Clomid or Arimidex Only to Increase Free Test

[Micromegas]

The anecdoctal evidence is overwelming even if no studies existed, but I took 5 seconds to find one to help you out:

Clomiphene increases free testosterone levels in men with both secondary hypogonadism and erectile dysfunction: who does and does not benefit?

The 1978 study that I eluded to does not.

And you did not understand that study abstract. If you had, then you would not have posted it, claiming that it supported your claim.

Thanks, I found more studies showing clomid can increase testosterone also.


BTW what didn't I understand about the study I posted?

 

[GymLift]

BTW what didn't I understand about the study I posted?

Study Abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=640052&dopt=Abstract

The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid).
What this means is that Nolvadex increases LH, FSH, testosterone and estradiol in much the same way as Clomid. You argued otherwise.

However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL (sic)

It seems that you read the above statement to mean that LH output decreased with Clomid, but that isn't what it said. It says that LH response to LHRH (luteinizing hormone releasing hormone; perhaps more often called gonadotropin releasing hormone: GnRH) is decreased with clomid. But the thing that you have to realize is that GnRH (LHRH) output is significantly increased with use of clomid or nolvadex. In fact, this apparent desensitization _may_ (I don't know) be caused because GnRH output is excessively elevated. Ultimately, there is a net gain in LH output.

Also of note, it is important to realize that a LOT of studies are flawed and so it is important to read the entire study to determine if the study is even valid. Unfortunately, full study text is not usually available to everyone for free. In the case of an old study like this, the study might not be available online anywhere. So sometimes you just have to take a study summary abstract at face value, but you shouldn't put too much emphasis on it. In the case of clomid, I really don't care what the study data says because the anecdoctal evidence is so overwelming that it increases serum testosterone. It is like doing a study to show that Benadryl makes many people sleepy; we already know that it does and if the study says otherwise, then the study is just plain wrong.

 

[Micromegas]

Study Abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=640052&dopt=Abstract

The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid).
What this means is that Nolvadex increases LH, FSH, testosterone and estradiol in much the same way as Clomid. You argued otherwise.

However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL (sic)

It seems that you read the above statement to mean that LH output decreased with Clomid, but that isn't what it said. It says that LH response to LHRH (luteinizing hormone releasing hormone; perhaps more often called gonadotropin releasing hormone: GnRH) is decreased with clomid. But the thing that you have to realize is that GnRH (LHRH) output is significantly increased with use of clomid or nolvadex. In fact, this apparent desensitization _may_ (I don't know) be caused because GnRH output is excessively elevated. Ultimately, there is a net gain in LH output.

Also of note, it is important to realize that a LOT of studies are flawed and so it is important to read the entire study to determine if the study is even valid. Unfortunately, full study text is not usually available to everyone for free. In the case of an old study like this, the study might not be available online anywhere. So sometimes you just have to take a study summary abstract at face value, but you shouldn't put too much emphasis on it. In the case of clomid, I really don't care what the study data says because the anecdoctal evidence is so overwelming that it increases serum testosterone. It is like doing a study to show that Benadryl makes many people sleepy; we already know that it does and if the study says otherwise, then the study is just plain wrong.

I see.


But one thing....You have to be weary of anecdotal evidence as well considering it's highly unreliable. There is tons of anecdotal evidence aliens abduct people and bigfoot roams the woods but no reasonable person would take such things seriously. Anecdotal evidence can be flawed even more than scientific studies can.
With scientific studies you can analize them and determine how they came to the conclusion they came to and determine if it's flawed or not. You can't do that with anecdotal evidence.

 

[foreverstrong37]

Lab Results, Is this balanced ?

Blood Tests
Total Test, 733
Free Test, 12 (8.7 25.1)
Estradiol Sensitive, 17 (3-70)
Prolactin, 1.7
LH, 4.2
FSH 3.8
SHBG 54 (13-71)



Can anyone tell me why libido could still be so low? Is estrogen balanced? Im thinking of taking a little arimidex to free up some test ? Any advice is appreciated. Thanks

 

[GymLift]

Blood Tests
Total Test, 733
Free Test, 12 (8.7 25.1)
Estradiol Sensitive, 17 (3-70)
Prolactin, 1.7
LH, 4.2
FSH 3.8
SHBG 54 (13-71)



Can anyone tell me why libido could still be so low? Is estrogen balanced? Im thinking of taking a little arimidex to free up some test ? Any advice is appreciated. Thanks

Your estradiol might already be too low. I do not recommend using Arimidex to lower it even more. Less estrogen likely will only hurt your libido even more.

If you have symptoms of hypogonadism, with free testosterone at the level you mentioned, then you might benefit from TRT.

 

[roccodart440]

Roccodart, did you have any loss of libido or sex probs after you stopped the nova?

Thanks

NO

 

[roccodart440]

Yes. But having free testosterone at the top of the normal range rather than at the bottom of the normal range isn't going to have anything near the effect on muscle mass as, say, an Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) cycle.

I think this depends alot on the individual. tHe results for me were outstanding.

Something to read from the study MRANAK posted. "For those with lower than normal age-matched levels of testosterone treatment directed at normalizing testosterone with clomiphene citrate is a viable alternative to giving androgen supplements."

 

[foreverstrong37]

so my problem is not that Testosterone is converting to estrogen correct? But there is a fair amount of SHBG, so its getting bound there. How can I free that up? Lowering estrogen is supposed to lower SHBG but you said that estrogen is already too low.

Rocco, are you suggesting I use clomid? Will I too then be able to do the barbell trick that you do in your avatar ?

 

[foreverstrong37]

Do you think proviron would help me ?

 

[roccodart440]

Proviron will help free up SBHG adn will increase lidido. It is actually used to treat the symptoms of hypogoionadism.

I attribute my avatar to great genetics. MY great, great great grandaddy was from africa.

 

[Lookinthick]

Wait up!

I'm confused here....

I thought your Toatl T was 930 or so

What is the 733 doing on the results...typing error?

Either/or are descent numbers. Not fantastic, but pretty good

 

[foreverstrong37]

yea my first test was 937, then on the 28th I got another test because people said I should get the free test too. And it was 733. I dont know why it was lower, maybe because it was later in the day. 3pm instead of 10am like the first test. Or maybe it was just going down because I stopped training and eating my 6 meals a day for a little while. Anyhow, I wonder why libido is so low even with strong total test.?? Free test was only 12 though. Not good. But why ??

 

[roccodart440]

free test is low and total test is at the top of the normal range. Interesting to say the least.

 

[foreverstrong37]

Taking proviron now. Libido is going through the roof. 25mg twice a day. Can anyone explain this ? Could DHT have been low ? If so, what would cause me to naturally make more DHT ?

 

[ludakris9]

No I dont use DHT inhibitors like propecia, I thought about it though, but my hair is still decent. Just receding hairline some but not on top.

Can anyone tell me why, taking some Arimidex will not increase my free testosterone ? as someone said ?

Thanks[/QUOte}

From my research it doesn't seem like it would raise your free testosterone. I have heard that Cialas does!

 

[foreverstrong37]

Ive heard that cialis does too, although I can't understand how that would be possible. I read some stuff that said simply having an erection stimulates testosterone production so maybe just frequency of erection caused by cialis increases testosterone. Bizarre. I know the proviron does something for the thoughts, the androgens do something I cant explain but I am horny as a goat. LOL

 

[Slayer]

This was a great thread.