3rd cycle - Test c & EQ

[THE-DET-OAK]

2 weeks after last Test pin is pretty simple to understand IMO. I guess I need more insight on how it makes it a lot easier....

ummmm 2 weeks after last pin of test e is not a good time to start post cycle therapy (pct) at all-but i guess if all you do is read what others say and regurgitate it then you would have no idea why that would be.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

lets do this since no one wants to do their own research and simply do whatever anyone else tells them to do just because it worked, even though it could have worked half-ass and you dont even realize it.

Please explain to me EXACTLY why 2 weeks is a good time to start SERM after a test e cycle????

 

[MotorIHead]

ummmm 2 weeks after last pin of test e is not a good time to start post cycle therapy (pct) at all-but i guess if all you do is read what others say and regurgitate it then you would have no idea why that would be.

Well if that's the case why didn't u correct the person that said it in the 1st place ? IMO with Test C or E that's a prefect time to start it & I've had no problems when I did it.

Instead of being a smart a$$ why not enlighten me so I can learn more ? I obviously asked u a question cause u know ur stuff, then u come back with this BS.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Please explain to me EXACTLY why 2 weeks is a good time to start SERM after a test e cycle????

Im not being a dick-just helping-but explain this.

 

[MotorIHead]

Im not being a dick-just helping-but explain this.

It sure sounds like ur being one. Assuming that all I do is "read what others say and regurgitate it" how is that being kind at all ? That's a great quote from RJH BTW. It's funny how I can ask u questions & u don't answer them, yet u want me to answer ur questions.......

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

I shouldnt have to spoon feed anyone..................also I think people should be careful with the advice they give..............I think people need to FULLY understand the "WHY" in this game............especially when they are giving advice on said topic.

 

[MotorIHead]

I shouldnt have to spoon feed anyone..................also I think people should be careful with the advice they give..............I think people need to FULLY understand the "WHY" in this game............especially when they are giving advice on said topic.

I agree with u 100%. All I did was ask a simple question, then u gave me a hard headed a$$hole response back. I don't see what the need for that was ? Isn't that why were all here, to ask questions, get them answered and learn ?

I've seen a bunch of ur responses on here, u help people out and I agree with a lot of what u say to people. U just have something against me or something ? U don't feel I'm worthy enough to get a correct answer or opinion from u ?

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

No that is not the case at all........I never pretend to be above anyone.......not here or in the real world.........because im not.

Im not even saying the "why" has to be correct. Ive been wrong with it many times and I have also changed my "WHY" many times. Rest assured though when i have answer/comment on a question/response I do have a "WHY" thats for sure.

I was irritated with the following response. The directions are simple to understand, the "WHY" is far from from easy though.

From the following response you are implying that my response of prop being easier to time for was irresponsible or down right silly.

2 weeks after last Test pin is pretty simple to understand IMO....

 

[MotorIHead]

No that is not the case at all........I never pretend to be above anyone.......not here or in the real world.........because im not.

Im not even saying the "why" has to be correct. Ive been wrong with it many times and I have also changed my "WHY" many times. Rest assured though when i have answer/comment on a question/response I do have a "WHY" thats for sure.

I was irritated with the following response. The directions are simple to understand, the "WHY" is far from from easy though.

From the following response you are implying that my response of prop being easier to time for was irresponsible or down right silly.

OK I understand. I asked why is it easier to time with Prop, that's all. Me saying that 2 weeks after last pin is easy to understand was NOT implying "prop being easier to time for was irresponsible or down right silly." If it sounds that way, then I apologize.

Now that we have that sorted out, can u tell me how/why post cycle therapy (pct) is easier to time with Prop rather than Test C ?

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Well there is some debate on what T levels actually get to on a 12 week cycle of test e. (this is why i said the "WHY" does not have to be correct) If you look at the studies (for instance the sticky in this section 600mg vs 300mg test) of what T levels get to on a cycle of test E most will come in around 23-2800. Here is where the debate lies. since the blood sample was taken 7 days after the last T injection (according to the half-life) we should be able to assume that levels were double that the day after the last T injection.

