DangerousGrounds
New member
Seems a good combo, just wondering on any inputs on this subject.
Does anyone mix clen in conjution with slin.
- Thread starter DangerousGrounds
- Start date
DangerousGrounds
New member
thanks bro
here ya go!
THE SKINNY ON INSULIN: PART II
There has been increasing popularity, and curiosity, concerning exogenous use of "the most anabolic hormone in the body". This makes it necessary to inform people how to maximize muscle mass acquisition and minimize nasty body fat accumulation when using it. The following is the second article dealing with the effects of exogenous insulin use, combined with several other bodybuilding drugs and supplements, from a muscle anabolism and fat catabolism point of view. Part I outlined insulin use combined with: anabolic steroids, the C/A/E stack, and clenbuterol.
INSULIN AND GROWTH HORMONE
Growth hormone (GH) is one of the most sought after bodybuilding drugs due to its' legendary abilities to strip off body fat and increase muscle mass. The former is accomplished through direct lipolysis (fat release from adipocytes), which GH does to an incredible degree. Muscle mass acquisition is accomplished through: the direct stimulation of protein synthesis, increasing amino acid uptake by muscle cells, and by greatly stimulating IGF-1 synthesis in the liver. It is this last point that is of interest to us because it is the main anabolic mechanism for GH, and it is also where insulin comes in to play. More than half of GHs' anabolic effect is due to IGF-1 production, but unfortunately this is quite often wasted. This is because IGF-1 has an extremely short half life in the bloodstream, so it usually doesn't reach many target tissues (muscles for our interest) to exert maximum anabolic effect. To rectify this situation, insulin can be used to increase the amount of an IGF-1 binding protein (specifically IGF1-BP3) that actually helps IGF-1 to reach the muscles and exert its' extreme anabolism. Insulin also reduces the amount of "bad" IGF1 BP's, (BP's 2 and 4) that would normally interfere with IGF-1 uptake and use by muscle. To say that there is a synergistic effect between insulin and GH doesn't do the combination justice. It makes me shudder to think of the hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on GH, without using it to the maximum anabolic potential. From a fat loss perspective, GH is incredible. It should directly negate the lipogenic effect of insulin, leaving you with one KICK ASS combination.
INSULIN AND THYROID HORMONES
With the huge increases in fat mass often accompanying insulin use, it seems like a simple solution to use thyroid hormone. Unfortunately, this doesn't work out very well. The reason is that thyroid hormone (specifically T3 and possibly T4) increases the amount of the "bad" IGF1-BP's mentioned earlier;IGFBP2 and IGFBP4. This may not seem like a big deal if one is not using drugs to stimulate IGF-1 synthesis, but IGF-1 levels are naturally stimulated through acts like stretching, and even natural testosterone/GH increases. All of these things normally accompany workouts (if you know what you're doing), which is the best time to take insulin. So by having all of the free IGF-1 bound by IGFBP3s' evil siblings, much of the anabolic effect of insulin is lost! Since T3 (triiodothyronine) is the main culprit, does that mean that T4 (tetraiodothyronine) can be used with no detrimental effect? NO, because T4 is mostly effective by converting to T3, which leaves you with the same problem. In fact, T4 could very well do the same thing. So if you want to maximize the anabolic effectiveness of insulin while minimizing bodyfat accumulation, use another fat burner and leave the thyroid alone.
INSULIN AND CREATINE
These compounds may have an anti-synergistic effect on each other, meaning that the combined effect is less than the sum of the individual effects. This possibility exists due to both components' ability to store water in muscle cells. If only a certain amount of water can be stored in the cells through each mechanism of action, then the anti-synergistic condition would exist. Although this condition is unlikely, it is worth mentioning for future experimentation purposes (lab rats know where to contact me). One definite advantage of this combination is that creatine is best absorbed by the muscles when insulin serum levels are high, insuring maximum effectiveness. BTW-if one is not doing something as fundamental as using creatine, there is no way they should be using insulin (so basically insulin use requires creatine use).
