another example of not understand the science or diet

[5x10]

im not trying to be an ass here, but im skeptical about keepable gains and im just trying to look at it logically

heres a few reason why i dont think there is such a thing as keepable gains

first, i want to make sure we know the effects of steroids which enable us to grow while on cycle
-increased nitrogen retention
-increase in rbc's(increased endurance)
-increase in water retention(cellular leverage)
-increased creatine
-increased recovery
and im sure im missing alot of other factors here
this is all done by manipulating our hormone levels and in response, we get bigger and stronger
correct me if im wrong, but im pretty sure ive read some articles that showed people that took roids and didnt work out actually gained lbm
anyways, my point was, steroids will make you bigger and stronger

second, the bodys response to increased weights
its known that lifting heavier weights will cause an increase in bigger, stronger muscle fibers, which will increase the size of your muscle. but we all have that genetic hormonal govenor which limits our growth. steroids breaks that hormonal barrier and allows us to grow our muscles by the factors listed above. of all the people i have been around that has done a cycle, i have yet to see one keep the strength gains obtained on a cycle of steroids. all my personal bests are when i was on cycle and i havent been able to replicate it off cycle. its simply because i cannot genetically get my muscles that big without the help of additional testosterone. so how can you expect to keep your gains, when you cannot provide the weights needed for your body to keep that large of a muscle? the body will always adjust to its how its worked

third, the law of averages
the real problem with keepable gains is this, people cycle too often to truely see what is being kept. keepable gains are often looked at at the end of pct, when in reality, the user has just gotten back to normal levels . why not look at keepable gains 10-12 weeks after you get back to normal? or better yet, 1 yr after your last cycle.
lets look at 2 scenerios and assume all other variable(like diet, training, rest, etc) are constant
scenerio a: guy cycles 2 times a year(2, 10 week cycles of test 400)
scenerio b: guy cycles once every 5 years(1, 10 week cycle of test 400)

we look at these guys at day one, and at the end of the 5th year
im pretty confident that guy a would come out looking like he made some real gains over that time period, in comparison to guy b
but if you look at the #s, it all makes sense
guy a avg'ed a significantly higher amount of test in his system against guy b, over 5 years
in other words, keepable gains = more cycles
lets look at guy b, how much do you think he would have kept after a cycle 5 years ago? not much, as the law of averages would dictate his hormonal level to be much closer to normal levels. He wont appear to have kept any gains, and again, this is for an advanced lifter who has his variables all lined up.

im posting this so people dont hope depend on the drug for keepable gains. i view cycles of steroids as brief periods of fun. ive lifted for 17 yrs and will lift till the day i die. cycles allow me to supercharge my workouts not to mention the best sex ever. but its still a drug that should be used in moderation. its easy to get hooked, to look at the next cycle, to fear coming off. i can say it easily the most addictive drug ive ever tried.

i think the real weapon is diet. like the hormones, your body will respond to foods, and if you keep that diet up, your muscles will respond, all while keeping your hormones levels constant.
but just like the drugs, when you take the muscle building diet away, your body will respond with less strength and size

 

[ChrisWho?]

I can see that it makes sense if you use to break your genetic platue, but if your not past that point, most gains are keepable if you stay dedicated(after post cycle therapy (pct) with diet, lifts, etc.) In the past when I cycled(test only maybe once a year) and was not at a genetic platue at the time of starting i've kept the majority of my gains minus the water wiegth and drop through post cycle therapy (pct) and after. But I was well above where I was at before the cycle long after post cycle therapy (pct) was done. I know you preach this alot here and on other boards but I believe it to be dependent on the individual. To me it would be pretty lame to cycle to only get big for 10-16 weekd. It's already hard mentally coming off, so why do it for short term? Thats just my opinion honestly.

 

[Toolshed23]

Agreed if you are past your genetic peak you will drop down to genetic peak. Once the muscle is built if u continue to work it at a similar level you will keep majority of gains.

 

[UserAt204]

How do you know what your genetic peak is to be able to say if you have passed it or not? I have found with longer cycles, I am able to maintain gains easier. I don't put on a bunch of weight in short burst. I think you can go beyond what you could have naturally. You will obviously never look how you will on cycle but it's not impossible to add a couple pounds a year. Most people will not stay dedicated year after year to maintain the size.

I understand your concept but in my opinion all the listed benefits are used to make the gains in a shorter time span but once they are there you don't have to have all the increased levels to maintain. After my first cycle, I gained 20 or so pounds and had no problem holding it with a normal training routine. I then had an injury and didn't train at all and lost it. If not training and eating right, you will lose gains made with or without AAS. I'm not saying you can keep cycling and continue to grow but genetics has a large part in it.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

I would like to post more at this time, but I feel i need to think about this more. Its gonna be hard for me to use experience because of the, how long you keep your gains before going on cycle again curve ball. I will be back to add any input I can. good discussion though 5x10, I think I will learn alot form it.

