What do you think about this?

[Knight9]

I don't believe the half life of Enanthate or Cyp is 10.5 days...so this could be inaccurate. I have been under the impression it is far less for a long time and this info that is being taken as fact may be far outdated.
The following is by Blut Wump (on another forum) from Sept 2009.
I have pretty much adhered to this since...I was pretty sure most of us in this sport had abolished the 10.5 day half life!


Here's the 'standard' table that's touted around the Internet:

Ester Active half-life
Formate 1.5 days
Acetate 3 days
Propionate 4.5 days
Phenylpropionate 4.5 days
Butyrate 6 days
Valerate 7.5 days
Hexanoate 9 days
Caproate 9 days
Isocaproate 9 days
Heptanoate 10.5 days
Enanthate 10.5 days
Octanoate 12 days
Cypionate 12 days
Nonanoate 13.5 days
Decanoate 15 days
Undecanoate 16.5 days

Sadly, it's wrong. The table works to a basic assumption of 1.5 days per carbon atom. It was based on a response in the levator ani muscle of a rat in vitro.

These are the values a bit of research came up with for the various common esters:
Ace - between 28 and 36 hours
Prop - 2.5 days
PhenylProp - 3 days
Enan - 4.5 days
Cyp - 5 days or 8 days (there's some confusion here which I can ignore since I never use cyp)
Deca - 6 days
Undecylenate/Undecanoate - 7 days

 

[halfwit]

i used the half life calc halfwit linked to and plumbed in 10.5 in the half life column and 7 in the input time. so this would emulate doing a 500mg test e cycle injecting once per week. ive searched online on how many mg of test a male produces in a day and it seems its around 5 - 7mg which would be 35mg - 49mg (i dont know how accurate this is maybe someone knowledgeable can correct me)

so assuming average normal test production a week would be 42mg. going by the weeks below it would take till week 20 which is 8 weeks after last pin to reach "normal" levels. so pct shouldnt really be started till somewhere around 8 weeks after last pin? can someone confirm I've misconstrued these results or does it seem legit?

The only problem is that I have no idea how to model the actual metabolization of the hormone once it's in the body. I do know from experience that it typically takes around 4-6 weeks to drop back down to "normal" levels after a blast based on blood work, but no idea how this translates to actual ng/dL values which is also going to be different from person to person due to how we each process the hormone differently. This also doesn't take into account aromatization, which will most certainly effect values as well.

I don't believe the half life of Enanthate or Cyp is 10.5 days...so this could be inaccurate.

Enanthate is 10.5 days, cypionate is 12 days.

 

[Knight9]

Im about to start a cycle of 600 Test E / 600 NPP....
I was planning 200/200 MWF but this entire discussion has made me think about doing other things.


Such as Test E one injection every 5-7 days
NPP....every 4th day(or E3d)


I'm truly at the point where my analyzing has handicapped my thought process...

 

[XELFLEC]

Im about to start a cycle of 600 Test E / 600 NPP....
I was planning 200/200 MWF but this entire discussion has made me think about doing other things.


Such as Test E one injection every 5-7 days
NPP....every 4th day(or E3d)


I'm truly at the point where my analyzing has handicapped my thought process...

Ditto lol only difference between us is I'm about to do prop and not E

 

[halfwit]

I don't believe the half life of Enanthate or Cyp is 10.5 days...so this could be inaccurate. I have been under the impression it is far less for a long time and this info that is being taken as fact may be far outdated.
The following is by Blut Wump (on another forum) from Sept 2009.
I have pretty much adhered to this since...I was pretty sure most of us in this sport had abolished the 10.5 day half life!


Here's the 'standard' table that's touted around the Internet:

Ester Active half-life
Formate 1.5 days
Acetate 3 days
Propionate 4.5 days
Phenylpropionate 4.5 days
Butyrate 6 days
Valerate 7.5 days
Hexanoate 9 days
Caproate 9 days
Isocaproate 9 days
Heptanoate 10.5 days
Enanthate 10.5 days
Octanoate 12 days
Cypionate 12 days
Nonanoate 13.5 days
Decanoate 15 days
Undecanoate 16.5 days

Sadly, it's wrong. The table works to a basic assumption of 1.5 days per carbon atom. It was based on a response in the levator ani muscle of a rat in vitro.

These are the values a bit of research came up with for the various common esters:
Ace - between 28 and 36 hours
Prop - 2.5 days
PhenylProp - 3 days
Enan - 4.5 days
Cyp - 5 days or 8 days (there's some confusion here which I can ignore since I never use cyp)
Deca - 6 days
Undecylenate/Undecanoate - 7 days

Ya know, I've been using the same table I think for half-lives. According to DEPO-TESTOSTERONE (TESTOSTERONE CYPIONATE) INJECTION, SOLUTION [PHARMACIA AND UPJOHN COMPANY] the half-life of cypionate is indeed 8 days. I don't think that will change things too much as far as the OP is concerned, but now I'm going to have to do a TON more research digging around to see if I can get an accurate table again. I love the internet, but I hate how things can change so much. Thanks for the post!

 

[Knight9]

No problem bro. Thank you for your contributions!

My dilemma here is I want the highest levels while keeping it somewhat stable. Also...I wonder how much the graphs change for Test and NPP if you assume 4.5days and 3 days respectively??? Confused to say the least. Any suggestions?

 

[halfwit]

No problem bro. Thank you for your contributions!

My dilemma here is I want the highest levels while keeping it somewhat stable. Also...I wonder how much the graphs change for Test and NPP if you assume 4.5days and 3 days respectively??? Confused to say the least. Any suggestions?

I've got a pretty full plate today, but I'll redo the NPP graph as I still have that saved on my hard drive. You want ED/EOD/E3.5D for 700mg/wk?

