biggiesmallz
New member
If I violate some unknown forum rules ahead of time, please forgive me, I'm new here just sharing knowledge. If there are violations, then please just edit them out as you see fit, thank you kindly for understanding
Understanding Gynecomastia;
Every now and then we get the same question popping up around here, on how to treat gyno. I figured I would make this basic outline for the average lifter/supplement user to explain the basic function of estrogen, gyno, and it's known cures so that it can be properly understood and is referenced all in one place.
The only reason we fear gyno is because we don't understand it.
Some guys are more estrogen sensitive than others, meaning they get gyno symptoms moreso than others when running compounds, or even certain compounds. That said, you're not going to grow tits overnight, with the proper use of SERM/AI you can reverse the effects and control the flare ups.
Now let's take a look at Estrogen, and the relative drugs used to manipulate it's effects;
Our bodies (male bodies) generally have a balanced ratio of estrogen to testosterone naturally, and naturally your body will always try to bring itself to this balance. When we use hormonal supplements, sometimes that balance is skewed off-kilter due to hormonal supplementation and the body trying to regulate itself in the presence of these new hormones.
Understanding testosterone to estrogen conversion;
Your HPTA (Hypothalamic Pituitary Testicular Axis, can google this) is responsible for GnRH, LH/FSH, and testosterone production (basic sex, or reproduction hormones). The aromatase enzymes are then responsible for maintaining the balance between natural testosterone output, and estrogen conversion. So aromatase enzymes are what convert Testosterone to estrogen. (By the way, as a side note, cholesterol converts to testosterone, so during PCT it's good to keep a little more healthy fats in the diet to promote healthy testosterone recovery/production)
So what happens when we start to experience estrogen-related gyno symptoms?
What does that mean in relation to estrogen levels conversion within the body? By the time you start to get sensitive, red, itchy, irritated, or painful nipples or lumps around the nipple area, that basically means that your estrogen levels are already elevated beyond the natural balance, and are starting to cause trouble by binding to receptors, and overflowing in places that it should not be. So, when that happens, there are two basic things we can do to go about rectifying the issue; or two basic drugs we can use;
Drugs that "control" or "manipulate" estrogen;
SERMs: Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators. There are four main SERMs; Tamoxifen Citrate (Nolva), Toremifine Citrate (Torem), Clomiphene (Clomid) and Raloxifene (Ralox). SERMs have two basic functions;
1. Binding to estrogen receptors at the breast tissue, effectively blocking circulating estrogen from binding to them, thus alleviating the formation of gynecomastia (soft-tissue glob formations at the breast)
2. Signaling the HPTA for increased GnRH output, which then signals for increased production of LH/FSH, which then signals for the increased production of testosterone. (as I understand it)
These four have somewhat similar, but slightly individual and different functions. For the purpose of testosterone boosting/recovery, Clomid, Tamox, and Torem would work plenty well for Post Cycle Therapy to artificially help stimulate the HPTA and raise testosterone production.
Clomid: This one in particular sends a strong LH signal to the HPTA and promotes good testosterone recovery/production. However, not the best SERM when it comes to treating Gyno. Commonly dosed 50mg/day for the duration of PCT period (4-6 weeks) can be tapered down to 25mg daily for the final week.
Tamoxifen: This one is an all-around SERM which does a great job at both boosting testosterone production, as well as blocking estrogen receptors at the breast so that estrogen cannot bind to them. Commonly dosed 20mg/day for the duration of PCT period (4-6 weeks) or gyno treatment (2-6 weeks) can be tapered down to 10mg daily for the final week.
Torem: Similar to Tamoxifen, practically twins in chemical composition, this one too has been known to be very effective at boosting testosterone levels as well as blocking estrogen receptors at the breast tissue. Commonly dosed 60mg/day for the duration of PCT period (4-6 weeks) or gyno treatment (2-6 weeks) can be tapered down to 30mg daily for the final week.
