baseline question to help build a complete Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) program

[sarnold285]

baseline question to help build a complete hrt program

I was recently diagnosed with low T my total tes level was 277. Im 28 years old so in my opinion rediculously low. My doctor being really conservative gave me a trial or tes to raise it to 350. Now the reason i wanted my tes level checked was my energy level was tanked. I work 10 to 12 hour days 5 to 7 days a week I have a daughter and try to have a regular workout routine. But with my energy levels the way they were i just didnt have the drive to do it all plus despite my diet changes and working out was putting on more and more fat and gaining no strength or muscle mass. So after gathering some info primarily from this site and other health sites i requeested my doc help me to at least raise my tes levels to the range of 600 to 800. He agreed and gave me a scrip to take 100 to 125 mg of tes cyp a week. I have never been very big but was very lean up until about 25 (Im talking 6 percent bodyfat) before i started packing it on so i doubt my levels were every any higher then that if even that high. My question is i know free Tes is a more important factor to muscle gain/fat loss/energy level/etc. so do i need to take any kind of anti-aromatase pills at that dosage. Also will that level of supplementation of tes shut down my own production. If it would help to take antiaromatase supplements what is the best one to get without a scrip and how much per day. Oh and one more thing energy level is my main concern but obviously seeing results from my hard work ad lifestyle changes by my hormone levels not holding me back is my motivation so I know im not cycling so no post cycle is needed but does that mean i dont have to take anything to prevent loss of gains. Thanks in advance i know its alot to ask but i dont want ot start messing with my body without the proper knowledge.

 

[juced_porkchop]

FREE test has nothing to do with an Aromatase inhibitor (AI). Aromatase inhibitor (AI) is for estrogen issues. unless your estrogen is high or gettign high, you have no need for an AI.
also yes taking this test will shut down your own production. that is what Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) is "hormone replacement therapy "
personally i would have recommend a couple runs of a SERM before putting you on Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) for life.
HRT is not to help you recover, its to replace it.. you will in fact be MORE shut down from taking it BUT will end up with better levels over time of course. also supplement with DHA and pregnenolone daily. HRT/TRT only covers TEST, you should add precursors to this since they may be effected as well.

Good luck

 

[sarnold285]

FREE test has nothing to do with an Aromatase inhibitor (AI). Aromatase inhibitor (AI) is for estrogen issues. unless your estrogen is high or gettign high, you have no need for an AI.
also yes taking this test will shut down your own production. that is what Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) is "hormone replacement therapy "
personally i would have recommend a couple runs of a SERM before putting you on Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) for life.
HRT is not to help you recover, its to replace it.. you will in fact be MORE shut down from taking it BUT will end up with better levels over time of course. also supplement with DHA and pregnenolone daily. HRT/TRT only covers TEST, you should add precursors to this since they may be effected as well.

Good luck[/QUO

yeah i knew my own production might lessen but the way the doctor was talking is he didnt want ot raise levels too high cause that would shut it down insenuating that if doses were lower there was less of a risk. If it doesnt matter how low the dose it will shut it down why be conservative why wouldnt he want to raise my levels to optimum levels. and about the anti-aromatase i know aromatase binds with your free tes to make estrogen so even if i dont have a problem with estrogen levels by taking a anti aromatase wouldnt that logically leave more of my free T to do as it pleases with different bodily functions. What do i have to gain from DHA and prognenolone supplementation and how much to take a day? thanks for reply

 

[halfwit]

yeah i knew my own production might lessen but the way the doctor was talking is he didnt want ot raise levels too high cause that would shut it down insenuating that if doses were lower there was less of a risk. If it doesnt matter how low the dose it will shut it down why be conservative why wouldnt he want to raise my levels to optimum levels. and about the anti-aromatase i know aromatase binds with your free tes to make estrogen so even if i dont have a problem with estrogen levels by taking a anti aromatase wouldnt that logically leave more of my free T to do as it pleases with different bodily functions. What do i have to gain from DHA and prognenolone supplementation and how much to take a day? thanks for reply

Okay, I think you've done some reading but appear to be a little confused here. Most doctors are pretty conservative when it comes to TRT/HRT as they are prescribing a controlled substance that also has a very negative stigma. They want to make sure to treat the issue and ONLY the issue (low testosterone) as they can get in trouble if a patient consistently comes back with high values of serum testosterone. An aromatase inhibitor is typically needed when your body sees an "excess" of testosterone (I honestly do not know if it's free or total) and it starts to produce estradiol an an alarming rate to satisfy what your body thinks would be homeostasis.

