While on cycle , how much protein per sitting ??

[Havasu]

So, basically the diet the OP described is Intermittent Fasting. Except the feasting window sounds small, since it's only one meal. Let's say a person needs 3500 calories to grow, I seriously doubt that person could eat all 3500 calories at one meal. Now, if you have someone with a poor metabolism and a normal amount of calories with many meals a day makes them fat, this might work for them. It's less calories, a lot of fasting, and this may work. They probably won't build a ton of muscle, but they may be able to get lean and maintain some lean muscle.

As far as not being able to process over 40g in of protein per meal is absolute crap. It's been disproven time and time again. If you eat a total amount of protein a day, and it's just more than your body was able to utilize in that day, yes some will be wasted, but it doesn't mean if that protein doesn't get used right after that meal that it's a waste, so I highly disagree. Add in gear, and your synthesis of EVERYTHING goes up, so now you can utilize even more protein, and the protein you already consume will be come more valuable.

 

[Enthusiast]

So, basically the diet the OP described is Intermittent Fasting. Except the feasting window sounds small, since it's only one meal. Let's say a person needs 3500 calories to grow, I seriously doubt that person could eat all 3500 calories at one meal. Now, if you have someone with a poor metabolism and a normal amount of calories with many meals a day makes them fat, this might work for them. It's less calories, a lot of fasting, and this may work. They probably won't build a ton of muscle, but they may be able to get lean and maintain some lean muscle.

As far as not being able to process over 40g in of protein per meal is absolute crap. It's been disproven time and time again. If you eat a total amount of protein a day, and it's just more than your body was able to utilize in that day, yes some will be wasted, but it doesn't mean if that protein doesn't get used right after that meal that it's a waste, so I highly disagree. Add in gear, and your synthesis of EVERYTHING goes up, so now you can utilize even more protein, and the protein you already consume will be come more valuable.

Sounds extremely logical to me, and logic is my favorite!

 

[Billegitimate]

Well, here goes. Never posted pics here...as far as I can recall.

The first picture is a before and after of me. The fat one is while on vacation in 2007. This was shortly before I got tired of being a slug and decided to get in shape. I had never been an "athlete" by any definition. I lifted weights briefly in high school and got swole. Every time I tried after that, i lost interest and over time I just ended up a big fat slob. I was 40 when I said enough was enough, and after pursuing my own approach to getting in shape, I ended up at a local CrossFit gym way back when it was all really starting in early 2008. The after picture is close to a year and a half of 6-7 meals a day.

And those meals were a pain. Weighed and measured, each meal shooting for 30-40 grams of protein, carrying coolers around with me to carry all my food. I was one high maintenance bitch during that time. And I preached to all my friends about eating 6-7 meals a day. I repeated what I was told, regardless of how much I actually read and studied. For me, 6-7 meals a day and the cooler and all that was bullshit, and the definition of neurosis. I was trim, healthy, high performing at CrossFit, and I was living life! I went places, did things, a LOT and the food thing was always a pain.View attachment 559412

I'll see if this pic comes through, and then will discuss 2009-present

 

[Dreaded Pirate Roberts]

I know My body couldn't take more than 75 gram shakes. When I tried to go to 100 gram shakes My kidneys shut down and it was painful.

 

[Enthusiast]

I know My body couldn't take more than 75 gram shakes. When I tried to go to 100 gram shakes My kidneys shut down and it was painful.

Another point I hadn't even considered, I wonder what the relationship would be between protein intake vs kidney function and overall health?

Does anyone have any studies that are bodybuilding related on the subject?

 

[Billegitimate]

Alright, so I was lean, weighing about 185 pounds. That was cool, I was down from over 240. But what I really enjoyed at CrossFit was being strong. Walking in with a deadlift of 255 (yes, I'm serious) at a bodyweight of 240 and seeing that go to 365 at 185 was cool. But in 2009, I met Robb Wolf at what would have been his last CrossFit approved seminar and made some dietary changes. Gave up grains, and gave up the 3-4 times a year sinus infections I had been dealing with since I was 12. I used to be on antibiotics 4-5 times a year every year. I have taken antibiotics once since 2009 prophylactically after a tic bite to preempt lime disease. No ear infections, no sinus. Oh well.

