Eating for recovery before bed..Facts vs Myths (lets debate)

[halfwit]

I want to state that I recall seeing similar flaws in many studies where the researchers indeed provide poor control. The fault actually lies with the peer groups that enables such studies to be allowed without first providing a disclaimer of such. This extends into so many areas of science, it's not even funny.

With that said, I do want to add that for catabolism to occur, the body must be out of sufficient energy AND building blocks (macronutrients) for repair during sleep. As the liver stores glycogen before we go into a fasted state, we have energy reserves covered (this is a VERY important concept as it's why we don't die from hypoglycemia in our sleep) on top of the ability to tap into body fat stores. For de novo gluconeogenesis to occur, there must be a depletion of both glycogen and reserves in order to destroy muscle for energy. (think keto dieting with insufficient fat intake)

Please don't make my tired butt cite a reference.

I enjoy a healthy debate, and I ALWAYS love learning. In this case, unfortunately we have to go by anecdotal evidence as I too have yet to see a direct casual relationship between AA absorption and actual hypertrophic response/recovery. I can state from experience however, that the slower digesting proteins do provide a better measure of satiety, which helps keep those hunger pangs at bay, especially if we awaken in the middle of the night. I like to think it provides a measure of "protection" for my hard-earned muscle mass, but I can't prove it.

My .02 modest (I'm a hobbyist that loves the lifestyle, my research skills come purely from an entirely different field ) cents.

 

[.Vision.]

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Protein ingestion before sleep improves postexercise overnight recovery

Res PT, Groen B, Pennings B, Beelen M, Wallis GA, Gusen AP, Senden JMG, & van Loon LJC

Journal Title (Medline/Pubmed accepted abbreviation): Med. Sci. Sports Exerc.
Year: 2012
Volume: 44
Issue: 8
Page numbers: 1560-1569
doi: 10.1249/MSS.0b013e31824cc363
Summary of background and research design:
Background: Resistance training stimulates both protein synthesis and protein breakdown and, in the presence of adequate protein, net protein synthesis occurs. The result is an increase in muscle strength and size. It is known that a large amount of recovery and protein rebuilding occurs during sleep. It is unknown if protein ingestion immediately before sleep (in addition to a post-workout protein supplement) aids further in the development of muscle size and strength.

Hypothesis: Consumption of protein before bed will increase concentrations of amino acids in the blood and increase muscle protein synthesis during sleep.

Subjects: Recreationally active men (n = 15), age about 21-24 y

Experimental design: randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study

Treatments:
Protein – 450 g (about 2 cups) water with 40 g of isotopically labeled casein + strawberry flavor and artificial sweetener
Placebo- the same beverage without the protein (no calories)

Protocol: Before the study, the participants were evaluated for body composition including whole body fat percentage and percent fat in the trunk and legs. They were familiarized with the proper technique for leg press and leg extension. One repetition maxima were determined for each participant for both exercises. On the day of the test, each participant followed a standardized diet. At 4:30 pm, they reported to the laboratory and at 4:45 they consumed a standardized dinner. At 6:30 pm, the participants received a primed infusion of isotopically labeled phenylalanine (an amino acid whose fate can be traced) for analysis of protein turnover. A basal blood sample was also collected. A primed continuous tracer (isotopically labeled phenylalanine and tyrosine) was then started at 7:00 pm, also for determination of protein turnover. The participants rested for one hour, then began exercising at 8:00 pm. They performed a specific lifting routine focusing on the lower body. At the end of the exercise (9:00 pm), another blood sample was collected. They then consumed a post-workout beverage that consisted of 60 g carbohydrates and 20 g whey protein. At 11:30 pm, a muscle biopsy was acquired from the quadriceps, after which the participant consumed one of the test beverages (protein or placebo). The participant slept between 12:00 midnight and 7:00 am, when a second muscle biopsy was acquired. Blood samples were collected throughout the entire laboratory stay (18 total samples) and were analyzed for plasma concentrations of glucose, insulin, amino acids, and isotopically labeled phenylalanine and tyrosine. Rate of amino acid appearance and disappearance were calculated, from which fractional synthesis rate (FSR) of mixed muscle protein was then estimated.
Summary of research findings:
Plasma glucose concentrations during the night were 5.1 ± 0.1 mM in the protein group and 5.2 ± 0.1 mM in the placebo group (not statistically different).
Plasma insulin concentrations were significantly higher 15 and 30 min after beverage consumption (p < 0.01) but did not differ at other time points throughout the night.
Essential amino acid concentrations in the plasma increased after the recovery beverage (consumed immediately after exercise) in both groups, and returned to baseline within 2.5 hours.
After consumption of the test beverage, those in the protein group exhibited elevated essential amino acid concentrations at every time point throughout the night compared to the placebo group. During the night, maximum essential amino acid concentrations were about 1750 ± 150 µM in the protein group compared to about 700 µM for the placebo group.
The rate of protein appearance in muscle tissue was significantly greater in the protein group vs. the placebo group. In fact, 50% ± 2% of the protein in the beverage was observed circulating the system as amino acids during the 7.5 hour period and was therefore available for protein synthesis.
The fractional synthesis rate (FSR), or rate of muscle protein synthesis, was about 22% greater in the group that consumed protein before bed vs. the placebo (p = 0.05).
The increase in FSR, in addition to a decrease in protein breakdown in the protein group, led to a net protein balance of +61 ± 5 in the protein group and -11 ± 6 in the placebo group.