 

[3J]

there isn't anything to think about...


your diet will play the largest factor in gain... and yes.. "keepable gains" post cycle....

if your nutrition is set progressively to build muscle then your body will do so with proper exercise.. it will continue to do so untill it reaches a genetic plateau... steroids make it possible for you to break through that plateau... even when your past your genetic potential.. because you've got the muscle on... thats the easy part.. now its makes sure it doesn't come off... eating the right amount in context to your lbm will allow anti-catabolic results that will make you heavier than what your genetic limitations call for...

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

my problem is ive never come off long enough to find out........hahaha.......advantage of testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) i guess. good post though 3J

 

[MattD]

I agree. I've been lifting for 10yrs. Six months after my cycle I've lost all my gains. I'm ectomorphic, so I can't really speak for other body types but it's an absolute bitch to keep gains after a 12+ week cycle as an ecto.

 

[3J]

its all diet guys.. i cant stress that enough...

iv had plenty of clients who have been bulking under my supervision and kept 70-80% of their gains...

 

[00298244]

How do you know what your genetic peak is to be able to say if you have passed it or not? I have found with longer cycles, I am able to maintain gains easier. I don't put on a bunch of weight in short burst. I think you can go beyond what you could have naturally. You will obviously never look how you will on cycle but it's not impossible to add a couple pounds a year. Most people will not stay dedicated year after year to maintain the size.

I understand your concept but in my opinion all the listed benefits are used to make the gains in a shorter time span but once they are there you don't have to have all the increased levels to maintain. After my first cycle, I gained 20 or so pounds and had no problem holding it with a normal training routine. I then had an injury and didn't train at all and lost it. If not training and eating right, you will lose gains made with or without AAS. I'm not saying you can keep cycling and continue to grow but genetics has a large part in it.

Not impossible to add 2 pounds a year naturally? Try getting that while on steroids. 2 lean pounds of muscle per year, unless you have some better genes than the majority of population. I've been stuck at my weight of 200-225 for the past 6 years. That's my limit.

I've also gone off for 45 days without gear or workout, lost 25lbs, then went back on gear and workout and gained 25lbs back in 45days.

 

[00298244]

my problem is ive never come off long enough to find out........hahaha.......advantage of testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) i guess. good post though 3J

Same here. I've gone off for 45days in the last 6 years.

 

[Dreaded Pirate Roberts]

ARE YOU 10 YEARS OLD. I'm ready to ban you for stupidity. you can pull out all the junk science you want and theorize all you want. I can personally testify that I put on 45 pounds of very lean muscle on a long cycle and kept 40 of those 45 pounds for the next 5 years off cycle. People who lost most of there gains lost water and didn't know how to use post cycle therapy (pct) properly. No only did I keep it I maintained the mass even after I stopped training professionally. In that 5 year period I might have worked out 20 times. Debating experience and science is one thing. This thread is mostly a waste. Maybe you need to study about how to keep your body from shutting down HTPA while on cycle. It's not rocket science.

3J is right about Diet. You have to know how to eat to grow while on cycle if you want to really grow. You have to eat enough to maintain the muscle mass. Using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) on cycle helps cep the water of so you don't do the up and down.

 

[5x10]

ARE YOU 10 YEARS OLD. I'm ready to ban you for stupidity. you can pull out all the junk science you want and theorize all you want. I can personally testify that I put on 45 pounds of very lean muscle on a long cycle and kept 40 of those 45 pounds for the next 5 years off cycle. People who lost most of there gains lost water and didn't know how to use PCT properly. No only did I keep it I maintained the mass even after I stopped training professionally. In that 5 year period I might have worked out 20 times. Debating experience and science is one thing. This thread is mostly a waste. Maybe you need to study about how to keep your body from shutting down HTPA while on cycle. It's not rocket science.

3J is right about Diet. You have to know how to eat to grow while on cycle if you want to really grow. You have to eat enough to maintain the muscle mass. Using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) on cycle helps cep the water of so you don't do the up and down.

bold = law of averages

either that you didnt didnt know how to eat pre cycle

like you, im referencing my experiences and the experiences of guys i know

im not sure why you cant let a guy debate his opinion with others without calling me a 10 yr old

and igf and hgh change the game, so please dont lets your results be skewed as im only speaking of aas

and e3j, did you also start helping them with their nutrition under your supervision? i would be willing to bet yes

 

[3J]

bold = law of averages

either that you didnt didnt know how to eat pre cycle

like you, im referencing my experiences and the experiences of guys i know

im not sure why you cant let a guy debate his opinion with others without calling me a 10 yr old

and igf and hgh change the game, so please dont lets your results be skewed as im only speaking of aas

and e3j, did you also start helping them with their nutrition under your supervision? i would be willing to bet yes

yes i helped them under my supervision.. thats what i do for a living..