A couple months after going "Paleo" I read about intermittent fasting and it made sense. So I tried it out. Felt great, performance improved, and the neurosis ended. I ate when I wanted to. If I was hungry at lunch, I ate. If not, and I was hungry at 3pm, I ate. If not, my only rule was to eat before I went to sleep. But my total food intake went up. My favorite meal was 2 pounds of ground beef and a pound of sweet potato. I can easily eat that much food. (I trained for eating large amounts for years, look at my before pic again!)

So over the near 18 months, I put on muscle and leaned out a bit more. Strength all went up. Remember I'm doing nothing but Crossfit. At 190 pounds I could clean and jerk 245. Deadlift 425X3. Bench 1rm was 275-285. Impressive numbers? Nope, but for someone who has never been strong, fast, athletic to be strong, kinda fast, and moderately athletic, I was thrilled. Sorry for the blurry pic. Thas was around 190 pounds in 2011:

View attachment 559413

 

[Enthusiast]

Alright, so I was lean, weighing about 185 pounds. That was cool, I was down from over 240. But what I really enjoyed at CrossFit was being strong. Walking in with a deadlift of 255 (yes, I'm serious) at a bodyweight of 240 and seeing that go to 365 at 185 was cool. But in 2009, I met Robb Wolf at what would have been his last CrossFit approved seminar and made some dietary changes. Gave up grains, and gave up the 3-4 times a year sinus infections I had been dealing with since I was 12. I used to be on antibiotics 4-5 times a year every year. I have taken antibiotics once since 2009 prophylactically after a tic bite to preempt lime disease. No ear infections, no sinus. Oh well.

A couple months after going "Paleo" I read about intermittent fasting and it made sense. So I tried it out. Felt great, performance improved, and the neurosis ended. I ate when I wanted to. If I was hungry at lunch, I ate. If not, and I was hungry at 3pm, I ate. If not, my only rule was to eat before I went to sleep. But my total food intake went up. My favorite meal was 2 pounds of ground beef and a pound of sweet potato. I can easily eat that much food. (I trained for eating large amounts for years, look at my before pic again!)

So over the near 18 months, I put on muscle and leaned out a bit more. Strength all went up. Remember I'm doing nothing but Crossfit. At 190 pounds I could clean and jerk 245. Deadlift 425X3. Bench 1rm was 275-285. Impressive numbers? Nope, but for someone who has never been strong, fast, athletic to be strong, kinda fast, and moderately athletic, I was thrilled. Sorry for the blurry pic. Thas was around 190 pounds in 2011:

View attachment 559413

Very impressive how much you've changed, great job finding what you enjoyed doing and sticking with it.

Quite a testament to how different methodologies work for different people. Thanks for taking the time to explain how it worked for you.

 

[Billegitimate]

Which brings us to now. Been on TRT for a year, and just now getting things close to what I'd call dialed in. Been eating the same way since 2009, and still doing CrossFit and still setting PRs. I know CrossFit numbers don't mean a lot to people here, but things like 30 135 lbs clean and jerks for time took me over 7 minutes even when I was starting to look better in 2009. That's now a sub 2 minute workout.

But I've made a real push since starting TRT to get some strength goals. Benching over 315 now, dunno squat and deadlift numbers but the last time I did reps on either it was 445 and 375 respectively. But I can also run a mile in 6 something (first time I tried to run a 400m in 2008 I had to stop and walk...always sucked at running and had never run a mile without stopping EVER until I did so at CrossFit in 2008.)

My point is, my goal isn't size or appearance, they're just byproducts of what I enjoy doing in the gym. And when i say I can keep up with the youngsters, I mean that there are CrossFit workouts in which I can hang with them. Point in fact, in a recent gym-wide rowing competition we had, I came in 3rd. I can pull a 500m on the concept II rower in under 1:26, if anyone knows what that means.

So currently sitting close to 210, and am intentionally consuming more calories to gain some more mass. I'll lean out again in another month or so. I've already hit the numbers I want and now want to get back my power to weight ratio by getting down to 197-199.

