TRT, had high E on 100mg/week, switched to 50mg/E3.5D subq, where do I go from here?

R

RickP

New member
My doctor wanted to give me arimidex to control the E but I told him I'd rather experiment with more frequent injections first. So i tried 50mg/E3.5D subq and after 5 weeks I did a test.

Here are the results (the unit conversion is mine, I had them done back in Italy while I was on holiday)

E2 131 pmol/L (73-172) ---- 35.7 pg/ml (19.9-46.8)
Test 18.48 nmol/L (6.10-27.00) ---- 533 ng/dl (176-779)

Previously I had only done a T test on 100mg/week and my trough levels were ~330.

So... the current regimen seems to put E2 under control, but Test could be higher. Where do I go from here? Is it worth optimizing T (and possibly E2) further? If i had 700 T and 25 E2 would I feel like a different man?

I really like subQ so I was thinking along the lines of ~35mg/EOD.
 
good question. They didn't have anything like that in Italy (and the normal ranges are even more criminal than in the US). But even here in the US the doctor prescribed me a Fractionated Estrogen test (not done yet), which I don't know if it's sensitive or not.

EDIT: It looks like it does.
questdiagnostics.com/testcenter/TestDetail.action?ntc=36742&fromFlyOut=true
but is sensitive and ultrasensitive the same?
 
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I could I guess, but why would it be any better than arimidex? Plus, at these doses and frequencies I don't think I need special Aromatase Inhibition on injection day.
 
How do you feel? I had similar numbers on 50 e3.5d, (483 TT 34 E2) then went to 50 E3d, felt a little better, just went up to 60 e3d last week and feel Much better all the time and haven't noticed any sides. Getting bloodwork soon to verify, but I feel great on this dosage and thats what really matters imo.
 
TRTnooby said:
How do you feel? I had similar numbers on 50 e3.5d, (483 TT 34 E2) then went to 50 E3d, felt a little better, just went up to 60 e3d last week and feel Much better all the time and haven't noticed any sides. Getting bloodwork soon to verify, but I feel great on this dosage and thats what really matters imo.
Click to expand...

Just be careful. Everyone feels awesome when they bump doses - until estrogen creeps up. Not saying it will, but it might. at 60mg E3D my estrogen is actually too low.

RickP - So that value is trough, correct? Its not horrid, but obviously you want it higher. A bit of advice, that I am also trying to apply to my own treatment as of late - go slow. 5 weeks after a dose adjustment is definitely nice and slow. I have the problem of adjusting, then adjusting the adjustment, etc... then never know what my bloodwork is really even showing. Takes weeks for it to all even out.

Logical approach, in my mind, is to bump slowly until you find the sweet spot. For some, thats getting T to a spot where they can balance E with no AI. For others, thats 200mg a week of test, with an AI to keep estrogen in check.

If I was you, and I had an AI on hand, I would bump another 10-20mg a week, and re-test after 4-5 weeks.

As for the EOD. I started on ED injections, then EOD, then E3D, currently E3.5D. I am still feeling it all out, but thus far, I have felt best on E3.5D. Some around here report feeling best on as much as E5D or even weekly. More frequent != feel better in all cases.

-Jim
 
I don't think it's a trough. It was 48 hours after an injection, so more of a peak. But at 3.5D subq i doubt there's much difference between peak and trough.

Would you trust the italian E2 non-sensitive test or should I use that script for fractionated E I have here in the US?

I'd love to bump my dose and stay on E3.5D but I just figured out how to avoid itchy lumps from subq and increasing the dose will not help.
 
RickP said:
My doctor wanted to give me arimidex to control the E but I told him I'd rather experiment with more frequent injections first. So i tried 50mg/E3.5D subq and after 5 weeks I did a test.

Here are the results (the unit conversion is mine, I had them done back in Italy while I was on holiday)

E2 131 pmol/L (73-172) ---- 35.7 pg/ml (19.9-46.8)
Test 18.48 nmol/L (6.10-27.00) ---- 533 ng/dl (176-779)

Previously I had only done a T test on 100mg/week and my trough levels were ~330.