INSULIN AND HCA
Getting straight to the point, unless you are a moron and are eating fat during insulin use, or you have crappy insulin sensitivity, HCA is the second most effective fat gain inhibitor next to clenbuterol (which is only more effective due to its' ridiculously long half life). Hydroxy Citric Acid (HCA) is the main ingredient in Citrimax, and is a bargain in terms of its': relative effectiveness (when using insulin), cost (cheap, cheap, cheap), and availability. It works by inhibiting an enzyme called ATP citrate ly(s)ase (ACL), which basically converts ingested carbs to fat (which insulin promptly stores). This is normally NOT a big deal since ACL levels are normally low in most humans. However, insulin drastically increases ACL levels (which should make sense based on what you now know about insulin) accounting for most of the, responsible use, fat gain associated with insulin use. This is the most exciting find since the discovery of insulin as an anabolic! Using insulin and not gaining fat while gaining muscle? What a concept! Although I don't like to go into the details of use directly, I believe it is warranted here. 500-750mgs HCA should be taken with or within half an hour after the insulin shot. The usually recommended 250mgs is ineffective in dealing with the drastic increase in ACL levels. The HCA is taken with the shot because both start to work on about one half hour, so the HCA can begin to be effective at the same time that insulin is trying to increase ACL levels. This regimen (only 3X500mgs HCA) prevented fat gain during a day when I used 3 separate insulin shots! To make things even better there is a mild glycogen storage property associated with HCA use. Since ingested carbs cannot be converted to, or stored as, fat, they are generally stored (due to insulin) as glycogen in muscle giving the user a mild but noticeable pump (similar to the first day of creatine use). To end this portion of the list, I give HCA my highest recommendation as the number 1 supplement to use with insulin!
INSULIN AND FLAX SEED OIL
Short and sweet. Don't use flax seed oil with insulin, because it is fat and *will* be stored. The fat storage rules totally change when insulin is involved (I even avoid vitamin E capsules because mine are oil based).
INSULIN AND CLENBUTEROL UPDATE
This may look like an ideal combination at first, but research has shown why my muscle gains with this combo were minimal. Clen reduces insulin sensitivity, which means that insulin will have a much harder time doing its' anabolic job on muscle tissue. In addition to storing amino acids as muscle, insulin also stores carbs in muscle (which gives a very "full" look to the muscles), which reduced insulin sensitivity also hinders. This is also combined with the fact that clen reduces Glut-4 transporters (which allow glucose passage, and subsequent storage, into muscle) in skeletal muscle which probably accounts for clens' ability to reduce muscle glycogen concentration. On a lighter note, the fat burning effects of clen are potentiated by aspirin and caffeine (through personal experience) but still die off after a few weeks. Overall the only time I would recommend this combination occurs when coming off a cycle and every bit of anabolism is needed, otherwise the two drugs have a bad effect (from an anabolic standpoint) on each other.
SIMPLE TIPS TO MAXIMIZE ANABOLISM AND MINIMIZE FAT GAIN WITH INSULIN USE
-USE HCA
- use testosterone enhancing compounds to increase hepatic IGF-1 production
- only use insulin first thing in the morning or during/after workouts
- don't consume *any* fat 2 hours before (due to digestion time) or one hour after (due to induced enzyme activity) insulin use
- stretch to locally increase IGF-1 levels
- continually eat protein spread over the 4-5 hour duration of insulin activity
Finally, my favorite tip from Docroid: (I) use one shot of insulin just before a one hour workout and another shot two hours after the first. This creates synergism between the activity of the two shots by the later shot increasing in activity at the same time as the first shot decreases in activity, giving one a steady high insulin level at the most important time for anabolism! The only time I can say that I have seen dramatic results from insulin use (in terms of muscle anabolism) occurs when I do this "technique". HOWEVER, this is *very* tricky, in terms of serum glucose levels, even for seasoned insulin users. After using for a while, one can get used to the "feel" of insulin, blood sugar crashes, feeding times etc. but things change when one has a high level of insulin for 3-4 hours straight. I've had to eat every hour for three hours during one of my first attempts at this technique, but every two hours some other attempts. This is the only time I don't feel secure with my own insulin use. It's actually a good thing I can now recognize what a blood sugar crash feels like or I'd probably be dead due to this technique. I don't recommend this technique to anyone (and if that's not a big deal to you, just remember who is writing this) but if you feel like using it, make sure that you have had a couple of, (horrible) insulin induced, serum glucose crashes so you can recognize the early warning signs for when you have them (and you *will* have them).
bmf2
THE SKINNY ON INSULIN: PART II
There has been increasing popularity, and curiosity, concerning exogenous use of "the most anabolic hormone in the body". This makes it necessary to inform people how to maximize muscle mass acquisition and minimize nasty body fat accumulation when using it. The following is the second article dealing with the effects of exogenous insulin use, combined with several other bodybuilding drugs and supplements, from a muscle anabolism and fat catabolism point of view. Part I outlined insulin use combined with: anabolic steroids, the C/A/E stack, and clenbuterol.
