Basic Exercises...Basicly Wrong???

[SkedMedz]

There is an article in this months issue of "Flex" written by Bob Cicherillo. In a nutshell, he critiques a few basic, compound straightbar lifts, saying he would never again do them, that they are unneeded & overrated, as well as his reasons for those opinions. I gave my opinions on his views. I am interested in reading you guys opinion if you wish to post them.

1. SQUATS:

His Opinion: Says that they are "The king of all back-breakers & butt-builders". Also that (iho) they are not a quality mass builder for the thighs, unless you are short in stature. The examples proper stature Bob gave were Lee Priest & Dex Jackson, as far as having the right height for getting the most out of squats. He then goes on & says that the taller you are, the least effective squats become.

HIS SUBSTITUTE: Hack Squats/Leg Presses.

MY OPINION: I have to agree. Not so much with the short/tall thing, but the "butt-builder/back breaker" statement rather. That's all I get from them. Leg presses work way better. They focus more on the thighs, take the pressure off of the lower back(assuming you aren't using improper form), and nixes the balance issue making it easier for rep-forcing.

2. BEHIND-THE-NECK MILITARY PRESSES:

HIS OPINION: "No one should ever do them". "An unnatural & unsafe position". "Anything behind-the-neck is the worst...i.e Presses, Chins, Pulldowns".

SUBSTITUTE: Front-military presses(straightbar). D-bell presses(Arnold style).

MY OPINION: I have to agree, but I still do them. I go really light considering I go the whole way to the base of my neck, which probably makes it worse. Nothing seems to build my delts like those though.

3. BARBELL ROWS:

HIS OPINION: "An unnatural hand position, stance, & range of motion in general". "Lumbar reigon is highly vulnerable".

SUBSTITUTE: T-bar rows with chest supporting pad. 1 arm d-bell rows. Machine rows.

MY OPINION: I couldn't agree more. Even if you go light, I just dont see these hitting your back. To get it to hit your back, you are almost FORCED to get into an extremely unnatural stance to do so--almost at a 90 degree angle. Even with a proper stance--knees bent, standing basicly upright with a slight angle of between 0 & 45 drgrees, you then aren't hitting your back at all. That's just my opinion. They are the worst lift for back.

4. DEADLIFTS:

HIS OPINION: He says he "doesn't totally codemn them" but that "most guys tend to get little muscle for the amount of straining they do performing them". He is commenting from a BBing point of view. Not powerlifting it seems.

SUBSTITUTE: Top Deadlifts. Done on a smith-machine. Catches are placed so that you start the lift from knee level.

MY OPINION: He's way off on this one. The best overall body mass lift. If I could only do one lift. That would be the one.

5. BENCH PRESSES:

HIS OPINION: "Too much pressure on the shoulders". Again he says "the taller you are the worse it becomes as far as potential for injury". I'm assuming he means because the increased range-of motion with a longer armed person. Says "being able to say I bench #405 isn't worth the risk you are taking to say it". Says that "it is the exercise mostly associated with pec-tears". Says that as a mass-builder, it is over-rated, and that "there are 10 lifts that are superior to flat straightbar bench-presses for mass-building."

SUBSTITUTES: D-bells, machines cables. Pick an exercise.

MY OPINION: I agree & disagree. I agree that it is above average as far as the potential risk for a shoulder injury/pec tear. Also that most(especially young or beginner lifters) want heavy weight at the expense of form. Ever see that dude at the gym(every gym has at least one), who has that one arm dragging on flat bench(straightbar that is)? That needs to be immediately corrected. Dude needs to lighten the weights up on flat bench straightbar. Do more d-bells to strengthen the lagging pec. Also do d-bell military presses to strengthen the lagging shoulder as well. I disagree though as far as it not being the best mass builder for Chest. It definitely is for me. If I cut them out & just did my d-bell routine for say a month, I will notice that the width of my chest has shrunken.

Anyhow fellas, those are his opinions & mine. Remember now, these are basic lifts that he says are not worth doing, and can be replaced with the lifts he recommends instead. So what are your opinions?

