Clomid or Arimidex Only to Increase Free Test

[goiterjoe]

It seems to me that clomid wouldn't help any, but nolvadex and letrozole might be beneficial in raising testosterone for training purposes. I would personally be afraid that using your own body to raise testosterone levels might reset your base hormonal levels to a lower setting once you stopped treatment.

 

[foreverstrong37]

Thanks, do you think there would be any harm from using Arimidex .25 mg ?
Would this prevent conversion to estrogen thus increasing free circulating testosterone ?

Thanks

 

[roccodart440]

"Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels."

I used clomid and nolva for a week and then nolva for 3 weeks following. I got gains like the guys here get whiloe using steroids. I wonder if I should have scontiniued using it longer?

 

[Micromegas]

"Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels."

I used clomid and nolva for a week and then nolva for 3 weeks following. I got gains like the guys here get whiloe using steroids. I wonder if I should have scontiniued using it longer?

What were your doses?

And why would you mix Clomiphene with Tamoxifen? Tamoxifen is much better considering it takes alot less to get the same things done as 10 times as much clomiphene. Also Clomiphene does not have antiestrogenic properties like Tamoxifen does.

Our findings suggest that Clomid and its Enclomid isomer, unlike tamoxifen, exert a direct estrogenic rather than an antiestrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cells by enhancing the GnRH-stimulated release of gonadotropin.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6781360&dopt=Abstract

 

[Slayer]

This is multiple leveled hearsay, but I was told by a mod on another board that his friend's doctor did prescribe 50mg of clomid a day to this friend for low test levels. It wasn't an ongoing thing, just 30 days then retested.

I know this isn't info that many are going to rely on, but unfortunately this is the kind of stuff we have to rely on to a certain degree with this thing of ours being outlawed. Take it for what its worth.

 

[GymLift]

I don't see how you would not get muscular beneifts from raising your testosterone levels with SERM's

All that I said is men do not notice the subjective benefits of testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) using using a SERM as sole testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). SWALE reported this and I have been a good number of reports myself that indicate same. Any reasonable testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) protocol should not be expected to have a signiciant effect on muscle mass unless the man was severely hypogonadal prior to testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) or hypogonadal for a long long.

Regardless, the study that you posted says nothing about muscular benefits. I don't know why you posted the study. A SERM _will_ block negative feedback to the hypothalmus, then increasing testosterone production in normal men. This isn't disputed.

But to be sure, a SERM is not going to raise serum testosterone levels to those levels that are typical with an Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) cycle.

 

[Micromegas]

This is multiple leveled hearsay, but I was told by a mod on another board that his friend's doctor did prescribe 50mg of clomid a day to this friend for low test levels. It wasn't an ongoing thing, just 30 days then retested.

I know this isn't info that many are going to rely on, but unfortunately this is the kind of stuff we have to rely on to a certain degree with this thing of ours being outlawed. Take it for what its worth.

Not really, There are plenty of short term scientific studies on these types of things and their effects on the hormone levels. As i've mentinoed before Clomid isn't really what I would use if I were planning on using a SERM but here is a study relating to the use of clomid and it's effects on testosterone.

There were no side effects reported by the patients. CONCLUSIONS: Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism. This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=16422830&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum

 

[roccodart440]

What were your doses?

week one clomid 50mg nolva 20mg
week 2 nolva 30mg
week 3 nolva 20mg
week 4 nolva 20mg

And why would you mix Clomiphene with Tamoxifen?
"Clomiphine and tamoxifen are selective to which tissues they bind too. Clomid being selective to the suprapituitary, while Tamox is selective to breast, bone, and liver ERs. I've come to this conclusion based on the comparison of studies on both SERMs. In every study showing benefit to HPTA from tamoxifin, the duration of the administration is 3-12months(This includes studies cited by William Llewellyn in his nolva vs Clomid article). In studies showing levels of LH, FSH, and Testosterone checked after short durations of tamox, they were either insignificant, or their was an actual drop. I believe this is because tamox selectively works at the mammery(as well as bone and liver), thus taking longer for LH stimulation to occur."

Tamoxifen is much better considering it takes alot less to get the same things done as 10 times as much clomiphene.
"This leads into the theory that 150mg clomid = 20mg nolva correct?

Also Clomiphene does not have antiestrogenic properties like Tamoxifen does.
Not true. THey are not as strong but both are serms.

 

[roccodart440]

ONe FACT to keep in mind is that clomid is given by doctors to both male and female patients as fertility treatment. NOlva is not.

 

[Micromegas]

All that I said is men do not notice the subjective benefits of testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) using using a SERM as sole testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). SWALE reported this and I have been a good number of reports myself that indicate same. Any reasonable testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) protocol should not be expected to have a signiciant effect on muscle mass unless the man was severely hypogonadal prior to testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) or hypogonadal for a long long.

Regardless, the study that you posted says nothing about muscular benefits. I don't know why you posted the study. A SERM _will_ block negative feedback to the hypothalmus, then increasing testosterone production in normal men. This isn't disputed.

But to be sure, a SERM is not going to raise serum testosterone levels to those levels that are typical with an Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) cycle.