Raloxifene: This one in particular is the weakest of the four SERMs at boosting testosterone recovery, but is allegedly (from all of the studies I have seen) the best candidate for blocking estrogen receptors at the breast tissue. Commonly dosed 60mg/day for the duration of PCT period (4-6 weeks) or gyno treatment (2-6 weeks) can be tapered down to 30mg daily for the final week. This one has also been effectively used to treat pubertal Gyno.
For the purposes of treating Gyno, either Raloxifene, Tamoxifen, or Toremifene should suffice at blocking estrogen from binding at the breast tissue receptors. That will only solve half the problem.
What happens to the estrogen as it's "overflowing" in our system?
Basically put, the estrogen can be blocked through the use of a SERM to keep it from binding to breast tissue, but the existing estrogen has to live out its life span, there is no other way to "get rid" of it... so all we are doing is preventing it from causing trouble while it lives out it's silly little life span and the balance is re-established. So, then, how to re-establish the estrogen balance back to normal? Which brings us to our next point;
AIs: Aromatase Inhibitors. These drugs inhibit the Aromatase enzyme, which as mentioned above, is responsible for the conversion of androgens (testosterone) to estrogen. So the Aromatase enzyme is basically responsible for the creation of estrogen. Your body naturally makes the required amount of Aromatase enzymes to maintain balance between Test and Estro. There are numerous Aromatase Inhibitors available, of various potencies.
Competitive AIs:
The Competitive Inhibitors are ones that compete for the aromatase enzyme, so there is a chance that the bond between the inhibitor and the enzymes can break, which may lead to rebound Gyno if not properly tapered down.
Arimidex (Anastrazole): This Aromatase inhibitor (AI) is fairly mild, but relatively strong, and is commonly dosed around 1mg per day (heavily) or .5mg eod (every other day) or e3d for general preventive measures. Arimidex is known for having slightly negative effect on good cholesterol levels (lipids) so is generally best used sparingly, if at all.
Letrozole: This is by far the strongest available Aromatase Inhibitor on the market, and is generally very good at clearing out all estrogen production, depending on dosage and duration, in the body. Best used as last resort, but can be effectively dosed at low doses for preventive measures/control. Generally heavy dose is around 2.5mg daily for reversal of gyno, more on the proper dosing of this one later in this thread.
Suicidal AIs:
The Suicidal Inhibitors are ones that Permanently bind to aromatase enzymes and render them ineffective at creating more estrogen for the time that they are taken. Your body will eventually continue it's production of aromatase enzymes naturally, and balance will be re-established once you stop taking this AI.
Arimistane: Main active Aromatase inhibitor (AI) in E-Control 2.0/Erase/Erase Pro/ BSL's Eradicate. Is a mild suicidal aromatase inhibitor, and is generally effective in most light or mild cases for prevention and reversal of gyno symptoms, along with the use of a SERM, if caught early enough. Dosing 2-3 caps daily should be plenty.
Aromasin (Exemestane): This Aromatase inhibitor (AI) is generally dosed around 25mg daily, or 12.5mg daily, or every other day as needed (some even dose at 6.75mg daily for simple preventive/regulatory measures). Best to dose this daily, since the active half-life is something like 9 hours. Roughly equivalent to Arimidex in effect; the two are fairly comparable. Exemestane is more favorable since it does not have a huge impact on cholesterol levels/lipids as adex does.
There is no need to taper down the suicidal AIs after use, since they cannot cause rebound as far as I know. If running a strong Competitive Inhibitor (such as letro) it's best to follow up with a Suicidal Inhibitor afterwards for a couple of weeks, to avoid estrogen rebound.
ALL AI's pretty much do the same thing, suicidal AI's are better than Competitive ones in general tho to avoid rebound:
If you think of the alcohol analogy, E-control 2.0 or Arimistane, is like the beer of AI's. It takes quite a few beers to "overdo" it, and it's still safe and effective in it's own right. Exemestane and Arimidex is like the wine of AI's. They're more potent than Arimistane, but still fairly moderate and relatively safe when properly dosed. Letro is like the liquor of AI's... if you don't respect the dosing properly, it can certainly "mess you up" because it's simply much more potent so creates a quicker and stronger effect from same relative dosage.
PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER:
So if SERMs block estrogen from binding at the breast tissue, avoiding further formations of lumps, how do we effectively keep MORE estrogen from forming while the overflowing estrogen is metabolized out of our system? With the proper use of Aromatase Inhibitors.
In the right combination, and dosing, one can safely, and effectively combine SERMs and AIs to treat and reverse Gyno symptoms. One just has to be patient, and consistent with the dosage over time. Keep in mind, SERMs raise circulating estrogen. I presume the reason for this is because they also boost testosterone production, which in turn converts to more estrogen production. But while on the SERM treatment, they do block estrogen from binding to estrogen receptors in the breast tissue, thus effectively preventy gyno formations. So, to control further estrogen production, while the existing "too much" estrogen gets metabolized out of the system, a low-dosed Aromatase inhibitor (AI) (Aromatase Inhibitor, preferrably a Suicidal Inhibitor) would work just fine. It's also advisable to dose the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) a couple of weeks after stopping your SERM to avoid estrogen rebound. SERMs generally have an active half-life of around 5-7 days.
WHAT DOES THIS ALL MEAN? EXAMPLES PLEASE: So, for example, I had a lump forming from my last cycle that went on for a couple of weeks, and then I finally decided enough was enough and had to treat it from getting any worse... so I started dosing nolva 20mg daily, and Arimidex at 1mg daily, with a couple of 2.5mg Letro tabs peppered in the first three days 1 tab daily, and then 1 tab every 3rd day or so untill my lump went away, then I dropped the Letro, continued to dose the arimidex 1mg every 3 days, dropped the SERM, and carried on with my cycle (all this over the course of 3 weeks), dosing the Arimidex .5mg every 3 days for preventive measures. You don't have to use Letro at all, you can just use a SERM and any other Aromatase inhibitor (AI) properly dosed, preferrably a suicidal one.... pick whichever one's relative potency is applicable to your situation. (Exemestane (Aromasin) is stronger than Arimistane (e-control))
You can do the same thing by substituting Raloxifene in the place of Tamoxifen (nolva), or by using Torem instead of Nolva. You can also use Arimistane instead of Arimidex, since it's a suicidal Aromatase inhibitor (AI) and is more preferred, healthier in general. If you must use Letro for heavy cases, it would be best to follow up with a suicidal Aromatase inhibitor (AI) for a couple of weeks after stopping Letro use, to avoid rebound.
Another Approach to treating gyno, is the Strictly-Letro protocol, which will just crush all estrogen production in your system, and is generally dosed like this;
This is assuming the liquid concentration of your letro is 2.5mg/mL, so up to 14 days at 2.5mg letro per day
Of course, you could also just start at effective dosage (2.5mg daily) until you get the desired effect (gyno regression/reversal) and then taper down.
The only thing about the strictly-letro approach I personally don't like, is that letro entirely crushes the estrogen in your system.
It's usually best NOT to entirely CRUSH your estrogen if you can help it. Some estrogen is vital to many bodily functions within your system:
Estrogen is responsible for a host of beneficial functions in your system, within it's proper balance. Too much can lead to gyno or irritation, not enough can also be problematic. Estrogen is responsible for proper libido boost/function, proper weight management (too much can also add extra fat), as well as proper joint lubrication (not enough estrogen can dry out joints and lead to creaky/weak/dry joint movement) and too much or too little estrogen can also lead to mild or fairly severe feeling of lethargy.... so it's vital to keep it properly balanced.
HOW DO I KNOW IF MY ESTROGEN IS BALANCED?