I've always been under the impression that it's total testosterone that a doctor should be monitoring as SHBG effects the amount of free testosterone in your system, which can be completely different from one person to the next. You definitely want to make sure that he is monitoring your estradiol in blood tests as you move forward with your testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), not just serum values of testosterone - as estradiol (E2) is what gives us the nasty side effects that many attribute to testosterone supplementation. Whether or not you can reach what you feel is optimal, is completely independent of what a blood panel will give you a number for as many men find themselves happy with values ranging from 400 to 1100ng/dL total testosterone. It's all about how you FEEL that matters. Exogenous testosterone completely shuts down your natural production, so I'm not sure if that was just a miscommunication between you and your doc, or if he is clueless. I really hope it's the former, not the latter.

I personally supplement with 100mg of pregnenolone and 50mg of DHEA every day. They both are hormones that help to control many processes including metabolism and brain function. Some men prefer Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) as this too can help to ensure continued production of these hormones, but as some doctors are unwilling to write a script for off-label use of a "female drug" - OTC hormones may be a necessity. I cannot give you advice on where to procure an aromatase inhibitor outside of a script in this forum, but you can always check out the AAS section if you're so inclined.

My .02c

 

[Megatron28]

Good posts by both Pork Chop and Halfwit.

I just want to reinforce that injecting testosterone will shut down what is remaining of your natural production. That's a big deal if your normal production is at healthy levels. But not a big deal when you are hypogonadotropic.

And in regard to Aromatase inhibitor (AI), you are correct that taking an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) will give you higher Free T and Total T since less of it is "lost" to estrogen. But the piece you are missing is that you need a certain amount of estrogen. If you drive your estrogen into the ground you will feel like shit and end up with some serious health problems.

Hormones are a balancing act. When you push on one hormone it pulls on another hormone. You need to find the right balance where you feel good and your numbers are healthy. It takes time to get things "dialed in".

 

[sarnold285]

Good posts by both Pork Chop and Halfwit.

I just want to reinforce that injecting testosterone will shut down what is remaining of your natural production. That's a big deal if your normal production is at healthy levels. But not a big deal when you are hypogonadotropic.

And in regard to Aromatase inhibitor (AI), you are correct that taking an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) will give you higher Free T and Total T since less of it is "lost" to estrogen. But the piece you are missing is that you need a certain amount of estrogen. If you drive your estrogen into the ground you will feel like shit and end up with some serious health problems.

Hormones are a balancing act. When you push on one hormone it pulls on another hormone. You need to find the right balance where you feel good and your numbers are healthy. It takes time to get things "dialed in".

Thanks for the info and it is good to confirm that starting a Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) program is a dedicated choice that if you start it its not something you plan to stop down the road which is think is ok since as a 28 year old my levels are so low. From what im hearing i am correct in thinking Aromatase inhibitor (AI) will raise free tes but from what im gathering everyone body reaction to external tes sources differs so i should hold back on taking Aromatase inhibitor (AI) until further bloodwork indicating that supplementing is cause an increase in estrogen levels. Am i correct in thinking that estrisol goes up in response to "excess" meaning if i am jsut supplementing to reach normal levels like around 600 to 800 total T that i more than likely will not run into that problem. Thanks for all the info it has been kinda hard to find situational specific info just looking around the web

 

[Megatron28]

