Clomid trt side effects (e2 and LH)

[Bann114th]

Hey all new here,

Long story short I was diagnosed with secondary hypogondism, my total test was below 250 on three separate bloods (325-xx range), all other readings were within range.
I was placed on clomid. 25mg every other day for low T. My test has jumped to 900 however my e2 has also jumped to 92 (believe range is 20-45). Is running an AI like aromasin with clomid going to cause any unwanted sides? Also what are the sides of having an LH that is 18 (3-8 range)?

Thanks

 

[Milton]

Good points!

 

[JimiThing]

Do you have symptoms of high e2 though? I have heard where clomid can cause false elevated e2 readings on blood work.
Also you LH is very high because aprently there is a problem with you converting LH to test so I think in your case that will always be so, abnormally high LH vs actual T levels.

 

[Jimstigator]

When I was on long term Nolvadex, similar to Clomid, my estrogen went way up. I also never felt great, no matter my estrogen levels, and that seems to be commonplace with guys on long term Clomid or Nolva. It took 1.25mg Arimidex a week to keep it in check. Fast forward a few years to now, while on testosterone injections, that same dose of Arimidex would drop my estrogen to zero and beyond.

I don't have a sound reason why, other than that some theorize "testicular aromatization" caused by high LH levels can be tough to manage with Arimidex.

You could start with just lowering your Clomid dose if you wanted to try something without adding anything new. Hell - you might have even "restarted" and could try coming off Clomid completely over the course of a week or two, and seeing of the elevated levels of testosterone stick.

-Jim

 

[IMT staff]

Clomid sucks! I am starting to think it is also suppressive to the somatotropic axis. Its next to worthless.

 

[Bann114th]

Thanks guys I guess I have one more question, if I were to come off clomid and switch to injection plus hcg would my fertility remain intact? I don't understand how hcg continues fertility without mimicking Fsh hormone.

Thanks again

 

[Megatron28]

When I was on long term Nolvadex, similar to Clomid, my estrogen went way up. I also never felt great, no matter my estrogen levels, and that seems to be commonplace with guys on long term Clomid or Nolva. It took 1.25mg Arimidex a week to keep it in check. Fast forward a few years to now, while on testosterone injections, that same dose of Arimidex would drop my estrogen to zero and beyond.

I don't have a sound reason why, other than that some theorize "testicular aromatization" caused by high LH levels can be tough to manage with Arimidex.

You could start with just lowering your Clomid dose if you wanted to try something without adding anything new. Hell - you might have even "restarted" and could try coming off Clomid completely over the course of a week or two, and seeing of the elevated levels of testosterone stick.

-Jim

The reason for the different responses to AI while on clomid vs. test is due to the fact that the HPTA feedback loop is working with clomid and shut down with test. Akin to how AI-Monotherapy works.

 

[IMT staff]

Thanks guys I guess I have one more question, if I were to come off clomid and switch to injection plus hcg would my fertility remain intact? I don't understand how hcg continues fertility without mimicking Fsh hormone.

Thanks again

Yes it sure would.

"Conclusions: Low dose human chorionic gonadotropin appears to maintain some parameters in hypogonadal men on testosterone replacement therapy. Concurrent testosterone replacement and human chorionic gonadotropin use may preserve fertility in hypogonadal males who desire fertility preservation while on testosterone replacement therapy"

Concomitant intramuscular human chorionic gonadotropin preserves spermatogenesis in men undergoing testosterone replacement therapy. - PubMed - NCBI

We also have countless records of guys conceiving while on TRT. Funny enough I had a guy email me last night, he was not intending to have kids, I had even told him to be careful. He still somehow got prego

 

[3J]

Thanks guys I guess I have one more question, if I were to come off clomid and switch to injection plus hcg would my fertility remain intact? I don't understand how hcg continues fertility without mimicking Fsh hormone.

