic potential for muscle mass, you either have to supplement with more exogenous testosterone, or you lose it. In fact, most of these guys cruise with what most of us would consider a blast. I presented you with an excerpt from an endocrine societal journal complete with a citation to a study, yet you still insist that this is merely a possibility. Sure, but so is atrophy of the gonads or the advancement of male-pattern baldness. Do we all suffer from these? No. But is it a strong possibility if the given genetic predispositions are present? You betcha.

I am not arguing with you because I want to prove you wrong. I want you to understand that there are forces beyond our control in this area of life, and as much as I would love to take personal responsibility for my life circumstances - I simply cannot. If I had known 13 years ago that refilling that prescription for all those wonderful little pain pills would cost me functioning nuts and a decreased quality of life, you can bet your ass I would have said NO THANK YOU. Be that as it may, I still respect your opinion; but you really should open your eyes a bit more to see the big picture here. This is coming from a guy that frequents both the AAS forum AND the testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) forum for obvious reasons.

My .02c

 

[totalburnout]

We know. That's what we disagree with. How does a guy with TT of 1000 who then drops to 100 when he becomes hypogonadal maintain the same muscle mass and strength over a period of many years? Eating more will just make him fat. You sleep lousy when you have hypogonadism so more lousy sleep won't help. Exercising more might be marginally helpful in offsetting muscle loss; but it could likely be counterproductive as you can't recover normally when you have Low T and you can't add significant muscle mass anymore.

You keep talking about your experience with low T and being able to maintain muscle mass. You didn't have sub-200 TT. If I remember right, you were closer to 400. That's a HUGE difference. Don't act like you know what it is like to have essentially no testosterone in your body.

My last test was 190.

You keep coddling yourself and blaming all the issues on low T. Then save up your T vials so you can run a blast - but still call it testosterone replacement therapy (TRT).

We disagree because I'm not weak minded and I don't give people an easy out. He's not a 'hypogonadal' male. He keeps running cycles and likely did other things before he started his cycles, that brought his T down. Self inflicted pain by 90% of the people that run cycles.

 

[Megatron28]

My last test was 190.

You keep coddling yourself and blaming all the issues on low T. Then save up your T vials so you can run a blast - but still call it testosterone replacement therapy (TRT).

We disagree because I'm not weak minded and I don't give people an easy out. He's not a 'hypogonadal' male. He keeps running cycles and likely did other things before he started his cycles, that brought his T down. Self inflicted pain by 90% of the people that run cycles.

Little slow on the uptake? We haven't been talking about the OP for quite some time.

 

[totalburnout]

Like I said, you are the exception here - not the rule. My total testosterone was 120ng/dL at a PEAK when I was finally diagnosed as primary hypogonadal. I was big time into powerlifting in my teens/early 20's and had amassed a great deal of muscle in those years which simply didn't vanish because I somehow stopped eating (I didn't) or lessened my workouts (I didn't, aside from the weights decreasing). I'm sure that many men find themselves in this position because of obesity first causing hypogonadism, but I was healthy and fit when I became injured. The fact that I was injured while lifting 675lbs of copper wire should speak for itself. The fact is that we cannot maintain an appreciable amount of muscle mass (maybe you and I have different opinions on appreciable) without the vital hormone testosterone.

You bring up a very good point with bodybuilders. I happen to have a few friends that compete and have dreams of earning their pro cards in the future. Guess what? They DON'T come off the juice. Once you surpass your genetic potential for muscle mass, you either have to supplement with more exogenous testosterone, or you lose it. In fact, most of these guys cruise with what most of us would consider a blast. I presented you with an excerpt from an endocrine societal journal complete with a citation to a study, yet you still insist that this is merely a possibility. Sure, but so is atrophy of the gonads or the advancement of male-pattern baldness. Do we all suffer from these? No. But is it a strong possibility if the given genetic predispositions are present? You betcha.

I am not arguing with you because I want to prove you wrong. I want you to understand that there are forces beyond our control in this area of life, and as much as I would love to take personal responsibility for my life circumstances - I simply cannot. If I had known 13 years ago that refilling that prescription for all those wonderful little pain pills would cost me functioning nuts and a decreased quality of life, you can bet your ass I would have said NO THANK YOU. Be that as it may, I still respect your opinion; but you really should open your eyes a bit more to see the big picture here. This is coming from a guy that frequents both the AAS forum AND the testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) forum for obvious reasons.

