Tired of losing everything I gain. Question about HRT

[Megatron28]

TotalB: You are a real humanitarian.

 

[halfwit]

Rip - Dumbass I was the person to say that strength correlates with mass. I wasn't the dumb fuck that you were that insinuated that an increase in strength means an increase in mass.

See, that post was wayyyy more humorous to read, as you struggled to give a witty response (your witty response never came, I'm sorry to say but I'll give you a sympathy trophy for trying). Totalburnout is a pun. It started 12 years ago when I was a teenager on a car forum. Get it? I made it sound like I was a stoner but I was actually referring to a car's tires burning out. Okay, in sure even you get the point now.

Halfwit - not sure what question I dodged. I could infer that your argument was going to be that clomid on a person with high normal (or perhaps even normal) LH and FSH readings would be a waste of time. In general, I'd agree but I'd want to confirm that trend with multiple points of reference through multiple blood tests over a period of time - or go the more direct and faster route by trying clomid instead of waiting for 3-6months of bloodwork that will 1) be time consuming 2) be more costly 3) be less definitive.

And no, this condescending asshole personality is all me - especially when people like DET, ripped or Mega are also going to try to get on soap boxes, thud their chest and try to show their dominance. Bullshit. A guy like DET has a lot of knowledge on hormones - far more knowledge overall than myself - but the problem is that he clearly isn't that intelligent and the application of his knowledge is flawed.

I don't blame him, he works for IMT. His job is to sell his product. I'm the guy that's here to call his mass pedaling of his product as a sham and bullshit. Tru testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) is applicable to a very select group of patients and shouldn't be promoted as a catch all solution (and isn't prescribed wholesale by actual, respectable doctors).

That's my entire beef with this forum vs MesoRX. With that said, there's a select few knowledgable people on this forum (mainly yourself and DET) that I have learned from, so I continue to frequent, post, learn and give back. I've learned that on here, I have to be an extra large asshole and dish some tough love because no one else will play that role.

The question that you never answered was: "What do you expect to happen if a person has a normal/high LH and FSH value when put on Clomid?"

If these levels of hormones are already at clinically healthy levels, but the person has a sub-bottom range serum testosterone level - how can they benefit from putting them on the drug? Are you saying that putting someone on Clomid can avoid more blood tests in the future? Either way, the person going on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) would need to have blood tests performed anyway - so I'd opt to have them try something that would work instead of giving false hope knowing that a certain protocol will do nothing more than cost them money and time.

I'm sure you remember what it was like to have low-T, right? The second you found out what the cause of your woes was, didn't you want it fixed? I personally wanted it fixed first, cause found second. I can understand your conservative stance on this therapy, but offering to put someone on something that a doctor knows won't help is not only dishonest, but borderline malpractice. Should there be tests during the interim looking at the adrenals/hypothalamus/pituitary/negative feedback loop? Yes, I do think these should be ruled out as well as an inspection to verify that there aren't any varicoceles possibly causing the condition. But what do you do when nothing is found? Tell the guy that it's his fault and he should fix his diet/exercise regimen and come back in six months? None of us are doctors, but we've had to learn more than the Average Joe because our doctors just don't know this stuff at all.

You've made a good point in that many of us have a very sour opinion of doctors. This is true, look at how many guys come in here without a clue as to why they feel like utter crap and their doc wants to put them on an entire pharmacy's stockpile of SSRI's/Benzo's/antipsychotics instead of saying, "Hey! You have low testosterone pal, let's investigate this further!" It's even worse when a family doc wants to help, so he just puts a guy on 100mg of test every month (I've seen this lovely protocol come up a few times) and sends him out the door. The poor schmuck comes here looking for answers and finds out that we with experience know you can't have a protocol like this, but it's our word versus a doctor's. Doctors are people my friend, they make mistakes and have pride to contend with. It takes a lot for a man to admit when he's wrong, but compound that with an ego from being "more intelligent" than the average person and a decade of schooling. It's a dangerous combination, that leads to improper choices because they either don't care to learn more about what they're doing or simply don't know that there's more to what they're getting into. Simply put, I don't trust doctors any more than I trust my mailman. Take from that what you will.

I really don't see what benefit you think you provide by being the "extra large asshole" to dish out some "tough love". That stance works with children, which I assure you the vast majority of us are not. I don't agree with every post I see on here, but unless it's dangerous advice - I tend to keep it to myself. I would also caution you on assuming a sponsor's intentions and calling them a sham, that's a quick ticket to a ban as this is their forum that they pay for. (I also would hardly call helping guys out a sham, given they do still frequent these forums and post how much their lives have improved.)

Oh, and riprockwell and megatron are good guys. I've learned a LOT from rip long before I ever signed up here, so you shouldn't discount his experience so quickly. DET goes without saying, but like the rest of us humans - is subject to emotions and is going to call folks out if he feels they're being overzealous or full of shit. I do still think you need to take a look at your E2, you're getting way too emotional about this stuff.

My .02c

 

[totalburnout]

Halfwit - well spoken and nothing that I disagree with in principle. Again, there's circumstances where clomid doesn't make sense - both you and mega made good cases for a few select instances. I mean come on - if a guy has no testicles, no brainer, if LH/FSH is super high than again its probably a no brainer. I will tell you that, that sliver of the population is even more remote than even the fraction of the population that has hypogonadism. With all that said and clarified, I don't think you'll find very many cases that fall into the category either you or described. So I still hold steadfast on my point that clomid is beneficial for (and we'll use a modifying word here for clarity) the vast majority of the hypogonadal population.

