Ups and downs - Trt dosage and e2

[Markj]

Hi

I recently switched from transdermals to IM Injections (Sustenon).

After a week off the transdermals my starting dose was 250mg Sustenon (front load).

This was followed by 80mg e3/4d (200 pw).

Day #0 Start Sustenon 250mg
Day #1 Nothing
Day #2 Slightly more energy?
Day #3Better mood. Sus. 90mg
Day #4 Better mood
Day #5 Better mood again
Day #6 Feeling stronger, more energy.
Day #7 Feel good in morning. Sus. 110mg ***8211; felt faint 4 hours later. Nights sweats (High E2?)
Day #8 - Crashed! Low spirits.
Day #9 Low spirits again
Day #10 Better
Day #11 Blood test done. Results were T level 980, E2 level up to 40pg/ml (normally 19pg/ml)
Day #12 Reduced dose 70mg. slight night sweat
Day #13 Generally ok. Libido down

Based in this the Dr prescribed Arimidex a very low dose twice per week. .25mg. Just today. So haven't started as yet (I was hoping not need Arimidex if possible).

Based on your experience, questions I have are:
1. What would cause the crash on day 7?
2. And is it better to reduce my dose to 180mg pw or even less?
3. What'sthe best way to reset or clear the excess E2? Presumably the E2 will exit the system, just not sure how long it takes to come back down.

Also I'm moving to enathate which has not the short chain esters that Sustenon has.
Thanks in advance.

 

[halfwit]

It takes much longer for esterfied testosterone to bring your blood levels up to where you feel better. I would imagine that what you're experiencing is both a crash of estradiol and testosterone, while you wait for them to build up.

Stop changing doses, and give it time. Optimally, sustanon would be injected EOD to take advantage of the propionate ester, but the fact that the majority of the blend is decanoate and enanthate/cypionate, you can get by E3.5D. I would expect you to feel relief in a few more weeks.

My .02c

 

[Markj]

Thanks halfwit - the initial larger dose was meant to get my dosage levels up from the outset.

I calculated I'm getting about a 25mg hit on injection days. Given that these cause night sweats, and that night sweats are a sign of high e2 dropping, I'm thinking that the disease is too high.

Or does the body eventually adjust to the additional testosterone being introduced?

I can always go up again.

 

[halfwit]

Thanks halfwit - the initial larger dose was meant to get my dosage levels up from the outset.

I calculated I'm getting about a 25mg hit on injection days. Given that these cause night sweats, and that night sweats are a sign of high e2 dropping, I'm thinking that the disease is too high.

Or does the body eventually adjust to the additional testosterone being introduced?

I can always go up again.

Many things can trigger a sympathetic nervous system reaction (sweating in this case), one of them being hormonal fluctuations. I would advise you allow things to settle down first. If you are still having issues (a blood panel is a good idea too) in 4 weeks, then I would look at doses.

 

[Markj]

It takes much longer for esterfied testosterone to bring your blood levels up to where you feel better. I would imagine that what you're experiencing is both a crash of estradiol and testosterone, while you wait for them to build up.

My testosterone level is at 980. Would that not represent the blood levels? This was tested two days ago day #11 as a precaution.

Also my estradiol has not crashed, rather it's gone up.

 

[halfwit]

My testosterone level is at 980. Would that not represent the blood levels? This was tested two days ago day #11 as a precaution.

Also my estradiol has not crashed, rather it's gone up.

When was your blood test done? You will see elevated levels for several days after ceasing the use of the transdermal, but I would be surprised if you're seeing that already from the sustanon after less than two weeks.

 

[Alpin]

FYI
U can get compounded scripts for Adex...
I wouldn't necessarily say 0.25 mg is the lowest dose.
You can get compounded strengths at 0.0625 mg, 0.125 mg for Adex use them properly according to adex's half life(EOD)and avoid crashing your Estradiol that the larger doses can over time..
I don't know how lean u are but that counts big time too as far as a.i. dose is concerned...

 

[Markj]

Day #11 was the last blood test, three days ago now.

 

[Markj]

When was your blood test done? You will see elevated levels for several days after ceasing the use of the transdermal, but I would be surprised if you're seeing that already from the sustanon after less than two weeks.