My .02c

Listen, you're again comparing two hugely different situations. Your T of 190 is starkly different from his T at age 40 of almost 400. One is considered medically hypogonadism while the other is not.

Again, your injury, depression, weight gain, prescription drug use, etc are all more to blame than the low T. Your low T was a symptom of those problems. It's the chicken and the egg here.

You very well may have a different idea of appreciable mass. What people who bodybuild see as appreciable is not natural - you're right. Of course any amount of weight that the person isn't naturally inclined to carry - will begin to fall off when any of a number of factors change. That point can be proved by a change in any of their diets or sleep schedules.

One concept revolves around natural males and the other is around bodybuilders.

Can hypogonadism lead to loss of muscle mass? Absolutely, I never disputed that. Is low T the end all, be all, cause that should absolve people of any sense of personal responsibility? No, because with very few exceptions (like say someone that is below clinically low free T/has very high estrogen) where patients couldn't make lifestyle changes that would improve their quality of life.

What this thread is basically advocating is throwing your hands up and saying, "I have low T, I can't possibly make any changes to my lifestyle to improve my circumstances." Totally bogus.

 

[totalburnout]

Little slow on the uptake? We haven't been talking about the OP for quite some time.

How am I possibly slow on the uptake when you're bending the situation to fit your needs and prove a point.

My point was directed at the OP. We're in his thread after all. If you wanted to make some other point, you probably should've started your own thread.

 

[totalburnout]

Also as I popped my head in another thread, I have to laugh. I'd say re majority of people in this forum that come seeking help for low T are either grossly overweight, have stopped eating healthy and working out regularly or they are relatively lean, workout regularly and fall somewhere between 10-15% body fat.

This of course includes the OP.

Hmmmm. Hmmm.

 

[Megatron28]

Also as I popped my head in another thread, I have to laugh. I'd say re majority of people in this forum that come seeking help for low T are either grossly overweight, have stopped eating healthy and working out regularly or they are relatively lean, workout regularly and fall somewhere between 10-15% body fat.

This of course includes the OP.

Hmmmm. Hmmm.

We know you are perfect and the exception TB. You played in the NFL for 8 years after a 4 year stint in AAA baseball with the Yankees. You didn't drink your first coca cola until you were 23 years old (and you didn't like it). You have a 13 inch penis and do some modeling in Playgirl magazine. If not for that freak head trauma you got while playing football you would still have Natty T of 1600. Must feel great to be you and be able to look down upon everyone.

Guys come here for help -- not to be judged and made to feel worse.

 

[totalburnout]

When people do stupid things, they shouldn't be coddled, they should be told what's wrong so they can change.

The answer isn't always at the bottom of a vial of T.

 

[Megatron28]

When people do stupid things, they shouldn't be coddled, they should be told what's wrong so they can change.

The answer isn't always at the bottom of a vial of T.

Dammit Halfwit! Why can't you go back 10 years and tell yourself to NOT listen to your doctors advice and instead refuse that pain medication prescription? It is all your fault that you have not undone this. You have been told what you did wrong. It is up to you to go change now. Gotta lift yourself up by the boot straps!

TB: How much longer until you fix yourself and get off the needle? You must be going back to your natty T soon, right?

 

[totalburnout]

Dammit Halfwit! Why can't you go back 10 years and tell yourself to NOT listen to your doctors advice and instead refuse that pain medication prescription? It is all your fault that you have not undone this. You have been told what you did wrong. It is up to you to go change now. Gotta lift yourself up by the boot straps!

Hey Mega, why don't you go take a controlled substance in a dose not doctor prescribed? How about we just give your doctor a call and let him know? That wouldn't be very much fun, right? But I guess at that point, you'll say the doctor just doesn't understand how tough you have it. Prescriptions and doses are created for a reason. Yes more T would make anyone feel better and gain more mass. That doesn't mean this is a catch all prescription, without trade offs, that any person should be able to self prescribe in any dose they'd like.

Woe is me.

Stop being so weak and helpless.