So... the current regimen seems to put E2 under control, but Test could be higher. Where do I go from here? Is it worth optimizing T (and possibly E2) further? If i had 700 T and 25 E2 would I feel like a different man?

I really like subQ so I was thinking along the lines of ~35mg/EOD.
Click to expand...

Are those trough levels(day of shot but before shot)?
Your E2 is not high at all...
What was your E2 like on 100 mg a week?
 
@Jim: I tried the back fat but I didn't see any difference with the lumps. But massaging them well to disperse the fat seems to help a lot.

@Apollon:

330 is my trough level for 100mg/week, (tested right before my next injection), 533 was taken 48 hours after one of my E3.5D injections so it's peak-ish i guess.
E2 is not high now, I agree, but it might creep up again as I try to increase T levels.

My doctor did not test for E2 on the 100mg/week protocol, only for total E and it came back high. I had to ask him to please do an E2 test and he submitted a fractionated E test, but apparently he never tested for E2 before because once he sent the samples the lab told them they can't do those unless you draw at the test center, so from that test I only got E1 back (normal). I don't wanna go back to 100mg/week anyway because I don't want to use those big ass needles.
 
So you don't know if you had high estradiol or not on the 100mg once per week protocol.

Anyhow, on the twice weekly subq, your numbers look OK. As to your question of whether or not you will feel much better on a higher Test dosage is hard to answer. Everyone is different. A lot of guys don't notice a difference between 500ng/dl and 800ng/dl. But a lot of guys do. What it really comes down to is that you simply have to try it out for yourself and see if you notice a difference. You also have to weight it against the likelihood that estradiol may become more problematic on a higher test dosage. As well, subq injections are not good for higher injections volumes. So you might have to inject more frequently than twice a week if you want to increase your dosage and stick with subq. Just some things to think about if you want to see how a higher dosage of teat feels.

Also, how did you feel when you took 100mg once per week? You peak TT levels might have been approaching 1000ng/dl. Did you notice any difference at the beginning of the week compared to the end of the week? I know this is hard to determine because you don't know what your estradiol was doing...

Unfortunately, getting dialed in on a TRT protocol can take a lot of trial and error to see what works best for you.

Maybe give the Basic TRT Overview sticky thread a read. I shared some of my experiences about trying to get dialed in there.
 
RickP said:
@Jim: I tried the back fat but I didn't see any difference with the lumps. But massaging them well to disperse the fat seems to help a lot.

@Apollon:

330 is my trough level for 100mg/week, (tested right before my next injection), 533 was taken 48 hours after one of my E3.5D injections so it's peak-ish i guess.
E2 is not high now, I agree, but it might creep up again as I try to increase T levels.

My doctor did not test for E2 on the 100mg/week protocol, only for total E and it came back high. I had to ask him to please do an E2 test and he submitted a fractionated E test, but apparently he never tested for E2 before because once he sent the samples the lab told them they can't do those unless you draw at the test center, so from that test I only got E1 back (normal). I don't wanna go back to 100mg/week anyway because I don't want to use those big ass needles.
Click to expand...

533 is garbage....
but each and every person is unique in how they feel.
Whats your HCT like?
See how you feel for a bit, your HCT probably will be less likely to climb at that T level...
 
Jimstigator said:
Just be careful. Everyone feels awesome when they bump doses - until estrogen creeps up. Not saying it will, but it might. at 60mg E3D my estrogen is actually too low.

RickP - So that value is trough, correct? Its not horrid, but obviously you want it higher. A bit of advice, that I am also trying to apply to my own treatment as of late - go slow. 5 weeks after a dose adjustment is definitely nice and slow. I have the problem of adjusting, then adjusting the adjustment, etc... then never know what my bloodwork is really even showing. Takes weeks for it to all even out.