The "side effects" from high estrogen are more on a progressive scale of a full range, it's not just black and white constricted to gyno or no gyno symptoms. It also impacts erectile function, general mood, and a host of other bodily functions and processes, some more sensitive than others. I don't know how estrogen levels correlate to what's shown on bloodwork, as far as side effects go. I've never taken bloodwork for estro levels, I've always just went off feel and sensitivity, and adjusted my dosage accordingly based on my own observation of libido, mood swings, and/or nipple sensitivity/beginning of lump formations
So I don't know how significant of an effect 55-85 estro level has on a person, I just know when everything is in the optimal range you shouldn't have mood swings (from estrogen), or attention-need issues, or erectile issues, or any nipple sensitivity, or any form of mild lethargy, or dry joint issues, or abnormal weight fluctuation (extra fat gain)
If you guys go completely off the beaten path of sensitivity, and have no clue where your estrogen levels are, then you can always GET BLOODWORK!
To make sure everything is in the balanced range, or to treat whichever hormone ends up being out of whack.
KEEP IN MIND:
I assume the same to be true for all SERMs.
WHERE DO I GET SERMs/AIs?
I'm not too sure about forum rules, so I decided not to post any direct sources, but I'm sure you guys can google search your way to a proper place if needed, or maybe there's a board sponsor, I dunno. Best of luck!
That's about all I got folks, this lays it all out to the best of my understanding and personal experience. If any moderators care to contribute, or clear up anything they see fuzzy, or add to, or any of the other experienced members, feel free to do so. I just figured I'd make this thread as a quick how-to reference for the average user that share this common question. Thanks for reading, and happy curing
-Biggie
P.S. For further gyno cures on other forms of gyno, please see:
ironmagazine.com/2013/gynecomastia-causes-cures/
HOW DO I Pee Cee Tee?:
As mentioned above; For the purpose of testosterone boosting/recovery, Clomid, Tamox, and Torem should work plenty well for Post Cycle Therapy to artificially help stimulate the HPTA and raise testosterone production and assist in natural recovery. All of those three would be sufficient for PCT purposes; pick one, either one should work. That said, the experienced users generally find that one of those in particular tends to agree the best with their specific physiology. Since every case is unique and individual, I would recommend that everyone listen to your own body; your body already knows best what's best for you. In some cases it may be necessary to try one for one post cycle therapy (pct), and then another for another PCT down the road if so inclined, before settling on the one that you feel most comfortable with.
For me specifically, I chose torem right off the bat, and that was the one that most agrees with me. I have since then also had to use nolva when I didn't have torem on-hand, and it worked just fine for its purposes, but I still feel most comfortable with nonexistent side effects when using torem. That said, here is the relative proper dosing of each one for PCT purposes;
Clomid: 50/50/50/25 (mg daily, per week, for four weeks)
Nolva: 20/20/20/10
Torem: 90/60/60/30
Keep in mind these are just general guidelines, they are not rules set in stone. For heavier or longer cycles, it may be necessary to extend the SERM PCT an extra week or two. Feel it out and do what you feel is best within your given situation; you always know your situation the best.
Should I add natty test boosters to my PCT regimen?
That is entirely up to you. You can if you want, it most certainly wouldn't hurt. If you feel you need it, by all means add it in. Generally speaking tho, if your SERM is legit and good quality, then that should be all you really need for recovery. That said, adding a test booster is optional, and may provide a slight benefit. Use your own judgement, and if you feel you need it then by all means toss one in.
Do I need an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) with my PCT protocol?
Some guys are more estrogen sensitive than others, so in certain cases adding a mild suicidal Aromatase inhibitor (AI) like ERASE or Exemestane may actually benefit. Since every case is unique and individual, if unsure, it may be wise to at least have one on hand. If deciding to use it, then adding it in a couple of weeks into the SERM, and maybe running it a week or two past the SERM treatment may be a good approach. Again, use your own judgement. When I ran my last post cycle therapy (pct), I had 6-oxo on-hand, used it for a week, and then just didn't feel like I needed it at all, so I ended up just finishing off with torem. Had no issues whatsoever. So, everything is all situational, listen to your own body. When all else fails, you can always get bloodwork post-PCT to verify that all hormones are in the balanced range.