My point still stands. It's not a foregone conclusion that you'll lose mass if you have low T. It's highly dependent on how low the T is and what your lifestyle is. Halfwit doesn't even come close to fitting in that box as he had a whole host of other medical issues that caused the problem. The OP is inflicting this pain on himself by being simple minded and doing some idiotic things. Oh I pump my body full of huge amounts of T which are completely unnatural, but when I go back to a normal level, I lose mass. He'd still lose mass at a 1200 T count if he keeps up what he's doing.

 

[riprockwell]

We're still not talking on the right wave length. You're a smart guy. Please don't tell me that you believe low T was the sole cause of that weight gain and muscle loss. Clearly you had extenuating circumstances.

Also, what you cited is what we all know CAN be a general sign/symptom of hypogonadism. That's a CAN BE not an absolute must. It's a symptom, that doesn't show a cause and effect relationship where you can point to a 1 to 1 relationship that when T count goes down, muscle mass AUTOMATICALLY declines. There's a correlation for sure but at the end of the day, even if it takes more work and modifications to sleep, training, and eating - you absolutely can maintain muscle mass with low T. Again, I just point to bodybuilders that are off cycle. Why don't they just whither away?

This concept is being oversimplified because people don't want to look in the mirror and tell themselves the cold hard truth. "Oh, I only lost muscle because of low T." No, absolutely not. You lost muscle because of a number of different factors, many of which you could have controlled but either chose not to or simply didn't know how to control them. That doesn't make anyone less of a man. It just means some people are willing to pass responsibility and the buck rather than having some personal responsibility and self awareness.

Anyone who blasts and cruises will not agree with me - because they've proven they rather rely on the chemical rather than alter other things.

Honestly, I disagree with you. I can say that Low T was the sole cause of my weight gain and muscle loss. I have been around for awhile and I always had a great physique and low body fat and good muscle mass. That was until I had a pituitary trauma and my T levels crashed. Even on the most strict diet and one that has helped me pack on mass for years did nothing for me when my T levels were down in the 200 range. My muscles looked flat and I was getting fatter even when cutting on clean diet. A lot of bodybuilders off cycle do whither away unless they are on a cruise dose and it also depends on how far they are past their genetic limit. I do agree that a lot of guys who cycle don't do a proper post cycle therapy (pct) and training but again the ones who cycle and don't whither up probably had a great post cycle therapy (pct), diet, training and didn't have a Total Test leaving them in the 200 range when it was all said and done.

You can have your opinion on the matter but I have all my t's crossed and my i's dotted in regards to my health. I lost muscle with my low T. I was even doing the 5X5 routine which always packed on muscle for me. I was slowly diminishing away. So with that being said, I will say that you will lose muscle mass with low T levels regardless of the safe guards you have in place. You are fighting an uphill battle. You can have your opinion but remember, that's not the consensus. Get your T level to a 200 and see if you don't have muscle loss. Just how low is the question. However, like I said, if OP has all the classic signs of low T, then I can say that he will eventually lose muscle at those low levels. And remember, when I was a 200 TT, I felt like death. Like was mentioned, my workouts fatigued me all day long, sleep was hard to come by, etc. Once they were slightly increased by gels to 450 TT, I felt a ton better. I do believe that if a man is experiencing Low T symptoms, it is nearly impossible to "not" lose muscle. There is always that rare exception, but it's just that......an exception.

 

[totalburnout]

200 levels are not even close to the OP's 400 level.

Again, two different situations. I haven disputed that you can lose muscle mass and its a process over time. What's being talked about here is a DRAMATIC loss of muscle over a SHORT period of time.

As an off shoot and as a comment that is not meant as derogatory but hopefully as helpful info in your weight training...just by saying a 5x5 routine always packed muscle on - leads me to believe you may not be as so well versed in weight training or dieting that there's not a single thing you can do differently. Rep scheme virtually means nothing to muscle gain. That's a pretty old school thought that you can only gain muscle at low reps and heavy weight or vice versa. Basically anything over 60% of your max in a wide variety of rep schemes has proven to increase muscle mass. Just look at Crossfit athletes. The old train of thought was that you couldn't ever build signicant muscle in a routine like that. As long as there's a stimulus for growth (tearing muscle fibers through weight training) and adequate nutrition and rest, you'll grow. Again, look at female Crossfit athletes that carry more muscle mass than most guys and have T counts well below 100. T isn't the sole determining factor. It's a big one that makes things EASIER OR MORE DIFFIULT, but it doesn't make it impossible. That was the entire purpose of all my posts in here.