So, am I sitting at 18% as was said, and are the two guys that beat me in that challenge the only young guys?

View attachment 559414

 

[Onk]

I'm sorry but did you even discuss protein intake whilst on cycle at all during that post? I re-read it and it all seems to be about crossfit.

Remember the first rule of cross fit is to tell everybody about cross fit.

 

[Billegitimate]

I'm sorry but did you even discuss protein intake whilst on cycle at all during that post? I re-read it and it all seems to be about crossfit.

Remember the first rule of cross fit is to tell everybody about cross fit.

Oh, perhaps you missed where I said my point of talking about what I was doing was to point out I was not focusing on getting big. It was about performance. Yeah, I specifically said that was why I was talking about it.

And did you see where my favorite meal consisted of two pounds of meat and a pound of sweet potato? You can take a stab at the protein in that meal even though the numbers aren't printed on a label for you.

My whole reason for posting was the request for pics, and the guys who said it was the worst diet ever and they didn't even want to see what I looked like. Shoulda moved it to a separate thread, but hindsight is 20/20. Well, mine is anyway.

 

[Enthusiast]

Oh, perhaps you missed where I said my point of talking about what I was doing was to point out I was not focusing on getting big. It was about performance. Yeah, I specifically said that was why I was talking about it.

And did you see where my favorite meal consisted of two pounds of meat and a pound of sweet potato? You can take a stab at the protein in that meal even though the numbers aren't printed on a label for you.

My whole reason for posting was the request for pics, and the guys who said it was the worst diet ever and they didn't even want to see what I looked like. Shoulda moved it to a separate thread, but hindsight is 20/20. Well, mine is anyway.

I was very skeptical at first about eating once a day but I thank you for the detail and thought you out into your post thereby demonstrating why what you do is effective, it was very enlightening.

 

[Southernfish]

Wow, lol. This makes my head hurt.
Eat big on or off cycle 40-60g per meal every 3-4 hrs and make sure your getting enough Leucine in each meal to trigger protein synthesis (3-9g dependin ok BW).
But, its more about total daily intake and the amoubt is based on an individuals BW, once this number is figured out, divide it amongst meals spread evenly apart.

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

Ok lets break this topic down:

Protein intake per meal

There is NO fixed recommendation for protein intake per meal provided your overall protein intake for the day is sufficient - if it isnt then you will need to follow the 20-30g over 5/6 meals protocol.

From a logical perspective, your body has evolved with the main goal of helping you survive - so why the fuck would it just shit out a bunch of protein?
The digestive system is extremely well regulated & will take as long as it wants to digest meals - larger meals requiring more time. It will NOT just waste protein.

I suspect the "20-40g every 3hrs" crap came from a bunch of acute studies that showed that this was the ideal amount of protein to maximise protein synthesis.
Here's the problem:
- those studies used whey protein as the only source, and that just so happens to take 3hrs to digest. A proper meal would take much longer.
- these were ACUTE studies, short term that have never been replicated long term in a scientific setting or in real life.

There is strong evidence that any extra benefit you gain for the 20-30g every 2-3hrs theory for protein synthesis, the body adapts & REDUCES protein synthesis while INCREASING protein oxidation over the long term.
So it all ends up the same.

All of your protein in 1 meal, spread out in 10 meals - it doesnt make any difference in the long term ESPECIALLY on cycle where protein synthesis is increased anyway provided your overall protein intake is good.


Meal frequency

In terms of meal frequency to keep the body in an anabolic state I personally recommend eating every 5-6 hours based on the research.
This differs for shakes since whey is digested in 3hrs while casein takes 8hrs, but for meals with all the macros every 5/6hrs is optimal.

And yes - this means IF, if your following the 1 meal per day version, is NOT optimal. A 16 hr fast with 2 meala spread over the 8hr eating window however would be fine.


Kidney function & protein

First of all lets be clear that the research shows individuals with preexisting kidney problems needed to reduce their protein intake, NOT high protein causes kidney problems - the media twisted this the wrong way round.