Thanks for the info and it is good to confirm that starting a Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) program is a dedicated choice that if you start it its not something you plan to stop down the road which is think is ok since as a 28 year old my levels are so low. From what im hearing i am correct in thinking Aromatase inhibitor (AI) will raise free tes but from what im gathering everyone body reaction to external tes sources differs so i should hold back on taking Aromatase inhibitor (AI) until further bloodwork indicating that supplementing is cause an increase in estrogen levels. Am i correct in thinking that estrisol goes up in response to "excess" meaning if i am jsut supplementing to reach normal levels like around 600 to 800 total T that i more than likely will not run into that problem. Thanks for all the info it has been kinda hard to find situational specific info just looking around the web

You don't want to take an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) if you don't need it. Less medication is better. Unfortunately, some guys can't get to high enough TT levels (in the normal range) without have aromitisation problems and they need an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) if they are going to increase their test doses. Let me give you an example from my personal experience.

When I took 100mg of test once per week my estradiol got up to around 100. The peak of the normal range is somewhere around 42. I tried taking 50mg of test every 3.5 days. That dropped my E2 to around 35. Same amount of test per week -- just two shots instead of one big one. But the problem was that my TT was only around 500. I tried taking 60mg of test every 3.5 days. My TT went up to around 700 but my E2 shot up to around 80. I was at the tipping point. If I wanted to use more than 50mg every 3.5 days I was going to have to also use an Aromatase inhibitor (AI). I currently take 100mg of test every 3.5 days and .25mg of arimidex every 3.5 days. That puts me at TT of about 1100 and E2 in the 30's. For me, if I don't want to use an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) then I would have to settle for a lower TT level.

Everybody responds differently. I know guys that take half the test I do and they have TT in the 800's. Some guys don't need an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) on a testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose. Some do. You are going to have to see how your body responds by getting frequent lab work done. Ypu need to be patient and make adjustments until you get dialed in.

Let me repeat though, don't take and Aromatase inhibitor (AI) though unless ypou need one. Taking it when your E2 is already at a healthy level will drop you estrogen to near zero levels. You will have joint pain. You will be more fatigued than you can imagine. Longterm you could have bone problems. Estrogen is used for many things by your body. Estrogen isn't just for women.

 

[sarnold285]

You don't want to take an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) if you don't need it. Less medication is better. Unfortunately, some guys can't get to high enough TT levels (in the normal range) without have aromitisation problems and they need an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) if they are going to increase their test doses. Let me give you an example from my personal experience.

When I took 100mg of test once per week my estradiol got up to around 100. The peak of the normal range is somewhere around 42. I tried taking 50mg of test every 3.5 days. That dropped my E2 to around 35. Same amount of test per week -- just two shots instead of one big one. But the problem was that my TT was only around 500. I tried taking 60mg of test every 3.5 days. My TT went up to around 700 but my E2 shot up to around 80. I was at the tipping point. If I wanted to use more than 50mg every 3.5 days I was going to have to also use an Aromatase inhibitor (AI). I currently take 100mg of test every 3.5 days and .25mg of arimidex every 3.5 days. That puts me at TT of about 1100 and E2 in the 30's. For me, if I don't want to use an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) then I would have to settle for a lower TT level.

Everybody responds differently. I know guys that take half the test I do and they have TT in the 800's. Some guys don't need an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) on a testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose. Some do. You are going to have to see how your body responds by getting frequent lab work done. Ypu need to be patient and make adjustments until you get dialed in.

Let me repeat though, don't take and Aromatase inhibitor (AI) though unless ypou need one. Taking it when your E2 is already at a healthy level will drop you estrogen to near zero levels. You will have joint pain. You will be more fatigued than you can imagine. Longterm you could have bone problems. Estrogen is used for many things by your body. Estrogen isn't just for women.