Thanks again

[h=1]Testosterone Replacement Therapy ( TRT ) and Fertility Explained[/h]TESTOSTERONE REPLACEMENT April 6, 2016 developer

By 3J
Trt is an amazing advancement in men***8217;s health that has helped so many people all over the world. We are no longer stuck with the horrible effects of low testosterone. Though it is an amazing way to deal with low testosterone, it also comes with a price. Testosterone replacement therapy will leave you virtually infertile. This isn***8217;t a problem for those who have already had children, those who are older, or those who don***8217;t want to conceive, but for those who actually plan on having children trtcan be a major obstacle. The use of exogenous testosterone will always reduce a males sperm count to an infertile level. Imagine being married to a woman who has unequivocally denied ever wanting to have children. You spend years with this woman without a change of heart and, suddenly, she drops the ***8220;I want a baby***8221; bomb on you. Having a child is a miracle of life, its a wonderful thing. What isn***8217;t wonderful is the fact that you had started trt years ago with your wife***8217;s adamant denial of having children in mind. You now face a major problem. You are obviously infertile thanks to your trt usage, but there is hope! Lets cover some basics.
The HPTA
The hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis (HPTA) is a negative feedback loop system involving the hypothalamus, pituitary gland, and the gonads (testicles). Its main function in the body that concerns us in this article is the regulations of hormones which include testosterone and the development of sperm (spermatogenesis). In short, the hypothalamus releases a gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) which triggers the pituitary gland which directly affects the pituitary gland releasing the luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH). The LH***8217;s function is to signal the production of testosterone while the FSH signals the production of sperm. When testosterone is created in the body it is regulated by the aromatase enzyme. The male body likes to keep, roughly, a 10 to 1 ratio of testosterone to estrogen. When testosterone levels rise to a certain level the aromatase enzyme converts testosterone to estrogen. Estrogen, among other things, regulates the negative feedback loop in the HPTA by inhibiting the production of GnRH.

Lets review this system in simple terms​

HPTA
Hypothalamus -> GnRH -> Pituitary -> LH, FSH -> Gonads -> Testosterone, Spermatogenesis -> Hypothalamus +/- Estrogen = +/- GnRH
Its not just estrogen that will stop the loop. An excess of any of the hormones that play in the negative feedback loop could suppress the system. Hcg, which mimics the LH, is a perfect example.
TRT and Fertility
To the naked eye its obvious that estrogen is the main regulator of the HPTA in natural healthy males (there are other hormones involved that can suppress your hpta). When a subject begins a TRT protocol the exogenous presence of testosterone overrides the negative feedback loop. The pituitary stops sending LH and FSH to the gonads and the natural production of testosterone along with everything else the LH and FSH regulate shuts down. Since FSH is the main conductor of spermatogenesis and that system has been shut down, you become infertile.
Spermatogenesis
Spermatogenesis is the process and development of sperm. It begins within the gonads and moves to the epididymis where sperm is stored until ejaculation. The important fact to take away from spermatogenesis is that the duration of the entire process can take anywhere between 2 to 3 months.
hCG and hMG Solutions to infertility
Wouldn***8217;t it be wonderful if we could somehow just skip half this feedback loop and regulate the production of testosterone and spermatogenesis exogenously? Thankfully we have two very valuable compounds, hCG (Human Chorionic Gonadrotropin) and hMG (Human Menopausal Gonadotropin). hCG is a hormone typically produced by the embryo following implantation (all pregnancy tests test for the presence of hCG in the female subjects urine). Through science we have been able to synthetically produce hCG. In males, the importance of hCG comes with its ability to mimic LH. Injecting hCG is the equivalent of the pituitary releasing LH and giving the gonads the signal to produce testosterone. The gonads go back to work, keeping your system from shutting down completely. Though hCG has no effect on FSH, it does have an effect on spermatogenesis. Though your system is shut down there is FSH lingering around in the body. Studies have shown that there is usually more than enough FSH in the body to cause a rise in a males sperm count enough to conceive. If the desired response from hCG is not met, the use of hMG is a more practical approach. hMG kicks both LH and FSH into gear and causes a considerable rise in sperm production. Keep in mind that the production of sperm takes up to 3 months to complete so the use of these medications have to be sustained for at least 3 months before you start to see the real benefit from them.
hCG Protocol
Ive read 3 different fertility specialists articles in the last month and each one had a different dosage and frequency of hCG injection that they preferred. Once said 600iu every other day, the second said 1500iu twice a week, and the last one surprisingly said 5000iu once a week