So if levels were 5,000 then it would take roughly 4 weeks for them to get into the 300's (this is when i believe you can stimulate the testes naturally) before this time they are still suppressed.

since we had to use a half-life of 7 days for test e we can assume our +/- margin for error is 7 days.

using the same calculation or any calculation that takes the half-life into account means that our margin for error will go down with shorter half-lifes.

 

[MotorIHead]

That all makes sense for the most part. I agree about the debate, their is also debate about the half-life's and active half-life's. I see what ur saying about the +/- margin of error being decreased, but I don't see how Prop makes it easier to figure out over Test C. That was what we were originally talking about.

All that said their isn't really a true 100% correct way to tell someone when to start their post cycle therapy (pct) in reality. The only solution I could think of is blood work with the same day results, which isn't possible.

1 other thing, when would u suggest him to start his post cycle therapy (pct) based on Test C ?

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

+/- margin of error being decreased, but I don't see how Prop makes it easier to figure out over Test C. That was what we were originally talking about.

I know thats what we were talking about. If the margin for error is decreased, therefore it WILL be easier to calculate timing with prop because it is a shorter ester than cyp. you will be off on your timing much less with prop than cyp (in most cases) because your margin for error (window) is much smaller. I do not know how else to explain it so that it makes sense without an example.

My suggestion is to use prop after cyp and not worry about timing for cyp.

I would suggest starting SERM 10-12 days after prop.

I want to be clear that although there is debate about timing its not much. Blood tests are a resonable request through the entire PCT process, money aside.

 

[MotorIHead]

I know thats what we were talking about. If the margin for error is decreased, therefore it WILL be easier to calculate timing with prop because it is a shorter ester than cyp. you will be off on your timing much less with prop than cyp (in most cases) because your margin for error (window) is much smaller. I do not know how else to explain it so that it makes sense without an example.

My suggestion is to use prop after cyp and not worry about timing for cyp.

I would suggest starting SERM 10-12 days after prop.

I want to be clear that although there is debate about timing its not much. Blood tests are a resonable request through the entire PCT process, money aside.

True, I understand about the margin of error being less. But it doesn't make sense on how it would be easier ? IDK maybe I'm just not getting it ?

I understand what ur suggesting, just wanted ur opinion on when he should start PCT ending the cycle with Test C.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

With cyp u can easily be off your timing by weeks. With prop you could be off by days. I would much rather be off by days.

It will most likely take 4 weeks after a 12 week cyp cycle to get your T levels down to where your pituitary will signal the testes to produce T so that answer's your question.

My point is who wants to wait 4 weeks for PCT? Not I.

So not only is the timing easier for prop but it is more efficient. And reasonable I would never end a cycle on long ester again. Its silly.

If your running enough Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) to bring the boys up to production capacity like your suppose to it is better to over estimate SERM timing.

 

[Repo]

Hey Oak this is what I dig about your posts - the reason why behind the answer.

How would you recommend the conversion from cyp to prop at the end and the cycle?

If it was a 16 week cycle would it be best to do 12 weeks of cyp then convert over to prop for the last 4 weeks ... Or would there be an overlap of the cyp and prop during the conversion?

While doing research on PCT this brings on more to consider with my cycles being planned with cyp so far...

Thanks for sharing te wisdom!

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

If it was a 16 week cycle would it be best to do 12 weeks of cyp then convert over to prop for the last 4 weeks ... Or would there be an overlap of the cyp and prop during the conversion?!

yes it will overlap. Still though the cyp ester will be clearing while your loading up on the prop.

i would do it just like you said. run prop for 4 weeks giving the long ester time to clear.

so if i ran 12 weeks cyp i would begin my prop on week 13.