but for you to say that one cant keep their gains from gear is unjustified... if you eat right.. post cycle therapy (pct) right.. youll keep the gains.. simple as that

 

[5x10]

yes i helped them under my supervision.. thats what i do for a living..

but for you to say that one cant keep their gains from gear is unjustified... if you eat right.. post cycle therapy (pct) right.. youll keep the gains.. simple as that

dont you see how your experience is skewed as not only did they take hormones, but they also changed their diet
and started eating correctly

in my opinion above, i specifically reference guys that know how to train and know how to eat prior to jucing

post cycle therapy (pct) gets you back to the hormonal limits, not the levels that the cycle provided.
so if you didnt achieve that muscle mass pre cycle within your hormonal limits, why would you expect to keep it from temporarily altering your hormones?

 

[Greens]

yes i helped them under my supervision.. thats what i do for a living..

but for you to say that one cant keep their gains from gear is unjustified... if you eat right.. post cycle therapy (pct) right.. youll keep the gains.. simple as that

My experience is proof of this.

Last fall I took my first cycle, I went from 242lbs and 30+%bf to 220lbs and 15%bf in 4months. 6 months later I'm 218 and now 16%bf.

Of course my strength isn't what it was 10 weeks into my cycle, but I would never expect it to be. The reality is that I kept over 20lbs of muscle and my strength is twice what it was. Those are very real gains that I'm very happy about.

 

[00298244]

ARE YOU 10 YEARS OLD. I'm ready to ban you for stupidity. you can pull out all the junk science you want and theorize all you want. I can personally testify that I put on 45 pounds of very lean muscle on a long cycle and kept 40 of those 45 pounds for the next 5 years off cycle. People who lost most of there gains lost water and didn't know how to use post cycle therapy (pct) properly. No only did I keep it I maintained the mass even after I stopped training professionally. In that 5 year period I might have worked out 20 times. Debating experience and science is one thing. This thread is mostly a waste. Maybe you need to study about how to keep your body from shutting down HTPA while on cycle. It's not rocket science.

3J is right about Diet. You have to know how to eat to grow while on cycle if you want to really grow. You have to eat enough to maintain the muscle mass. Using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) on cycle helps cep the water of so you don't do the up and down.

This may be true for you but it doesn't mean that it will be true for everyone else, even if they follow the same protocol.

Just like some people can grow without steroids, because of their genes, and some can't because of theirs. I always point fingers at a Bosnian Family, every one of the guys in the family is super strong naturally and gains muscle naturally with no effort.

This guy is 5'8" and 250lbs, (has a gut), drives a semi-truck. Comes in once a year to the gym, puts on 315lbs on a flat bench, and does 12rep sets with no problems.

This guy gains without steroids, imagine if he was using them how much bigger he'd get.

 

[Dreaded Pirate Roberts]

You don't need excellerated hormone levels to keep gains. You need normal levels and the proper amount of food to avoid being catabolic. So here is the first best trick to not loosing your gains. consume a Whey protein shake within 15 minutes of the time you workout or you have just cannibalized your muscles for Glycogen.

I have no problems with debate. When you post a thread with a Bullshit conclusion that you arrived at threw you misunderstanding and laziness That bugs me.

Discipline in diet is more important then what you take.

 

[Dreaded Pirate Roberts]

Guys I worked with allpro-athletes and I've been at this for more than half of most of your lives. I'm telling you the hard gainers are hard gainers because they don't understand how to eat to grow. Eating is harder that training. That's the hidden secrete that know one will tell you. Planing to eat every 2.5 hrs a day isn't easy. Try eating 400 grams of protein every day.

 

[5x10]

My experience is proof of this.

Last fall I took my first cycle, I went from 242lbs and 30+%bf to 220lbs and 15%bf in 4months. 6 months later I'm 218 and now 16%bf.

Of course my strength isn't what it was 10 weeks into my cycle, but I would never expect it to be. The reality is that I kept over 20lbs of muscle and my strength is twice what it was. Those are very real gains that I'm very happy about.

your telling me you achieved those reuslts with hormones alone? meaning no change in diet

You don't need excellerated hormone levels to keep gains. You need normal levels and the proper amount of food to avoid being catabolic. So here is the first best trick to not loosing your gains. consume a Whey protein shake within 15 minutes of the time you workout or you have just cannibalized your muscles for Glycogen.

I have no problems with debate. When you post a thread with a Bullshit conclusion that you arrived at threw you misunderstanding and laziness That bugs me.

Discipline in diet is more important then what you take[b/].

my point exactly, take the guy i quoted right above you