INSULIN AND GROWTH HORMONE
Growth hormone (GH) is one of the most sought after bodybuilding drugs due to its' legendary abilities to strip off body fat and increase muscle mass. The former is accomplished through direct lipolysis (fat release from adipocytes), which GH does to an incredible degree. Muscle mass acquisition is accomplished through: the direct stimulation of protein synthesis, increasing amino acid uptake by muscle cells, and by greatly stimulating IGF-1 synthesis in the liver. It is this last point that is of interest to us because it is the main anabolic mechanism for GH, and it is also where insulin comes in to play. More than half of GHs' anabolic effect is due to IGF-1 production, but unfortunately this is quite often wasted. This is because IGF-1 has an extremely short half life in the bloodstream, so it usually doesn't reach many target tissues (muscles for our interest) to exert maximum anabolic effect. To rectify this situation, insulin can be used to increase the amount of an IGF-1 binding protein (specifically IGF1-BP3) that actually helps IGF-1 to reach the muscles and exert its' extreme anabolism. Insulin also reduces the amount of "bad" IGF1 BP's, (BP's 2 and 4) that would normally interfere with IGF-1 uptake and use by muscle. To say that there is a synergistic effect between insulin and GH doesn't do the combination justice. It makes me shudder to think of the hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on GH, without using it to the maximum anabolic potential. From a fat loss perspective, GH is incredible. It should directly negate the lipogenic effect of insulin, leaving you with one KICK ASS combination.
INSULIN AND THYROID HORMONES
With the huge increases in fat mass often accompanying insulin use, it seems like a simple solution to use thyroid hormone. Unfortunately, this doesn't work out very well. The reason is that thyroid hormone (specifically T3 and possibly T4) increases the amount of the "bad" IGF1-BP's mentioned earlier;IGFBP2 and IGFBP4. This may not seem like a big deal if one is not using drugs to stimulate IGF-1 synthesis, but IGF-1 levels are naturally stimulated through acts like stretching, and even natural testosterone/GH increases. All of these things normally accompany workouts (if you know what you're doing), which is the best time to take insulin. So by having all of the free IGF-1 bound by IGFBP3s' evil siblings, much of the anabolic effect of insulin is lost! Since T3 (triiodothyronine) is the main culprit, does that mean that T4 (tetraiodothyronine) can be used with no detrimental effect? NO, because T4 is mostly effective by converting to T3, which leaves you with the same problem. In fact, T4 could very well do the same thing. So if you want to maximize the anabolic effectiveness of insulin while minimizing bodyfat accumulation, use another fat burner and leave the thyroid alone.
INSULIN AND CREATINE
These compounds may have an anti-synergistic effect on each other, meaning that the combined effect is less than the sum of the individual effects. This possibility exists due to both components' ability to store water in muscle cells. If only a certain amount of water can be stored in the cells through each mechanism of action, then the anti-synergistic condition would exist. Although this condition is unlikely, it is worth mentioning for future experimentation purposes (lab rats know where to contact me). One definite advantage of this combination is that creatine is best absorbed by the muscles when insulin serum levels are high, insuring maximum effectiveness. BTW-if one is not doing something as fundamental as using creatine, there is no way they should be using insulin (so basically insulin use requires creatine use).