That's pretty much all I got folks, I hope that clears everything up for the newcomer. If anyone would like to add to, or make any specific corrections where they see fit, feel free to do so. Best of luck, and happy cycling
Understanding Gynecomastia;
Every now and then we get the same question popping up around here, on how to treat gyno. I figured I would make this basic outline for the average lifter/supplement user to explain the basic function of estrogen, gyno, and it's known cures so that it can be properly understood and is referenced all in one place.
The only reason we fear gyno is because we don't understand it.
Some guys are more estrogen sensitive than others, meaning they get gyno symptoms moreso than others when running compounds, or even certain compounds. That said, you're not going to grow tits overnight, with the proper use of SERM/AI you can reverse the effects and control the flare ups.
Now let's take a look at Estrogen, and the relative drugs used to manipulate it's effects;
Roun3er said:
Our bodies (male bodies) generally have a balanced ratio of estrogen to testosterone naturally, and naturally your body will always try to bring itself to this balance. When we use hormonal supplements, sometimes that balance is skewed off-kilter due to hormonal supplementation and the body trying to regulate itself in the presence of these new hormones.
Understanding testosterone to estrogen conversion;
Your HPTA (Hypothalamic Pituitary Testicular Axis, can google this) is responsible for GnRH, LH/FSH, and testosterone production (basic sex, or reproduction hormones). The aromatase enzymes are then responsible for maintaining the balance between natural testosterone output, and estrogen conversion. So aromatase enzymes are what convert Testosterone to estrogen. (By the way, as a side note, cholesterol converts to testosterone, so during PCT it's good to keep a little more healthy fats in the diet to promote healthy testosterone recovery/production)
So what happens when we start to experience estrogen-related gyno symptoms?
What does that mean in relation to estrogen levels conversion within the body? By the time you start to get sensitive, red, itchy, irritated, or painful nipples or lumps around the nipple area, that basically means that your estrogen levels are already elevated beyond the natural balance, and are starting to cause trouble by binding to receptors, and overflowing in places that it should not be. So, when that happens, there are two basic things we can do to go about rectifying the issue; or two basic drugs we can use;
Drugs that "control" or "manipulate" estrogen;
SERMs: Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators. There are four main SERMs; Tamoxifen Citrate (Nolva), Toremifine Citrate (Torem), Clomiphene (Clomid) and Raloxifene (Ralox). SERMs have two basic functions;
1. Binding to estrogen receptors at the breast tissue, effectively blocking circulating estrogen from binding to them, thus alleviating the formation of gynecomastia (soft-tissue glob formations at the breast)
2. Signaling the HPTA for increased GnRH output, which then signals for increased production of LH/FSH, which then signals for the increased production of testosterone. (as I understand it)
These four have somewhat similar, but slightly individual and different functions. For the purpose of testosterone boosting/recovery, Clomid, Tamox, and Torem would work plenty well for Post Cycle Therapy to artificially help stimulate the HPTA and raise testosterone production.
Clomid: This one in particular sends a strong LH signal to the HPTA and promotes good testosterone recovery/production. However, not the best SERM when it comes to treating Gyno. Commonly dosed 50mg/day for the duration of PCT period (4-6 weeks) can be tapered down to 25mg daily for the final week.
Tamoxifen: This one is an all-around SERM which does a great job at both boosting testosterone production, as well as blocking estrogen receptors at the breast so that estrogen cannot bind to them. Commonly dosed 20mg/day for the duration of PCT period (4-6 weeks) or gyno treatment (2-6 weeks) can be tapered down to 10mg daily for the final week.
Torem: Similar to Tamoxifen, practically twins in chemical composition, this one too has been known to be very effective at boosting testosterone levels as well as blocking estrogen receptors at the breast tissue. Commonly dosed 60mg/day for the duration of PCT period (4-6 weeks) or gyno treatment (2-6 weeks) can be tapered down to 30mg daily for the final week.
Raloxifene: This one in particular is the weakest of the four SERMs at boosting testosterone recovery, but is allegedly (from all of the studies I have seen) the best candidate for blocking estrogen receptors at the breast tissue. Commonly dosed 60mg/day for the duration of PCT period (4-6 weeks) or gyno treatment (2-6 weeks) can be tapered down to 30mg daily for the final week. This one has also been effectively used to treat pubertal Gyno.