Is there a theoretical limit to how high you can take protein before it causes problems?
Yes but it varies from person to person & in the short term, for example contest prep, you can get away with higher intakes.
This problem occurs mostly with guys cycling rather than naturals because they know protein synthesis is elevated & want to see how much protein they can stuff down to make more gains.

Based on the research, I would set an upper limit of 1.5g/lb for protein but you can go past this in certain scenarios such as when dieting, etc.
Alot of guys cycling consume way more than this & need to remember that their could be implications as far as kidney function is concerned.
Its also irrelevant if you have "too much protein" in 1 meal - its your overall intake that will cause the damage, not the frequency.

 

[Billegitimate]

Thanks for a cogent and science based response. That was good.

 

[bonexyster]

Really? 5-6 days a week I eat one big meal. That's it for the day. Having gone from a scrawny yet fat 40 year old to a pretty stout and moderately lean 47 year old that can hold his own against the young'ns in the gym, I have to disagree.

I used to think the same thing. For about a year, I said the same thing as you, and I even ate 5-7 meals a day every day. I now look back at that time and think how silly it was. For several years now, I eat one meal a day, but that one meal typically has two pounds of meat, and 1-2 pounds of vegetables. If it's a workout day, that will include 1/2 to 1 pounds of potato or sweet potato.

So I'm getting 200g protein in one sitting, not eating again for 24 hours, and usually doing my workouts after 16-20 hours of fasting. I wonder how I keep adding muscle.

this is a proven method ive read a lot on it. guys using this technique on average have less body according to some studies ive read. during evolutionary times humans would eat this way as an average day of hunting. Modern humans have begin eating multiple times a day, its not unnatural to eat multiple times a day but its just as natural to eat once.

 

[darkwing86]

before we move on further here guys , the purpose of the thread was just to start a good debate . which I guess it has lol . personaly my diet im probably eating 3500-4000 calories a day . I probably already eat 5-6 meals a day all spaced apart basicly revolving around a high protein source and then carb and try to fill in the blanks with vegetables , vitamins , minerals and shakes . hope no one got the idea of hinting on eating all 300+ grams of protein in one sitting . it was just to raise a debate to see everyones opinions on how they thought that may work . but for me each sitting is probably 40-50 whether or not im absorbing it all im not going o stress over lol but I always keep intake high to make sure im doing the best I can and not missing any "opportunites" haha but still good to hear what everyone does and obviously everyone is very passionate ! haha

 

[Charles Bronson]

"warrior diet" eating one meal day, with fasting between

not optimal, by any means

yes people used to eat once a day, twice a day

but people used to starve every winter too. people used to think plague was caused by witches and evil spirits.

i won't even get started about cross fit..

unless you are chasing your dinner down with a pointy stick, eating once a day is just another fad diet

bottom line is if someone wants to cut/grow, do your homework the information is out there for learning about proper dietary habits

or do what i did, hire 3j's for a run and learn how to eat properly to meet your goals

 

[China_Wall]

once again... people trying to re-invent the wheel... it's already round people

I'm pretty sure I say this once or twice per year and it's usually diet or training related

if you want to look like a bodybuilder, eat like a bodybuilder... this fasting BS is NOT used by people doing this fitness/bodybuilding thing for a living so why do people think it's gonna be more effective???

got news for the believers... it WON'T work

 

[Southernfish]

once again... people trying to re-invent the wheel... it's already round people

I'm pretty sure I say this once or twice per year and it's usually diet or training related

if you want to look like a bodybuilder, eat like a bodybuilder... this fasting BS is NOT used by people doing this fitness/bodybuilding thing for a living so why do people think it's gonna be more effective???

got news for the believers... it WON'T work

Well said China bro. Thats all there is to it.

 

[bonexyster]

id like to clarify my stance on intermittent fasting. im not against it. i know some guys that do it and they have great size and are very lean. on average a person that eats less lives longer then a person that consumes more food. it has its pros and if you have a busy life i can see where you would benifit from it. do i think its optimal for bb no of course not or some of pros would be doing it and none of them are. in fact jay cutler would wake up every twice a night to eat a meal and go back to sleep. i personally couldnt do it because i like food and i say fuck fasting i dont do hungry. do i think some active guys could benifit from this style sure, to each thier own.