 

[JCalvin619]

Great Post interesting read. I never do barbell rows, it doesnt seem like it hits my back enough, more in the rear delt and bicep area. As far as bench, I like dumbells more than the straight bar. When I bench straight bar it is a wide grip. And deads.....come on deadlifts fuckin kick ass!

 

[Jawbone]

Sked,

What IS the correct form for leg press. It seems like one cannot do them too wrong since they seem simple. I have found that I do not get too much of a range of movement with them. If I let my legs get too close to my chest, then my hips rotate. I was told that you should not let that happen. Thoughts?

The squats seems to make my legs stronger. After going back to LP after nothing but squatting, the weights on the LP seemed light. Could this be do to everything getting stronger but the quads?

 

[SkedMedz]

Sked,

What IS the correct form for leg press. It seems like one cannot do them too wrong since they seem simple. I have found that I do not get too much of a range of movement with them. If I let my legs get too close to my chest, then my hips rotate. I was told that you should not let that happen. Thoughts?

The squats seems to make my legs stronger. After going back to LP after nothing but squatting, the weights on the LP seemed light. Could this be do to everything getting stronger but the quads?

There is good & bad form on all exercises brother. When I said "good form", I was speaking on proper form to prevent lower back stressors & pressure, which could lead to serious injury. Going too deep on a heavy leg press, and allowing your hips & ass to roll up off of the pad, puts MASSIVE pressure on the lumbar reigon bro, just as you were told. You have to focus on not letting this happen. I do know what you are talking about though. The heavier you go on the Sled, the harder it is to not allow hips/ass to come off the lower back pads, right? Key is speed-of-movement. You don't have to load up the Sled with 15 plates on each side to go heavy. I go 8 plates at the most. I perform the negative with a slow 5-second count, then immediately into the positive. NO pause at the chest. I don't perform a count for the positive portion of the lift, but rather just get it up there in a controlled manner, BUT AFTER THAT I come right back into my 5-count-negative. NO PAUSE at the top bro, and NO LOCKOUT either. After doing a few reps in that maner, the weights will start to feel heavy real REAL quick, trust me. A better pump, a safer lift, and better for quads mass-building in my opinion. Not too visually stimulating to others, but most guys thinking such a thing don't know dickall about lifting quite frankly. When they see a guy with big legs, but who isn't doing alot of weight, it gives them some sort of satisfaction based in jealousy. Like "o ya he's big, but he aint that strong". Whatever. I hope that cleared my point up brotha! I tried

 

[elijah_123]

Quite a load of fertilizer if you ask me. Having spend 2 years trapped in a college gym with only machines. Good machines though ones that he suggests as subsitutes and making ok gains. Then I got a membership at a gym with free weights. My over all appearance got drastically better because of the support muscles that had to be employed.

I would agree on the barbell rows and bench press but only because the independant weight recruits more muscles. Dumbells for both seem much more effecitve at really hitting muscle groups. However his comment about too much pressure on the bench press is contradictory. The bar weighs too much but using dumbells that weigh the same or cables that put the same amount of resistance is ok? That makes no sense to me.

But you'll only get me away from squats, deadlifts and wide grip behind the neck pull ups when I'm dead. I love the feeling of standing on a platform to get more of a stretch on deadlifts, starting at the knee is a VERY short range of motion. That is like suggesting people only go down 7 inches on benchpress movements.

Where is his evidence that he problems with squats/dls/behind the neck exercizes are harmful. I feel more pain doing pull ups wide grip infront of my neck than behind the neck.

 

[SkedMedz]

Quite a load of fertilizer if you ask me. Having spend 2 years trapped in a college gym with only machines. Good machines though ones that he suggests as subsitutes and making ok gains. Then I got a membership at a gym with free weights. My over all appearance got drastically better because of the support muscles that had to be employed.

I would agree on the barbell rows and bench press but only because the independant weight recruits more muscles. Dumbells for both seem much more effecitve at really hitting muscle groups. However his comment about too much pressure on the bench press is contradictory. The bar weighs too much but using dumbells that weigh the same or cables that put the same amount of resistance is ok? That makes no sense to me.