 

[riprockwell]

200 levels are not even close to the OP's 400 level.

Again, two different situations. I haven disputed that you can lose muscle mass and its a process over time. What's being talked about here is a DRAMATIC loss of muscle over a SHORT period of time.

As an off shoot and as a comment that is not meant as derogatory but hopefully as helpful info in your weight training...just by saying a 5x5 routine always packed muscle on - leads me to believe you may not be as so well versed in weight training or dieting that there's not a single thing you can do differently. Rep scheme virtually means nothing to muscle gain. That's a pretty old school thought that you can only gain muscle at low reps and heavy weight or vice versa. Basically anything over 60% of your max in a wide variety of rep schemes has proven to increase muscle mass. Just look at Crossfit athletes. The old train of thought was that you couldn't ever build signicant muscle in a routine like that. As long as there's a stimulus for growth (tearing muscle fibers through weight training) and adequate nutrition and rest, you'll grow. Again, look at female Crossfit athletes that carry more muscle mass than most guys and have T counts well below 100. T isn't the sole determining factor. It's a big one that makes things EASIER OR MORE DIFFIULT, but it doesn't make it impossible. That was the entire purpose of all my posts in here.

Who talked about reps and maxes in my post?? Dude, if you are gaining strength (which I was), you are putting on muscle. Meaning if you are doing 275lbs on bench 5 times now and then a month later you are doing 275lbs 6 times shows you are gaining. Same goes for higher reps. If some guy is doing 225lbs on bench 15 times now and next month does 225lbs 16 times, he is gaining. Again, the 5X5 has always packed muscle on me because I was gaining STRENGTH. Strength = muscle gain. Again, no one talked about rep scheme. I stated that the 5X5 program has always put on some muscle mass on me with adequate T levels. Thanks for pointing out something that wasn't relevant to this discussing. Again, please show me anywhere in my post that we got in to a training debate?? I mentioned the fact I used 5X5 to put on mass. I also like the 531 program and am doing that now. Did I knock other training styles out there?? No, I simply stated what has worked for me. Do you not think the 5X5 works for building muscle?? Again, the point was that the 5x5 helped me pack on some good muscle of course with good diet (that was already mentioned) when I had good T levels. Once T levels dropped, muscle was being lost. Fact is.....

1. 5X5 packs mass on me with adequate T levels.

When was crossfit mentioned in my post as a lesser workout or higher reps?? Sorry I offended you on your crossfit routine if I did. You can go back to wearing your vibram 5 finger shoes now and climb some ropes. lol

 

[riprockwell]

My point still stands. It's not a foregone conclusion that you'll lose mass if you have low T. It's highly dependent on how low the T is and what your lifestyle is.

See, does your argument here say that there is a dramatic loss of muscle over a short period. No, what you are saying is that it is based on a lifestyle. My lifestyle was the same it was when I had great T levels, yet they diminished. And trust me, it didn't take years. No shit it is dependent on how low the T is. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. However, if a guy is suffering from low T with negative symptoms, I can say that he will be losing muscle mass. Period.

Again, two different situations. I haven disputed that you can lose muscle mass and its a process over time. What's being talked about here is a DRAMATIC loss of muscle over a SHORT period of time.

Again, contradictions from you. I am seriously done arguing with you. Your last post about "rep schemes" made you look like a jack ass already. Besides, everyone here pretty much has the same opinion on you as I do. Remember the saying....."never argue with an idiot.......they bring you down to their level and beat you on experience."

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Also as I popped my head in another thread, I have to laugh. I'd say re majority of people in this forum that come seeking help for low T are either grossly overweight, have stopped eating healthy and working out regularly or they are relatively lean, workout regularly and fall somewhere between 10-15% body fat.

This of course includes the OP.

Hmmmm. Hmmm.

When people do stupid things, they shouldn't be coddled, they should be told what's wrong so they can change.

The answer isn't always at the bottom of a vial of T.

You are a total moron, what does a workout regimen have to do with low testosterone? Were are not talking about steroid cycles here where the common recommendation is to wait until your under 15% to cycle, this is a medical condition we are talking about, and wether he ever works out or not has nothing to do with the situation.

You are confused, as usual. You are the one that does not need coddling, you need to learn the difference between testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) and steroid use, it sounds to me like you have only ever done the latter.........