INSULIN AND HCA
Getting straight to the point, unless you are a moron and are eating fat during insulin use, or you have crappy insulin sensitivity, HCA is the second most effective fat gain inhibitor next to clenbuterol (which is only more effective due to its' ridiculously long half life). Hydroxy Citric Acid (HCA) is the main ingredient in Citrimax, and is a bargain in terms of its': relative effectiveness (when using insulin), cost (cheap, cheap, cheap), and availability. It works by inhibiting an enzyme called ATP citrate ly(s)ase (ACL), which basically converts ingested carbs to fat (which insulin promptly stores). This is normally NOT a big deal since ACL levels are normally low in most humans. However, insulin drastically increases ACL levels (which should make sense based on what you now know about insulin) accounting for most of the, responsible use, fat gain associated with insulin use. This is the most exciting find since the discovery of insulin as an anabolic! Using insulin and not gaining fat while gaining muscle? What a concept! Although I don't like to go into the details of use directly, I believe it is warranted here. 500-750mgs HCA should be taken with or within half an hour after the insulin shot. The usually recommended 250mgs is ineffective in dealing with the drastic increase in ACL levels. The HCA is taken with the shot because both start to work on about one half hour, so the HCA can begin to be effective at the same time that insulin is trying to increase ACL levels. This regimen (only 3X500mgs HCA) prevented fat gain during a day when I used 3 separate insulin shots! To make things even better there is a mild glycogen storage property associated with HCA use. Since ingested carbs cannot be converted to, or stored as, fat, they are generally stored (due to insulin) as glycogen in muscle giving the user a mild but noticeable pump (similar to the first day of creatine use). To end this portion of the list, I give HCA my highest recommendation as the number 1 supplement to use with insulin!
INSULIN AND FLAX SEED OIL
Short and sweet. Don't use flax seed oil with insulin, because it is fat and *will* be stored. The fat storage rules totally change when insulin is involved (I even avoid vitamin E capsules because mine are oil based).
INSULIN AND CLENBUTEROL UPDATE
This may look like an ideal combination at first, but research has shown why my muscle gains with this combo were minimal. Clen reduces insulin sensitivity, which means that insulin will have a much harder time doing its' anabolic job on muscle tissue. In addition to storing amino acids as muscle, insulin also stores carbs in muscle (which gives a very "full" look to the muscles), which reduced insulin sensitivity also hinders. This is also combined with the fact that clen reduces Glut-4 transporters (which allow glucose passage, and subsequent storage, into muscle) in skeletal muscle which probably accounts for clens' ability to reduce muscle glycogen concentration. On a lighter note, the fat burning effects of clen are potentiated by aspirin and caffeine (through personal experience) but still die off after a few weeks. Overall the only time I would recommend this combination occurs when coming off a cycle and every bit of anabolism is needed, otherwise the two drugs have a bad effect (from an anabolic standpoint) on each other.
SIMPLE TIPS TO MAXIMIZE ANABOLISM AND MINIMIZE FAT GAIN WITH INSULIN USE
-USE HCA
- use testosterone enhancing compounds to increase hepatic IGF-1 production
- only use insulin first thing in the morning or during/after workouts
- don't consume *any* fat 2 hours before (due to digestion time) or one hour after (due to induced enzyme activity) insulin use
- stretch to locally increase IGF-1 levels
- continually eat protein spread over the 4-5 hour duration of insulin activity
Finally, my favorite tip from Docroid: (I) use one shot of insulin just before a one hour workout and another shot two hours after the first. This creates synergism between the activity of the two shots by the later shot increasing in activity at the same time as the first shot decreases in activity, giving one a steady high insulin level at the most important time for anabolism! The only time I can say that I have seen dramatic results from insulin use (in terms of muscle anabolism) occurs when I do this "technique". HOWEVER, this is *very* tricky, in terms of serum glucose levels, even for seasoned insulin users. After using for a while, one can get used to the "feel" of insulin, blood sugar crashes, feeding times etc. but things change when one has a high level of insulin for 3-4 hours straight. I've had to eat every hour for three hours during one of my first attempts at this technique, but every two hours some other attempts. This is the only time I don't feel secure with my own insulin use. It's actually a good thing I can now recognize what a blood sugar crash feels like or I'd probably be dead due to this technique. I don't recommend this technique to anyone (and if that's not a big deal to you, just remember who is writing this) but if you feel like using it, make sure that you have had a couple of, (horrible) insulin induced, serum glucose crashes so you can recognize the early warning signs for when you have them (and you *will* have them).
bmf2
I tend to agree with iced. I have used the combo and wasn't aware that there was any downside, in fact I can't say I ever considered whether one would increase or reduce the effectiveness of the combo. I generally use clen near the end of a cycle and I just use insulin post workout.
Similar threads