Straightbar flat bench locks you into one plane of motion. D-bells allow for a more free range of motion, as well as recruiting more stabilizing muscles(as you said), which help support the area more when lifting heavy, thus decreasing the chances of injury. I definitely agree with him there.

But you'll only get me away from squats, deadlifts and wide grip behind the neck pull ups when I'm dead. I love the feeling of standing on a platform to get more of a stretch on deadlifts, starting at the knee is a VERY short range of motion. That is like suggesting people only go down 7 inches on benchpress movements.

I'm with you on all of that my brother.

Where is his evidence that he problems with squats/dls/behind the neck exercizes are harmful. I feel more pain doing pull ups wide grip infront of my neck than behind the neck.

I guess his "evidence" is based in personal experience bro.

 

[Trevdog]

I definately agree on the behind the neck presses. I'll never do them again although I did like the development I got from them. I've had too many shoulder injuries to risk them.

I am 6'0" and although I always squat, I think he is right as far as the taller you are the less you get. I'm going to leg press more often.

Rows, yes they do put a lot of strain on the low back. I usually rotate between them and T bar rows.

 

[elijah_123]

I'm not sure about his bench idea. It seems if your going heavy on dbell press that the shoulder area has to support just as much weight. The stabilizers mainly focus on keeping it going vertical, gravity still puts the weight on your shoulders. Subbing in flys I could see but not dbell or cables, maybe my brain just isn't working today
Not that I would advocate barbell over dbell, I definately thing dbell is more effective but I'd rather advocate it for good reasons I understand hehehe.

The behind the neck thing still confuses me, I'd love some actual proof/explanation of why it is harder. Lots of certified personal trainers say deadlifts and squats are evil and should be banned from gyms because they are SOOO dangerous. Their personal experience doesn't mean jack to me If there is a reason such as overloading a muscle group or straining the rotator cuff cool but if we are going of personal experience I've had less pain with behind the neck than in front so me and flex are even hehehe.

Good read though thanks for posting it.

 

[Beast_19_301]

I have been doing barbell rows for the longest time and I love them, I can wake up in the morning and feel the muscle in my back that I worked.

Other then that I agree with the read.

 

[DEVILtrainer666]

hmmm ?


if you are going to neglect barbell rows i sure hope your going heavy in the 1 arm dumbell row and t-bars .
if you are going to neglect rear bar squats (who in there right mind would unless injured or hips blown up etc ?) i sure hope to at least see you going heavy on leg presses and front squats/stiff leg deads .

i agree on the exercises behind the neck but i will add there ok if done after a pre-vious heavy movement accasionally for a pump/shock .
i also would say if your only doing deadlifts from half point i must ask why ? then dont do them do heavy good mornings/hyper ext. and shrugs !
anyways the heavy basics are bottom line the absolute best for size/strenth , i disagree with bob on this .

 

[catalyst]

I highly disagree with his position on squatting. I guess no decent powerlifters or olympic lifters ever built big, strong legs. Many of these people have never utilized a leg press.

The behind the neck military press will open the shoulder joint to a greater degree, forcing which puts the joint at more risk of injury. Some people may execute this exercise with little difficulty, but as a general rule, pressing in front is safer.

If the hand position on BB rows is uncomfortable, simply adjust your grip, this exercise is a fantastic mass builder. While a certain amount of lumbar stress will occur, the erectors may be strengthened by . . .

Deadlifts. No idea what to say here. Work the traps, erectors, etc. to a fantastic degree, plus an overall hormonal response on par with squatting. Why anyone would do only half the exercise while locked into an un-natural plane of motion is utterly beyond me.

Bench. One of the heaviest upper body movements possible. Risk to the shoulders can be minimized by altering technique, bringing the bar lower on the torso, keeping the elbows tucked neatly into the body. He instead prefers DB bench, which is harder to stabilize regardless of where the DB's are lowered to, and thinks that this is less risky?

 

[b fold the truth]

I'm not sure I could ever condone a workout program that did not advocate the use of Squat and Deadlifts. I can see the points on barbell rows, behind the neck press...and even some reason to use dbells with/and/or flat bench press...