Logical approach, in my mind, is to bump slowly until you find the sweet spot. For some, thats getting T to a spot where they can balance E with no AI. For others, thats 200mg a week of test, with an AI to keep estrogen in check.

If I was you, and I had an AI on hand, I would bump another 10-20mg a week, and re-test after 4-5 weeks.

As for the EOD. I started on ED injections, then EOD, then E3D, currently E3.5D. I am still feeling it all out, but thus far, I have felt best on E3.5D. Some around here report feeling best on as much as E5D or even weekly. More frequent != feel better in all cases.

-Jim
Click to expand...

What does 60 mg E3D have you at ?
I was 950 TT and Estradiol (reg panel) 55 pg / ml
(Noticed some insomnia harder to get to sleep before 4AM)
But great recovery in gym trumphed all neg. Sides.
This level was 6 weeks into protocol.
 
@Megatron: no only that total E was high and E1 was normal. And no I did not feel any T bump with once a week injections. But E2 was not the only reason i switched to subq. No way I'm going back to those thick long IM needles. It's girly insulin needles for lyfe bro.

It sounds like the first step could be 120mg/week as 52mg/E3d and test T/E2 again in 5-6 weeks.

@APOLLON: HCT was in normal range. I guess if I bump to 120mg/week I will need to have it re-tested. Honestly if the only was to be AI free is to stay at 533, I will just consider a low dose of AI and bump my T up to 700.
 
APOLLON said:
What does 60 mg E3D have you at ?
I was 950 TT and Estradiol (reg panel) 55 pg / ml
(Noticed some insomnia harder to get to sleep before 4AM)
But great recovery in gym trumphed all neg. Sides.
This level was 6 weeks into protocol.
Click to expand...

Despite having a massive spreadsheet, I seem to be missing that entry. I'll have to find the lab. Closest I have is 56/E3D put me at 792 peak (348-1197). Sensitive E was low. I am not too settled on this reading as I wasn't on the protocol for that long before the draw.

Currently waiting on results from 60/E3.5D.

When I did 28mg EOD (approx 100 a week), I averaged a TT of 900. With an equal amount of test per week, EOD definitely takes you further.

-Jim
 
RickP said:
@Megatron: no only that total E was high and E1 was normal. And no I did not feel any T bump with once a week injections. But E2 was not the only reason i switched to subq. No way I'm going back to those thick long IM needles. It's girly insulin needles for lyfe bro.

It sounds like the first step could be 120mg/week as 52mg/E3d and test T/E2 again in 5-6 weeks.

@APOLLON: HCT was in normal range. I guess if I bump to 120mg/week I will need to have it re-tested. Honestly if the only was to be AI free is to stay at 533, I will just consider a low dose of AI and bump my T up to 700.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Just take it slow. If you need an AI to get over 500-600, its probably worth it.

-Jim
 
By the way, I get why people have different amount of aromatisation for the same amount of T, but why are people so different wrt to T injected -> T levels. I'm 5'7", I doubt these people going around at 900T on 100mg/week are so much smaller than me. What is the physiological reason I get rid of T faster?
 
RickP said:
By the way, I get why people have different amount of aromatisation for the same amount of T, but why are people so different wrt to T injected -> T levels. I'm 5'7", I doubt these people going around at 900T on 100mg/week are so much smaller than me. What is the physiological reason I get rid of T faster?
Click to expand...

Metabolization of the Testosterone. Aromatization affects TT levels. Size. Muscle mass. Lots of factors affect it.
 
RickP said:
By the way, I get why people have different amount of aromatisation for the same amount of T, but why are people so different wrt to T injected -> T levels. I'm 5'7", I doubt these people going around at 900T on 100mg/week are so much smaller than me. What is the physiological reason I get rid of T faster?
Click to expand...

Don't forget injection frequency as well. My TT can hit 950 with virtually zero trough injecting EOD for a total of 100mg a week. Or I can hit 700-750 peak doing like 120-130mg test a week injected E3.5D.

-Jim
 
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