 

[Repo]

yes it will overlap. Still though the cyp ester will be clearing while your loading up on the prop.

i would do it just like you said. run prop for 4 weeks giving the long ester time to clear.

so if i ran 12 weeks cyp i would begin my prop on week 13.

Awesome - this is perfect timing - I'm just about to place an order ... "thank you!"

 

[Ballas]

Thanx for the interesting debate THE-DET-OAK. Plus that was very informative.

Here's something i use to use for working out post cycle therapy (pct), what u think.

You will have to wait to commence this post cycle therapy (pct) protocol until the t-half life of your longest acting cycle component used in the last week of your cycle is reached. For instance, say you used Anavar and Testosterone Enanthate. Anavar is cleared within days, but the Enanthate will stay for 8 to 10 days. At 14 days only half the original dosage will be in your system. For the drug to totally clear your system of all its active metabolites, a period of 7 times that of the t-half life has to expire. Any Enanthate thus will take 56-70 days to totally clear your system. Pharmacodynamically, the drug's plasma levels will drop below the therapeutic (active working) level, once the t-half has been reached.

I think at this stage we should engage in a bit of academic stuff:
Drugs accumulate and eliminate in your body, following a constant logarythmic curve - mostly log-2 with a value of 0,7 constant. What this means, as far as elimination of the drug is concerned, that 50% of the drug will still be left in your system when the drug's t-half life has been reached, 75% of the drug will be excreted once 2 x t-half life has been reached, 90% of the drug will be excreted once 4 x t-half life has been reached and 100% of the drug will be excreted once 7 x t-half life has been reached. I'm quite comfortable to commence the first week of post cycle therapy (pct) when the longest acting injected drug's elimination curve has reached a value of 3 x t-half life. By the time of the 8’Th day of your post cycle therapy (pct) cycle, very close to less than 10-15% of the initial drug dosage will be left circulating. At these circulating levels, the drug should not suppress the post cycle therapy (pct)'s effort to stimulate the HPT-axis' repair.

Back to the Enanthate example. If the longest acting ester was an Enanthate used, I will commence day one of the post cycle therapy (pct) protocol about 24 days from my last Enanthate injection date (3 x t-half life of 8-10 days for the Enanthate). Hope this academic stuff makes some sense to you...

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

It sure does. and thats a perfect time to start post cycle therapy (pct) after an enanthate ester. Your point also proves to me why it is terrible to come off cycle on a long ester so we agree about that. If we use your calculations for post cycle therapy (pct) timing then 9 days after prop we would start post cycle therapy (pct). This means the prop also has to be ran for at least 2 weeks to give the long ester time to clear.

This is a great way to get a good guess of when levels of the drug will be low enough to start our SERM. One thing we have to remember is its just a guess, the reason is because the half-life of a particular ester is just an estimation. There are many factors that play into how fast our body will metabolize an ester, all the way down to which muscle we do the injection in, how deep it was, our BF% etc etc

This is what i was trying to explain to motor head, we can guess much better with enanthate.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Here is the most important part of post cycle therapy (pct) (especially when using multiple compounds in a cycle).

Once the T has starts to decline in our system, it is the best time to use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). Using Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during the entire cycle and blasting during the T decline is the most efficient way but if you had to choos one i choose the blast. This is when Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will stimulate GNRH, when T levels are sky high Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will not do this.

The reason why post cycle therapy (pct) timing is so important is because we want to shorten the time our bodies run without testosterone. When are T is low we are catabolic and can lose some of our gains. If we run Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) properly during the T decline, meaning enough to stimulate maximum production from the testes, it is better to over estimate how long it will take the ester to clear. This is because we should have proper amounts of T in our blood through Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) stimulation. After all if we can not get the boys to produce T at their maximum capability, SERM treatment would be kind of pointless. If they do not get up and running at full capacity more Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is needed. HMG is better BTW, so ive read.