Key practice applications: Protein ingestion before sleep was effectively absorbed and metabolized and led to significantly greater net protein synthesis compared to a calorie-free control. These data suggest that consumption of protein before bedtime will lead to a greater rate of recovery and a greater amount of protein synthesis, thereby resulting in greater strength and muscle size.

Limitations: The baseline diet in both groups contained about 1.2 g/kg body weight of protein. The protein treatment group received 40 g more protein than did the placebo group. Thus, because protein intake was not equalized between the two groups, it is not clear if the benefits observed in the protein group were specifically due to the timing of protein ingestion before bed or just the result of a higher overall protein intake. An improvement in the design would have been to equalize the protein intakes between groups, but have the placebo group take the 40-g protein treatment at a different time during the day.

Key search terms for this article (5-7 terms): protein, timing, before bed, sleep, casein, recovery
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[Megatron28]

Im merely trying to share with the community, but your sassy "your wrong comments are rather interfering with my attempts to share with the forum"
It seems that your making assumptions about my character creating a false perception of things, clearly because they do not meet your approval, but that's ok Mr.RippedGoogle..
You would argue with a fence post here if you could...

Vision: if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Don't ask for a debate and then start calling people names when someone actually challenges you with a well constructed argument. Very immature of you.

 

[halfwit]

An improvement in the design would have been to equalize the protein intakes between groups, but have the placebo group take the 40-g protein treatment at a different time during the day.

At least they acknowledge that it's flawed. I'd also like to point out that the diet was only standardized on the day of the test.

 

[Dreaded Pirate Roberts]

I always ate before bed and woke up in the middle of the night and ate again for the best results.

 

[Megatron28]

I always ate before bed and woke up in the middle of the night and ate again for the best results.

Were your daily macros the same when you didn't do that? If they were the same, how significant of a difference did you personally observe? Was it quantifiable?

 

[Hypnotix]

Were your daily macros the same when you didn't do that? If they were the same, how significant of a difference did you personally observe? Was it quantifiable?

This.

The variables at play as usual, are outrageous. Lots of hearsay, lots of opinions, inapplicable facts, etc. It's really hard to read through the BS of some studies. Some control's are just not relevant to what someone of our lifestyle adheres to, and therefore become useless to us altogether.. A study can say it works, but was it utilized in a fashion that we would utilize it? Were the individuals consuming enough calories to stimulate growth in their daily intake anyway?

The only way to truly determine whether something like this works, is to see if it works for YOU. If it does, it MAY work for somebody else or it may not.

Is the slow digesting protein necessary if we are in a consistent caloric surplus day to day regardless?

Is it just an easy way to add in some calories right before bed to secure a surplus? Does it have to be a protein, and why if we've already gotten enough earlier in the day?

--------------------------

I would just assume we should maintain a balanced distribution of our calories throughout the day, and eat when we're hungry. Day to day if we're in a deficit we'll lose, surplus, we'll gain. Macro distribution to ensure desired results?

I'm not a professional, and I'm not well versed in anatomy, bio-mech, chemistry, or nutrition even, but I think we're trying to come up with an average for something that has astronomical amounts of possible outcomes. We can focus a little more on ourselves as individuals and determine what works for us.. and use others "opinions", clinical studies, and personal experiences as things to play around with to make our journey a little easier. Some things may not work.. and so you would eliminate that from your plan and do something else.