Day #11 was the last blood test, three days ago now.
I stopped the transdermals a week prior to day #0.
The initial larger 250mg dose followed by e3/4d dosing was meant to bring my levels up more rapidly than just the e3/4d alone. The shorter acting esters in sustenon support that. Calculations were that I was getting between 30mg to 19mg deesterfied T per day in the first week.

 

[Markj]

FYI
U can get compounded scripts for Adex...
I wouldn't necessarily say 0.25 mg is the lowest dose.
You can get compounded strengths at 0.0625 mg, 0.125 mg for Adex use them properly according to adex's half life(EOD)and avoid crashing your Estradiol that the larger doses can over time..
I don't know how lean u are but that counts big time too as far as a.i. dose is concerned...

So you would suggest splitting the dose to 0.125 EOD?
Also should this be aligned with the injections?

 

[halfwit]

Day #11 was the last blood test, three days ago now.
I stopped the transdermals a week prior to day #0.
The initial larger 250mg dose followed by e3/4d dosing was meant to bring my levels up more rapidly than just the e3/4d alone. The shorter acting esters in sustenon support that. Calculations were that I was getting between 30mg to 19mg deesterfied T per day in the first week.

So essentially you received 460mg of testosterone in the first week? Yes, frontloading is common, but I thought it was just a single 250mg bump.

You can't really look at it by weight that way. Everyone cleaves esters at differing rates and as there are multiple half-lives in sustanon, you will be looking at a decay and rise at the same time. As it's logarithmic, it would be three to four independent equations linked to an output that's still dependent on your metabolism.
I would still give it time before touching anything.

 

[Alpin]

So you would suggest splitting the dose to 0.125 EOD?
Also should this be aligned with the injections?

I don't "suggest" anything cause I'm not a doctor...
What I do personally is use lowest dose first and preferably on day of shot...all these stuff requires frequent blood work and steady administration schedules to find out exactly where u are at.
For the record....
I'm probably second to none in my country on labwork for Test...

 

[Markj]

So essentially you received 460mg of testosterone in the first week? Yes, frontloading is common, but I thought it was just a single 250mg bump.

You can't really look at it by weight that way. Everyone cleaves esters at differing rates and as there are multiple half-lives in sustanon, you will be looking at a decay and rise at the same time. As it's logarithmic, it would be three to four independent equations linked to an output that's still dependent on your metabolism.
I would still give it time before touching anything.

Yes, 450mg over days 1 to 7.

I did do a spreadsheet based on the half lives in order to track the daily deesterfication. It worked out to be 30 to 18 mg per day, dropping down to 25 to 15 per day.

 

[halfwit]

Yes, 450mg over days 1 to 7.

I did do a spreadsheet based on the half lives in order to track the daily deesterfication. It worked out to be 30 to 18 mg per day, dropping down to 25 to 15 per day.

Excel is a wonderful tool, but it can't tell you more than the "best case" approximation. You may not be getting 100% of the hormone by mass after removing the ester. There's also variances in how the CYP3A14 process of metabolization will impact your serum levels. I personally do like modeling things out via excel, but I have to remind myself it's just a very rough approximation of things. (for instance, there's no set formula for conversion to ng/dL serum total testosterone from mg/wk injections)

The big frontload explains the higher test, and possibly some issues. That's a big spike, followed by a crash.

 

[Markj]

Excel is a wonderful tool, but it can't tell you more than the "best case" approximation. You may not be getting 100% of the hormone by mass after removing the ester. There's also variances in how the CYP3A14 process of metabolization will impact your serum levels. I personally do like modeling things out via excel, but I have to remind myself it's just a very rough approximation of things. (for instance, there's no set formula for conversion to ng/dL serum total testosterone from mg/wk injections)

The big frontload explains the higher test, and possibly some issues. That's a big spike, followed by a crash.

I'm using excel to track the dose. Like a diary while I get dialed in. The values can be viewed in relative terms, rather than indicating exact measurements.

 

[Alpin]

Show us a glimpse...
Graphs and Math are good stuff

 

[Markj]

Show us a glimpse...
Graphs and Math are good stuff

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