1.Define "Subjective benefit"

2.Why would an increase in testosterone not help with musclemass?

3.Are you saying there would be no increase in testosterone at all using a SERM on a male without hypogonadism?

4.What levels of testosterone are normal for a Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) cycle?

 

[Micromegas]

Not true. THey are not as strong but both are serms.

This study says that Clomid exerts a direct estrogenic rather than an antiestrogenic effect by enhancing the GnRH-stimulated release of gonadotropin.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6781360&dopt=Abstract

 

[Micromegas]

In studies showing levels of LH, FSH, and Testosterone checked after short durations of tamox, they were either insignificant, or their was an actual drop. I believe this is because tamox selectively works at the mammery(as well as bone and liver), thus taking longer for LH stimulation to occur."[/B]

This is simply false...In reality Clomid has little or negative effects on LH,Testosterone and FSH levels...NOT tamoxifen. Tamoxifen increases LH,FSH and test levels.

The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=640052&dopt=Abstract

 

[roccodart440]

1.Define "Subjective benefit"

2.Why would an increase in testosterone not help with musclemass?

A physicians definition of Subjective benifit - MAkes me the most money. Gets the person hooked on a drug that will create further problems for them that I can treat with other drugs that will do the same. Treats the symptoms and not the cause of the disorder at hand. Be sure to Misinform the patient or leave out crucial information.

I'll repeat that in 4 weeks of using a serm I got the same gains the people here claim on 500+mg of test a week. I must add that I have low testosterone.

 

[foreverstrong37]

Roccodart, did you have any loss of libido or sex probs after you stopped the nova?

Thanks

 

[roccodart440]

This is simply false...In reality Clomid has little or negative effects on LH,Testosterone and FSH levels...NOT tamoxifen. Tamoxifen increases LH,FSH and test levels.

Hey I didn't write it I quoted it. It's pheedno's PCT.

 

[GymLift]

1.Define "Subjective benefit"

The patients perceived benefit from the testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). Perhaps that most common subjective benefit that hypogonadal men perceive is a feeling of well being and increased energy. Of course, correction of erection issues, increased libido and less irritability and also things that testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) patients mention, and those all seem like very good things. And yes, long term changes in body fat % and LBM can be attributed to testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), although it is sometimes difficult to know if this is directly because of the androgenic effect on the muscle tissue or if it is due to the fact that the men finally has the energy to go to the gym, etc.

2.Why would an increase in testosterone not help with musclemass?

Yes. But having free testosterone at the top of the normal range rather than at the bottom of the normal range isn't going to have anything near the effect on muscle mass as, say, an Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) cycle.

3.Are you saying there would be no increase in testosterone at all using a SERM on a male without hypogonadism?

Now I have to wonder if you are just wasting my time. I have already said in this thread that there is no doubt that a SERM will increase LH/FSH output and thus increase serum testosterone levels in a normal man. Nobody is disputing this!

4.What levels of testosterone are normal for a Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) cycle?

For a testosterone Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) cycle, very supraphysiological levels, for sure.

 

[GymLift]

This is simply false...In reality Clomid has little or negative effects on LH,Testosterone and FSH levels...NOT tamoxifen. Tamoxifen increases LH,FSH and test levels.

You are simply clueless.

Nolvadex (tamoxifen citrate), Clomid (clomiphene citrate) and Evista (raloxifene hydrochloride) _ALL_ will increase testosterone levels in normal men. The evidence of this is overwelming. Stop citing a small 1978 study on prepubescent boys that you are unable to understand in an attempt to support your bogus claim.

 

[foreverstrong37]

Would arimidex increase free testosterone levels ?

 

[Micromegas]

For a testosterone Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) cycle, very supraphysiological levels, for sure.

As in what numbers would be expected for an average Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) cycle for an average male? What testosterone numbers?

You are simply clueless. Nolvadex (tamoxifen citrate), Clomid (clomiphene citrate) and Evista (raloxifene hydrochloride) _ALL_ will increase testosterone levels in normal men. The evidence of this is overwelming. Stop citing a small 1978 study on prepubescent boys that you are unable to understand in an attempt to support your bogus claim.

I haven't seen any other studies on it. If you have any to the contrary please provide them.

And BTW the study was done on grown men.

 

[GymLift]

As in what numbers would be expected for an average Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) cycle for an average male? What testosterone numbers?

Numbers vary on the lab, which is why I used the term supraphysiological. If you are consistantly maintaining testosterone at supraphysiological levels for a matter of weeks, then that is definitely what we call AAS. It sure as hell isn't TRT.

But the cycles that we often see around here, using as little as 300mg/week, will easily place total serum testosterone above 2,000mg/dL at any lab. So there are some numbers for you. Have fun with them.

I haven't seen any other studies on it. If you have any to the contrary please provide them.

The anecdoctal evidence is overwelming even if no studies existed, but I took 5 seconds to find one to help you out:

Clomiphene increases free testosterone levels in men with both secondary hypogonadism and erectile dysfunction: who does and does not benefit?

And BTW the study was done on grown men.

The 1978 study that I eluded to does not.

And you did not understand that study abstract. If you had, then you would not have posted it, claiming that it supported your claim.