For the purposes of treating Gyno, either Raloxifene, Tamoxifen, or Toremifene should suffice at blocking estrogen from binding at the breast tissue receptors. That will only solve half the problem.
What happens to the estrogen as it's "overflowing" in our system?
Basically put, the estrogen can be blocked through the use of a SERM to keep it from binding to breast tissue, but the existing estrogen has to live out its life span, there is no other way to "get rid" of it... so all we are doing is preventing it from causing trouble while it lives out it's silly little life span and the balance is re-established. So, then, how to re-establish the estrogen balance back to normal? Which brings us to our next point;
AIs: Aromatase Inhibitors. These drugs inhibit the Aromatase enzyme, which as mentioned above, is responsible for the conversion of androgens (testosterone) to estrogen. So the Aromatase enzyme is basically responsible for the creation of estrogen. Your body naturally makes the required amount of Aromatase enzymes to maintain balance between Test and Estro. There are numerous Aromatase Inhibitors available, of various potencies.
Competitive AIs:
The Competitive Inhibitors are ones that compete for the aromatase enzyme, so there is a chance that the bond between the inhibitor and the enzymes can break, which may lead to rebound Gyno if not properly tapered down.
Arimidex (Anastrazole): This Aromatase inhibitor (AI) is fairly mild, but relatively strong, and is commonly dosed around 1mg per day (heavily) or .5mg eod (every other day) or e3d for general preventive measures. Arimidex is known for having slightly negative effect on good cholesterol levels (lipids) so is generally best used sparingly, if at all.
Letrozole: This is by far the strongest available Aromatase Inhibitor on the market, and is generally very good at clearing out all estrogen production, depending on dosage and duration, in the body. Best used as last resort, but can be effectively dosed at low doses for preventive measures/control. Generally heavy dose is around 2.5mg daily for reversal of gyno, more on the proper dosing of this one later in this thread.
Suicidal AIs:
The Suicidal Inhibitors are ones that Permanently bind to aromatase enzymes and render them ineffective at creating more estrogen for the time that they are taken. Your body will eventually continue it's production of aromatase enzymes naturally, and balance will be re-established once you stop taking this AI.
Arimistane: Main active Aromatase inhibitor (AI) in E-Control 2.0/Erase/Erase Pro/ BSL's Eradicate. Is a mild suicidal aromatase inhibitor, and is generally effective in most light or mild cases for prevention and reversal of gyno symptoms, along with the use of a SERM, if caught early enough. Dosing 2-3 caps daily should be plenty.
Aromasin (Exemestane): This Aromatase inhibitor (AI) is generally dosed around 25mg daily, or 12.5mg daily, or every other day as needed (some even dose at 6.75mg daily for simple preventive/regulatory measures). Best to dose this daily, since the active half-life is something like 9 hours. Roughly equivalent to Arimidex in effect; the two are fairly comparable. Exemestane is more favorable since it does not have a huge impact on cholesterol levels/lipids as adex does.
There is no need to taper down the suicidal AIs after use, since they cannot cause rebound as far as I know. If running a strong Competitive Inhibitor (such as letro) it's best to follow up with a Suicidal Inhibitor afterwards for a couple of weeks, to avoid estrogen rebound.
ALL AI's pretty much do the same thing, suicidal AI's are better than Competitive ones in general tho to avoid rebound:
If you think of the alcohol analogy, E-control 2.0 or Arimistane, is like the beer of AI's. It takes quite a few beers to "overdo" it, and it's still safe and effective in it's own right. Exemestane and Arimidex is like the wine of AI's. They're more potent than Arimistane, but still fairly moderate and relatively safe when properly dosed. Letro is like the liquor of AI's... if you don't respect the dosing properly, it can certainly "mess you up" because it's simply much more potent so creates a quicker and stronger effect from same relative dosage.
PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER:
So if SERMs block estrogen from binding at the breast tissue, avoiding further formations of lumps, how do we effectively keep MORE estrogen from forming while the overflowing estrogen is metabolized out of our system? With the proper use of Aromatase Inhibitors.
In the right combination, and dosing, one can safely, and effectively combine SERMs and AIs to treat and reverse Gyno symptoms. One just has to be patient, and consistent with the dosage over time. Keep in mind, SERMs raise circulating estrogen. I presume the reason for this is because they also boost testosterone production, which in turn converts to more estrogen production. But while on the SERM treatment, they do block estrogen from binding to estrogen receptors in the breast tissue, thus effectively preventy gyno formations. So, to control further estrogen production, while the existing "too much" estrogen gets metabolized out of the system, a low-dosed Aromatase inhibitor (AI) (Aromatase Inhibitor, preferrably a Suicidal Inhibitor) would work just fine. It's also advisable to dose the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) a couple of weeks after stopping your SERM to avoid estrogen rebound. SERMs generally have an active half-life of around 5-7 days.
WHAT DOES THIS ALL MEAN? EXAMPLES PLEASE: So, for example, I had a lump forming from my last cycle that went on for a couple of weeks, and then I finally decided enough was enough and had to treat it from getting any worse... so I started dosing nolva 20mg daily, and Arimidex at 1mg daily, with a couple of 2.5mg Letro tabs peppered in the first three days 1 tab daily, and then 1 tab every 3rd day or so untill my lump went away, then I dropped the Letro, continued to dose the arimidex 1mg every 3 days, dropped the SERM, and carried on with my cycle (all this over the course of 3 weeks), dosing the Arimidex .5mg every 3 days for preventive measures. You don't have to use Letro at all, you can just use a SERM and any other Aromatase inhibitor (AI) properly dosed, preferrably a suicidal one.... pick whichever one's relative potency is applicable to your situation. (Exemestane (Aromasin) is stronger than Arimistane (e-control))
You can do the same thing by substituting Raloxifene in the place of Tamoxifen (nolva), or by using Torem instead of Nolva. You can also use Arimistane instead of Arimidex, since it's a suicidal Aromatase inhibitor (AI) and is more preferred, healthier in general. If you must use Letro for heavy cases, it would be best to follow up with a suicidal Aromatase inhibitor (AI) for a couple of weeks after stopping Letro use, to avoid rebound.
Another Approach to treating gyno, is the Strictly-Letro protocol, which will just crush all estrogen production in your system, and is generally dosed like this;
chrisotpherm said:
This is assuming the liquid concentration of your letro is 2.5mg/mL, so up to 14 days at 2.5mg letro per day
Of course, you could also just start at effective dosage (2.5mg daily) until you get the desired effect (gyno regression/reversal) and then taper down.
The only thing about the strictly-letro approach I personally don't like, is that letro entirely crushes the estrogen in your system.
It's usually best NOT to entirely CRUSH your estrogen if you can help it. Some estrogen is vital to many bodily functions within your system:
Estrogen is responsible for a host of beneficial functions in your system, within it's proper balance. Too much can lead to gyno or irritation, not enough can also be problematic. Estrogen is responsible for proper libido boost/function, proper weight management (too much can also add extra fat), as well as proper joint lubrication (not enough estrogen can dry out joints and lead to creaky/weak/dry joint movement) and too much or too little estrogen can also lead to mild or fairly severe feeling of lethargy.... so it's vital to keep it properly balanced.
HOW DO I KNOW IF MY ESTROGEN IS BALANCED?