Casein Shakes, Cottage Cheese, and Greek Yogurt all cause bloat and gastrointestinal distress for me. My personal experience is that I don't sleep well when I feel like shit from eating these things and so it's counterproductive for me to eat them right before bed, or at all! So I won't eat them unless that's all that is available.

I like steak before bed. Tastes better than all the other shit anyhow.

 

[bigben66]

Fantastic debate, and I'm sure both plans of attack have their merits....

In the last year I have started taking casein before bedtime, mainly for satiety reasons as binging during the night was slowly becoming a habit. Especially with the inclusion of cardio in my training programme. I also like the full feeling I have in my muscles on waking when I do use casein.

Having said that, meeting my daily macronutrient goal has and always will be my first priority. I leave nothing to chance.

I just factor my pre-bed casein into these requirements and make this fit into my daily (and weekly) numbers...

With regard to this debate, I'd say Zilla's point is one that members should take on board. What you do and don't have before bed is inconsequential if you aren't keeping tabs on all your other intake. NEVER look at casein as your 'get out of jail free' card thinking it will do all the hard work for you while you sleep, your daily intake should mean that you don't have to do this.

However, for those of us that DO track all our macros, and more importantly in my eyes, are tracking macros and running a calorie deficit. Then casein is a great way of covering the satiety angle.

I'm currently 15 weeks out from a show, running a carb-cycling diet with low days, mid days and high days (still only 300g carbs)...

My hunger pangs hit hard, and often.

I need to know that when I go to bed, I'm not going to be craving foods if I wake (which I do, on Tren). Casein helps massively with this.

If however I was bulking, and carbs and proteins were in abundance - the necessity for casein diminishes... as the numbers taken on board during the day are more than adequate to address not only satiety, but recovery!

In conclusion. For those of us cutting and running a calorie deficit, casein use pre-bedtime definitely has it's merits.
However, if you are running maintenance diets or bulking, I'd say this becomes less important.

The simple answer: Try it for yourself for a short while, monitor how you feel, and make your own decisions based on how you feel.

I really don't think this is a 'one size fits all' debate.

My 02 cents

BigBen

 

[Ziegler]

I always ate before bed and woke up in the middle of the night and ate again for the best results.

Aw the good ole days. I used to be able to eat a ton of food right before bed then get up in the middle of the night and eat 3 or 4 pb&j's wash it down with a giant glass of milk and pass out. Nowadays if I tried that I would have heart burn all night and wake up 10 pounds fatter.

 

[.Vision.]

Vision: if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Don't ask for a debate and then start calling people names when someone actually challenges you with a well constructed argument. Very immature of you.

Mega, his approach on how we came off was a little sassy so do me a favor and shut the hell up... you have never once agreed with me and personally I don't give a shit this isn't your debate so stay the hell out of it, it was he that came off immature making unnecessary statements about my education..

but him and I squared it away... so dont be that guy in the back running your mouth.... your always out to say something about what ever I say... so stay out of this one and sit it out...cool?

have a great day!

 

[soldier74]

I will say that for a guy who never knew any better, aka still learning, I will add casein shake to my daily regimen pre bed. I agree that I need to keep my daily nutrients right and this will just be an added benefit. I never really wake up in mid sleep to eat. But I also never knew my body was snacking on itself while I slept. I guess basically I dont see the harm in adding this to my daily diet. Like suggested above I'll do it for a while and see if it's worth the money spent. Good info, thanks again!!

 

[Megatron28]

Mega, his approach on how we came off was a little sassy so do me a favor and shut the hell up... you have never once agreed with me and personally I don't give a shit this isn't your debate so stay the hell out of it, it was he that came off immature making unnecessary statements about my education..

but him and I squared it away... so dont be that guy in the back running your mouth.... your always out to say something about what ever I say... so stay out of this one and sit it out...cool?

have a great day!

No. Not cool. Sounds like you need a little Time Out to calm down and think about your behavior.

 

[Teutonic]

DPR...me too..when I m training hard. Can t sleep when I m hungry. And when I m running more than trt and pounding 4 or 5 w o s a week...I ALWAY S make sure there s 3-4 peeled boiled egg s within reach...I think I actually sleep eat as I don t get good mileage.