Unless you have stastics that show this population to be scientifically significant, I'm going to assume my rule of thumb applies to what I currently know as the majority of the population. Maybe
My viewpoint is skewed and there's far more primary cases that show a high normal LH/FSH reading but from the anecdotal evidence on this forum, the two other forums I frequent and the literature I've read - that's simply not the case.

 

[halfwit]

I would actually wager that there close to equal numbers for primary versus secondary men out there to be honest. Here's what definition I could find and why I've been going about this in a roundabout method:

Primary hypogonadism

Primary hypogonadism is caused by testicular failure and is characterised by low serum testosterone and high LH and FSH concentrations. For this reason, primary hypogonadism is also known as hypergonadotropic hypogonadism. Primary hypogonadism can result from testicular injury, tumour, or infection; genetic defects affecting testicular development (e.g. Klinefelter syndrome), as well as chemotherapy, radiation treatment or alcohol abuse (3,16).

Secondary hypogonadism

In secondary hypogonadism (hypogonadotropic hypogonadism), defects in the hypothalamus or pituitary result in low testosterone levels because of insufficient stimulation of the Leydig cells. It is also associated with low or low-normal FSH and LH levels. Patients with secondary hypogonadism can have their fertility restored by suitable hormonal stimulation, whereas those with primary hypogonadism resulting from testicular failure cannot. Secondary hypogonadism can be caused by a number of conditions (Table 3) including hypothalamic and pituitary disorders or lesions, hyperprolactinemia and Kallmann syndrome (which causes a GnRH deficiency) (16). Certain medications and illnesses can also affect the hypothalamic–pituitary system resulting in hypogonadism (17).

Source: A practical guide to male hypogonadism in the primary care setting

The reason why I asked if you thought Clomid would fix a man with what you now know is the very definition of hypergonotropic hypogonadism (primary) was more or less to stress to you that even though I do believe the majority of men are secondary - a simple blood test for LH/FSH can rule out such treatments. This was the point I think Megatron was trying to make.

Here's a nifty chart from the same page that shows a rough breakdown on each type:

Table 3

Causes of male hypogonadism (3,16,76)

Primary hypogonadism

• Congenital anorchidism
• Cryptorchidism
• Mumps orchitis
• Genetic and developmental conditions: Klinefelter syndrome,androgen receptor and enzyme
• Defects, Sertoli cell only syndrome
• Radiation treatment/chemotherapy
• Testicular trauma
• Autoimmune syndromes (anti-Leydig cell disorders)

Secondary hypogonadism

• Genetic conditions: Kallmann’s syndrome, Prader-Willisyndrome
• Pituitary tumours, granulomas, abscesses
• Hyperprolactinemia
• Cranial trauma
• Radiation treatment
• Various medications

Mixed (primary and secondary) hypogonadism*

• Alcohol abuse
• Ageing
• Chronic infections (HIV)
• Corticosteroid treatment
• Hemochromatosis
• Systemic disease (liver failure, uremia, sickle-cell disease)

*Mixed hypogonadism is often included within the secondary hypogonadism category.

As you can see, there are far more secondary causes - which is why I agree with your assertion that the majority of patients could be secondary. I did try to find a statistic on which is more prevalent, but the best I could find was on a website that I am not sure of its credibility: What is hypogonadism They state that primary is the most common, but given how Klinefelter's (having an extra X chromosome) is largely to blame - that could be why.

Anyhoo, my point is that while you're right in that not everyone should be immediately be placed on testosterone replacement - it is pretty easy to find out if a doctor can rule out secondary hypogonadism and go from there. Sadly, many doctors still don't know this and are quick to act without first finding this all-to-important information out first. It's also why I think we shouldn't blame folks for being hypogonadal as many of those causes are not preventable with just diet and exercise.

Hope this helps explain things from my side of the computer screen a little better.

 

[totalburnout]

Given that explanation, there's nothing I would argue with. That IS a good chart. Appreciate the research and info.

 

[anzel]

To address your situation, I think much of your damage is probably self inflicted or related to the aging process. That won't exclude you from benefiting from testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). At this point an online lab certainly will write a script while it'll be hit or miss with an in person physician.

You're going to have less oversight with the online clinic and be able to do more of what you're interested.

I'm not flaming you in any of my posts, I'm flaming the idea that testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) is for body building purposes. It's a serious condition that naturally effects many and I don't think the legitimacy of the treatment should be diminished by bullshit cases. That will only set back future treatment options for males if the treatment isn't looked upon as a legitimate medical treatment.

I'd advise anyone who is thinking of testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) to at least attempt a restart before making the final decision to be on a life long treatment.

Right I understand what your saying and really I did initiate this thread with "tired of losing my gains" so it sound like body building purposes. But I also pointed out that I have a low sex drive and other things that are prob age related. I dont think my low T is self inflicted because I had blood work don 5 yrs ago (before I ever touched T) and it was lower than now. When I was younger I could train and see gains that would stick for a while but as the years have gone by the gains are harder to achieve and to keep but my training is better now and my diet is spot on.
At this point I dont know if I am still interested in blasting and cruising but I am interested in TRT.
I will be getting in touch with a testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) doc this week and will see. keep you guys posted. Thanks