The "side effects" from high estrogen are more on a progressive scale of a full range, it's not just black and white constricted to gyno or no gyno symptoms. It also impacts erectile function, general mood, and a host of other bodily functions and processes, some more sensitive than others. I don't know how estrogen levels correlate to what's shown on bloodwork, as far as side effects go. I've never taken bloodwork for estro levels, I've always just went off feel and sensitivity, and adjusted my dosage accordingly based on my own observation of libido, mood swings, and/or nipple sensitivity/beginning of lump formations
So I don't know how significant of an effect 55-85 estro level has on a person, I just know when everything is in the optimal range you shouldn't have mood swings (from estrogen), or attention-need issues, or erectile issues, or any nipple sensitivity, or any form of mild lethargy, or dry joint issues, or abnormal weight fluctuation (extra fat gain)
If you guys go completely off the beaten path of sensitivity, and have no clue where your estrogen levels are, then you can always GET BLOODWORK!
To make sure everything is in the balanced range, or to treat whichever hormone ends up being out of whack.
KEEP IN MIND:
heavyiron said:
I assume the same to be true for all SERMs.
heavyiron said:
WHERE DO I GET SERMs/AIs?
I'm not too sure about forum rules, so I decided not to post any direct sources, but I'm sure you guys can google search your way to a proper place if needed, or maybe there's a board sponsor, I dunno. Best of luck!
That's about all I got folks, this lays it all out to the best of my understanding and personal experience. If any moderators care to contribute, or clear up anything they see fuzzy, or add to, or any of the other experienced members, feel free to do so. I just figured I'd make this thread as a quick how-to reference for the average user that share this common question. Thanks for reading, and happy curing
-Biggie
P.S. For further gyno cures on other forms of gyno, please see:
ironmagazine.com/2013/gynecomastia-causes-cures/
HOW DO I Pee Cee Tee?:
As mentioned above; For the purpose of testosterone boosting/recovery, Clomid, Tamox, and Torem should work plenty well for Post Cycle Therapy to artificially help stimulate the HPTA and raise testosterone production and assist in natural recovery. All of those three would be sufficient for PCT purposes; pick one, either one should work. That said, the experienced users generally find that one of those in particular tends to agree the best with their specific physiology. Since every case is unique and individual, I would recommend that everyone listen to your own body; your body already knows best what's best for you. In some cases it may be necessary to try one for one post cycle therapy (pct), and then another for another PCT down the road if so inclined, before settling on the one that you feel most comfortable with.
For me specifically, I chose torem right off the bat, and that was the one that most agrees with me. I have since then also had to use nolva when I didn't have torem on-hand, and it worked just fine for its purposes, but I still feel most comfortable with nonexistent side effects when using torem. That said, here is the relative proper dosing of each one for PCT purposes;
Clomid: 50/50/50/25 (mg daily, per week, for four weeks)
Nolva: 20/20/20/10
Torem: 90/60/60/30
Keep in mind these are just general guidelines, they are not rules set in stone. For heavier or longer cycles, it may be necessary to extend the SERM PCT an extra week or two. Feel it out and do what you feel is best within your given situation; you always know your situation the best.
Should I add natty test boosters to my PCT regimen?
That is entirely up to you. You can if you want, it most certainly wouldn't hurt. If you feel you need it, by all means add it in. Generally speaking tho, if your SERM is legit and good quality, then that should be all you really need for recovery. That said, adding a test booster is optional, and may provide a slight benefit. Use your own judgement, and if you feel you need it then by all means toss one in.
Do I need an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) with my PCT protocol?
Some guys are more estrogen sensitive than others, so in certain cases adding a mild suicidal Aromatase inhibitor (AI) like ERASE or Exemestane may actually benefit. Since every case is unique and individual, if unsure, it may be wise to at least have one on hand. If deciding to use it, then adding it in a couple of weeks into the SERM, and maybe running it a week or two past the SERM treatment may be a good approach. Again, use your own judgement. When I ran my last post cycle therapy (pct), I had 6-oxo on-hand, used it for a week, and then just didn't feel like I needed it at all, so I ended up just finishing off with torem. Had no issues whatsoever. So, everything is all situational, listen to your own body. When all else fails, you can always get bloodwork post-PCT to verify that all hormones are in the balanced range.
That's pretty much all I got folks, I hope that clears everything up for the newcomer. If anyone would like to add to, or make any specific corrections where they see fit, feel free to do so. Best of luck, and happy cycling