Thanks that is exactly waht i needed to know and it is helpful to know that even low doses if your estrisol levels are normal can zero them out. I definately did not want to stop estrogen production and based off your knowledge it definately seems the possible benefit is not worth the risk. and thanks for the range for estrogen levels that somethingi can bring up on my next appointment in 2 months. My levels were normal for my initial visit where Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) was decided

 

[Megatron28]

Just for reference, most guys seem to do best when their E2 is between 20 and 30 using the sensitive assay. The regular assay is less accurate at lower E2 levels, but in general it seems to run 10-20 points higher than the sensitive assay. So for example, getting a 45 on the regular assay probably means you are truly somewhere between 25 and 35. But remember, you have to find out what works best for you. This gives you something to use as a guideline though to refer to.

 

[sarnold285]

Megatron28
since it seems your levels were close to mine when you started I wanted to ask your opinion about tes products. Does it matter if i use generic depo tes or do i need o pay teh extra for the brand name. Also what about tes with longer half lifes. If im taking 100 mg of the ones that stay active longer do i spread out the doses on a Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) program. also i was looking at thermaderm and was thinking if wanted to have periods of some hiogher gains i could do 4 to 6 cycles of that. But after i stopped cycle of thermaderm would i lose the gains since i would still be doing my normal Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) program so my levels would not bottom out like after a tes cycle. Also My wife has looked at what im doing and was curious if there was a product out there like thermaderm more geared toward women. I told her oral dhea tens to convert to estrogen faster so might be better but wasnt sure if there was something better. She has energy issues like i have and has never really had much of a libido. She is fine if i put he effort in to get her worked up but she has never really had much of a regular drive and dhea seems to be a possible fix

 

[sarnold285]

Megatron
Also you gave your tes levels are those levels what you get up to or are those tes levels at your trough

 

[sarnold285]

sorry i meant transaderm not thermaderm. Im reading way too much im getting it all mixed up thanks

 

[Megatron28]

Megatron28
since it seems your levels were close to mine when you started I wanted to ask your opinion about tes products. Does it matter if i use generic depo tes or do i need o pay teh extra for the brand name. Also what about tes with longer half lifes. If im taking 100 mg of the ones that stay active longer do i spread out the doses on a Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) program. also i was looking at thermaderm and was thinking if wanted to have periods of some hiogher gains i could do 4 to 6 cycles of that. But after i stopped cycle of thermaderm would i lose the gains since i would still be doing my normal Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) program so my levels would not bottom out like after a tes cycle. Also My wife has looked at what im doing and was curious if there was a product out there like thermaderm more geared toward women. I told her oral dhea tens to convert to estrogen faster so might be better but wasnt sure if there was something better. She has energy issues like i have and has never really had much of a libido. She is fine if i put he effort in to get her worked up but she has never really had much of a regular drive and dhea seems to be a possible fix

Generic or brand name does not matter. Same stuff. I get whatever is cheaper at the pharmacy.

Test with longer half life -- where do you live? In the US you usually get Test Cyp. In Europe they offer Test E or Nebido from what I can tell. Rest of the world -- not sure.

Transderm -- I haven't used this. But from what I can gather from all the guys around here, gels and creams do not work well over an extended period of time. Injections are preferred.

Cycles -- Honestly, that should be the last thing on your mind right now. Get your testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) protocol dialed in and start feeling better. It takes time to get everything dialed in.

For your wife, I would encourage you to get lab tests run for her. I just posted a thread in the women's forum on this website as my wife has been feeling run down too. You can see the labs we had run. You could also add a thyroid panel to what we had run. Since she had one recently we didn't repeat it. Also check the basics with her. Is she getting 8+ hours of good sleep? Diet? Stress? Etc. How old is she -- Menopause setting in? There are hormone treatments for women. A company like IMT would be a great one to discuss that with. If you think men's hormone's are complicated, wait till you look at women's. IMHO, they are infinitely more complicated than men's. Men's hormones are like a 3 note song on a harmonica. Women's hormone's are like Mozart played by a full orchestra.

 

[Megatron28]

Megatron
Also you gave your tes levels are those levels what you get up to or are those tes levels at your trough

Mine were trough's. But injecting every 3.5 days limits the big swings.