 

[XELFLEC]

I've got a pretty full plate today, but I'll redo the NPP graph as I still have that saved on my hard drive. You want ED/EOD/E3.5D for 700mg/wk?

It could be 100mg a week it still going to scale the same on the table. Then it's just simple math from there for what ever dose someone wants to take.

 

[halfwit]

New graph with the NPP having a half-life of 3 days as requested:

ED: (Day 28) 482.890301mg
EOD: (Day 31) 540.04866mg / (Day 29) 539.95335mg
E7D: (Day 30) 873.0148mg
E3.5D: (Day 32.5) 630.4892mg / (Day 29) 630.24751mg

I included two ending dates for the EOD/E3.5D just to be fair to the other dosing schedules. It's a very small difference, but wanted to provide an option to see for yourselves.

Hope this helps.

Edit: Changed the graph as the old one had too many datalines in it from the previous version. Yeah, I'm anal like that.

 

[halfwit]

It could be 100mg a week it still going to scale the same on the table. Then it's just simple math from there for what ever dose someone wants to take.

The only problem with 100mg/wk is that the numbers get really tiny at that point, which I think would kind of deflate the values that someone would be looking for. I know that I would probably run NPP in the 600-700mg/wk range, so felt it would make it more practical example this way.

Example: 100mg with a h/l of 3 days would only have 0.022146mg remaining after 28 days with an ED dosing for instance. (14.2857mg ED)

 

[Knight9]

Im considering 400mg NPP E4D. When I want to up the dose, perhaps 400mg NPP E3D or 500mg E4D.

Test Enanthate at 600mg at first.
After 6-8 weeks I will probably up the dosage. At 800-1200mg tests, Id split it into twice weekly injects...

I dunno...Im scatter-brained. Right now Im considering pinning test once a week or once every 5 days and NPP every 3 or 4.


For test, Id love to see 600mg once a week vs 3x a week assuming a 4.5 day half life.

 

[halfwit]

Im considering 400mg NPP E4D. When I want to up the dose, perhaps 400mg NPP E3D or 500mg E4D.

Test Enanthate at 600mg at first.
After 6-8 weeks I will probably up the dosage. At 800-1200mg tests, Id split it into twice weekly injects...

I dunno...Im scatter-brained. Right now Im considering pinning test once a week or once every 5 days and NPP every 3 or 4.


For test, Id love to see 600mg once a week vs 3x a week assuming a 4.5 day half life.

I don't think you'll see a big difference between E3D and E4D at all with NPP, although there are the sides to contend with. All these charts do is really show how the half-life can be abused to provide a higher level over time versus a smoother distribution. I am very curious if going to a E7D dosing with test versus E3.5D as many do would provide bigger gains, but at what cost?

As a testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) patient, I do feel a difference between the two (obviously a smaller dose) as I tend to start to feel a crash at the end of the week. I have a feeling that this is because it is a small dose, so perhaps I dip down to levels that my body doesn't like at that time. I also see far less estrogenic sides at E3.5D versus E7D as there are less spikes. I think that's part of my problem with trying to understand how this works as I've had this pattern ingrained so heavily into my psyche due to being on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) 24/7 365 for the last half-decade.

I'm curious where this tradeoff of sides versus downright gains comes into play. I know that with my M-W-F schedule I'm on right now with test/tren I'm seeing hardly any sides at all (I do manage my E2 pretty aggressively with a DA), but would hesitate to move to a E7D even if it meant slightly better gains with the caveat of getting ALL those sides haha.

The NPP graph above is pretty close to your test chart that you'd like to see as the half life is only 1.5 days different and 100mg/wk off. E7D being far higher values of course.

 

[308power]

My nipples can definitely tell a difference already taking 600mgs of test at once. Going to figure out how to run my a.i. I believe I can taper it monday through friday. Like .5mg monday, .4 tuesday, then back to the .3 for the rest of the week. As long as it is close enough you just have to run with it. Would be really difficult too work out the bloodwork. I think I have been doing this long enough to do it by feel.

 

[halfwit]

My nipples can definitely tell a difference already taking 600mgs of test at once. Going to figure out how to run my a.i. I believe I can taper it monday through friday. Like .5mg monday, .4 tuesday, then back to the .3 for the rest of the week. As long as it is close enough you just have to run with it. Would be really difficult too work out the bloodwork. I think I have been doing this long enough to do it by feel.

That's why you're the man to do it for the team! I can kind of go by feel, but I've been WILDLY off before when guessing my E2 LOL. Thought I was crushing it so I let off - only to find I was in the 400 range! D'oh!

 

[308power]

Anabolic Threshold 2! - YouTube

 

[halfwit]

Anabolic Threshold 2! - YouTube

I want to see what this guy has to say that he met that's a biochemist. I have been under the impression that androgen receptor saturation is a myth as we are constantly retiring and creating new ones on a daily basis. Then again, I'm also about 12 semesters of chemistry shy of having a clue on how this stuff truly works myself haha.

Interesting theory nonetheless.

 

[Knight9]

In all this excitement...I have forgotten that the most important thing is free test, not peak levels. I believe free test is achieved by more frequent injections.

 

[308power]

Total test is free test + bound test. Generally, the higher total test is, the higher free test is. But, if we can get a higher total test, then lower shgb with something like Winstrol (winny) or proviron...

 

[XELFLEC]

So My next cycle will look like this.
10grams of test e all at once

That's about 12-14 weeks worth.

 

[halfwit]

So My next cycle will look like this.
10grams of test e all at once

That's about 12-14 weeks worth.

Awww yeh, you'd be a bad ass (with tits) for about 30 days!

Man, I can't imagine trying to inject 10g. 4 vials at once? NO PROBLEM.