However when I m not training like when in NYC w little T or when I deploy and we basically ride...and ride..stand around only to ride..my hunger goes down drastically.

I believe the original intent of the thread was good. And there was some good info but to empirically call it absolute truth...??? I do not debate this stuff(aas and diet and training) with you pro s. I know my limits. And my hypocrisy only goes so far. I ll fall back on I m good to go where I m at, what it takes w re to light gearage...caloric intake and training to maintain my look with function being as important as form. (size) I wear 32 pd s of "stuff" and got to MOVE..

Stat s don t lie..statisticians do and almost any study can prove any outcome by both the question s asked or whose asked what and how...whatever..is presented to the study group.
It s a slippery slope to paint urself into a corner in these here parts and call out someone for a debate...I ve ALWAY S LOST.... AND BADLY. Way to many variables and last years nutrients are next years cancer causing agents.
..ya ll s so smart..make s me crawfish at times. ( that mean s back up)...down here fella s..

(700 level stats class...1 of 3 B s I made in my Masters program . Tough stuff..that only solidified my Dad s (rip) warning of question everything you don t KNOW has worked for you or you ve seen....)

Smart redneck F4 pilot

 

[Roush]

No. Not cool. Sounds like you need a little Time Out to calm down and think about your behavior.

lol,, give me a break. Arguing or debating with Mr. Ripped is 'bad behavior' and a contributing member of this community gets banned cause a mod does not like it.. whatever

 

[Milton]

What was the point of this thread?

 

[Megatron28]

lol,, give me a break. Arguing or debating with Mr. Ripped is 'bad behavior' and a contributing member of this community gets banned cause a mod does not like it.. whatever

It isn't about debating with one another. It is about stooping to name calling and personal insults. Debates can and should be done in a cordial, respectful manner.

I only gave him a 24 hour time out to reflect on things. This isn't the first time he has behaved like this and warned about it.

 

[Roush]

What was the point of this thread?

edit -- no point in comment

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

What was the point of this thread?

Good question Milton.
I think its important to keep things simple for people reading this thread so everyone knows what the take home point is after all these scientific mumbo jumbo posts
Here is how I see things:

- Casein doesn't have any magical properties compared to other protein sources when it comes to aiding in recovery.

- Taking casein, or any other protein source, just before bed doesn't have any magical advantage compared to other protein timing strategies IF your overall daily intake was good to begin with.

- If you take casein to help you feel full (like HW, Ben and I do), or you enjoy the taste, or you see it as just another good quality source of protein....that's perfectly fine.

It isn't about debating with one another. It is about stooping to name calling and personal insults. Debates can and should be done in a cordial, respectful manner.

I only gave him a 24 hour time out to reflect on things. This isn't the first time he has behaved like this and warned about it.

Roush has a 24/7 hard on for me that apparently isn't going away anytime soon so I don't see any reason for you to need to justify yourself to him Mega.

 

[Teutonic]

With great minds and same minds containing lots of both knowledge and experience..augment the --it out of hormones... u get what we had here today. I don t like anymore than you....but when u ask for it...you get it.

Got s to respect the au tho ri tie.

 

[Roush]

It isn't about debating with one another. It is about stooping to name calling and personal insults. Debates can and should be done in a cordial, respectful manner.

I only gave him a 24 hour time out to reflect on things. This isn't the first time he has behaved like this and warned about it.

well under his name it says "banned" not time out,, anyway.
I agree, to a certain degree. But if that is completely true, i.e., 'not resorting to name calling' in a debate then Ripped would of been banned a long time ago, being he has never really entered a debate in any cordial manner , rather has argued and stooped to name calling and personal insults to pretty much anyone who disagrees or questions him (if resorting to calling 'newbs' with little understanding in AAS 'stupid' and 'dumb'),, and over the years I've seen dudes banned for , oh geezz, 'name calling', just because the 'name calling' is directed and Mr.not so rippedzilla . ever gave him a warning for resorting to the same name calling in a debate (or do you usually just join along).

not that it matters, just pointing out a double standard, I can give a fuk less if full grown men resort to some name calling in a debate, big F'n deal, no need to ban anyone for that (we are not kids in elementary school) BUT to ban one , and not both the assholes for name calling in a debate, does not make sense. unless there is some buddy buddy dick sucking going on here. just an observation.