B True

 

[Beast_19_301]

i totally by-passed the squats and deadlifts. I don;t care what Bob Cicherillo says, I been getting damn good results from both excercies. Bob Cicherillo is a friggen idiot IMO.

 

[DEVILtrainer666]

I highly disagree with his position on squatting. I guess no decent powerlifters or olympic lifters ever built big, strong legs. Many of these people have never utilized a leg press.

The behind the neck military press will open the shoulder joint to a greater degree, forcing which puts the joint at more risk of injury. Some people may execute this exercise with little difficulty, but as a general rule, pressing in front is safer.

If the hand position on BB rows is uncomfortable, simply adjust your grip, this exercise is a fantastic mass builder. While a certain amount of lumbar stress will occur, the erectors may be strengthened by . . .

Deadlifts. No idea what to say here. Work the traps, erectors, etc. to a fantastic degree, plus an overall hormonal response on par with squatting. Why anyone would do only half the exercise while locked into an un-natural plane of motion is utterly beyond me.

Bench. One of the heaviest upper body movements possible. Risk to the shoulders can be minimized by altering technique, bringing the bar lower on the torso, keeping the elbows tucked neatly into the body. He instead prefers DB bench, which is harder to stabilize regardless of where the DB's are lowered to, and thinks that this is less risky?

yeah from a safety stand point you would think a bar is safest . hell if thats the worry use hammer strenth or smith machine and flies right ? oh well , still good to read what others think i suppose .

 

[DEVILtrainer666]

i totally by-passed the squats and deadlifts. I don;t care what Bob Cicherillo says, I been getting damn good results from both excercies. Bob Cicherillo is a friggen idiot IMO.

lol , yeah i definately dont see training with out these 2 unless your messed up or keep getting re-injured from them for whatever reason . in that case find a good alternate ('s) .

 

[house1]

behind the neck presses i agree with.

the rest i dont

barbell rows put on great mass, closer grip with your elbows tucked tight to the body will kill your lats.

squats, great mass and all around leg builder

and come on no deadlifts wtf


if i had nothing to do but train everyday ya i could see giving the HARDER stuff.

fucking machines will never put on muscle like free weights

 

[zwarrior99]

I agree with him on the Squat and deadlifts, and military press opinion. But I do all 3, not really deadlifts though, they rip my back up(in the bad way!).

 

[70w30]

1-On squats being back breakers .....I have to dissagree on that one .If you are breaking your back you are compromising your form by trying to move too much weight.
2-I totally agree on his comments there.....I will never do rear pulldowns or behind the neck presses ever again.......your rotators are put at great risk in these two movements.
3-I dissagree here that rows are not a good movement.....If done correctly this is a great mass builder.
4- on the comments about deads ........he is a pussy......next to squats this excersise is anexcellent all round mass builder.
5-bench press............... everyone is of different body type some excersises suit some better than others..........to condemn certain excersises is just plain stupid in my book.

 

[jcp2]

I am 6'3 with naturally very very thin legs, and squats are the only things that do much, the leg press sucks for me, i do hacks and they work to a degree but not like squats. I fucking hate squating, but i am doing them twice a week even though.

 

[rodman9866]

i have that flex and read that article and laughed outloud reading it.

for behind the neck presses i am in total agreement with him.

for squats and deads.......i call him pussy! if his back hurts then widen your stance man. deads are just the same as friggin squats except the weight is on the floor instead of your shoulders. deads are my best lifts in terms of poundages and they tax me the most.

barbell rows i keep my hands inside the inner most rings and i feel nothing but lats working....i see a lot of pro's doing barbell rows and they havbe they hands as wide as they can and i can see how they can bring there lower backs into the movement using that grip.

benchpress.......yeah i am aggreeing and disaggreeing on this one.....i still flat bench but i put all my incline mopvemts first and still use flat bench to get an overall chest workout just not super heavy as when i try to incline a lot of weight.


in short my opinion on his guy and his article: they dont call him chic for nothing lol.