Effect of lower versus higher doses of tamoxifen on htpa

[jcp2]

JCP2, don't get me wrong, it was not meant to bash Nelson, but he leaves us no choice.

nah, i wasn't really talking about you or LI, it is just that bashing NM seems to be the popular thing these days. Nelson comes off hard, but we discussed post cycle therapy (pct) and his supps a few months ago, and never did he tell me not to take clomid with it. We decided that i would run a smaller dose than I normally do, but i still took it, and it worked well with his products. I don't beleive in adex post cycle, we were discussing that in one of the stickies but he must not have gone back to check it, and my reply. But like i said, people here want to talk about real world results, but when that doesn't sound good anymore, they have to switch to studies. Like i have always said, the best thing to do is take a little knowledge from everyone, we are not going to all agree.

 

[arby]

Plus; I have recommened A-dex. Again, the fact that you are unaware of it, does not mean it isn't so.

Firstly, arimidex is not a SERM. Secondly, where did he say or imply or in any way lead you to believe that he was unaware of your recommendation of a-dex? Does it take that much to understand that his not following up on your off-topic aside was because it was just that?

(And if you try to relate a-dex to nolvadex or clomid by pulling a semantic trick and classifying them as "anti-e"s, let me remind you that the more proper term for a-dex would be "anti-aromatase." In either sense they different drugs used for different things.)

I brought up the study in question. You made a personal attack. Do you see the difference?

Your exact words at the beginning of your factual dissertation on the study in question, punctuation intact: "WHAT STUDY WERE YOU READING???!"
Your exact words at the end of said dissertation: "Sometimes people hear what they want to hear, see what they want to see, and believe what they want to believe."

There's really no reason at this point to even try to suggest that you weren't insulting his intelligence. And honestly, I can't bring myself to believe that anyone would buy that.

I really hope by now that it's become obvious to everyone reading this thread just how much of a spin-master you are. I guess it goes with the territory, though.

And just so we're clear, this particular (admittedly personal) attack was brought on entirely by your own arrogance, and it's completely independent of any of your views on the subject of the thread. Which is too bad because you might have had something worthwhile to say; it's hard to tell with all the insolent crap you preface whatever it is you have to say with. And quite honestly, I stop paying attention when I see something like that crop up.

But my problem is that I know that some don't-- and I just know that you are selling some people on to your views with your craftiness. My point is this: correct or not, if your point is cogent enough to convince or prove something to someone, then that should be enough-- and your willingness to partake in "subtle" (to an autist) personal attacks and lie about them a day after should be unneccessary and ultimately only take away from your credibility.

RB

 

[Nelson Montana]

Firstly, arimidex is not a SERM.

....................................



TRUE. MY POINT IS THAT THEY ERVE SIMILAR PURPOSES AN AN ANTI AROMATASE IS PREFERABLE TO AN E- ANTAGONIST.

.......................................

Secondly, where did he say or imply or in any way lead you to believe that he was unaware of your recommendation of a-dex? Does it take that much to understand that his not following up on your off-topic aside was because it was just that?



......................................


FAIR ENOUGH. IT'S SPLITTING HAIRS BUT FAIR ENOUGH.



.....................................

(And if you try to relate a-dex to nolvadex or clomid by pulling a semantic trick and classifying them as "anti-e"s, let me remind you that the more proper term for a-dex would be "anti-aromatase." In either sense they different drugs used for different things.)



......................................

SEMANTIC TRICK??? YOU'RE A LITTLE PARANOID. BUT YES, THEY ARE PRESCRIBED FOR DIFFERENT THINGS. A-DEX TO COMBAT ESTROGEN. NOLVADEX FOR BREST CANCER. AND CLOMID IS A FEMALE FERTILITY DRUG. THEY'RE USAGE FOR HPTA RESTORATION ARE LARGELY ANECDOTAL. YEAH, I KNOW. SOME DOCS WILL PRESRIBE FOR SUCH A PURPOSE, MANY WON'T FOR SEVERAL REASONS.


......................................





Your exact words at the beginning of your factual dissertation on the study in question, punctuation intact: "WHAT STUDY WERE YOU READING???!"
Your exact words at the end of said dissertation: "Sometimes people hear what they want to hear, see what they want to see, and believe what they want to believe."



......................................


YEP. I THNK MY POINT WAS CLEAR.



.......................................

There's really no reason at this point to even try to suggest that you weren't insulting his intelligence. And honestly, I can't bring myself to believe that anyone would buy that.


.....................................


YOU CAN BUY WHATEVER YOU WANT. I ADDRESSED THE POST AND MADE A COGENT POINT WHICH B THE WAT NO ONE ADDRESSED. INSTEAD, IT GOT PERSONAL.
NO BIGGIE. IT'S A MESSAGE BOARD.

......................................


I really hope by now that it's become obvious to everyone reading this thread just how much of a spin-master you are. I guess it goes with the territory, though.


.....................................

IF BY "SPIN MASTER' YOU MEAN ONE WHO PRESENTS LOGIC THAT CAN'T BE REFUTED, THEN I GUESS I'M GUILTY.


.....................................

And just so we're clear, this particular (admittedly personal) attack was brought on entirely by your own arrogance, and it's completely independent of any of your views on the subject of the thread. Which is too bad because you might have had something worthwhile to say; it's hard to tell with all the insolent crap you preface whatever it is you have to say with. And quite honestly, I stop paying attention when I see something like that crop up.

But my problem is that I know that some don't-- and I just know that you are selling some people on to your views with your craftiness. My point is this: correct or not, if your point is cogent enough to convince or prove something to someone, then that should be enough-- and your willingness to partake in "subtle" (to an autist) personal attacks and lie about them a day after should be unneccessary and ultimately only take away from your credibility.
.....................................


WELL, YOU CAN TAKE IT THAT WAY BUT YOU'RE WRONG. YOU'RE PROJECTING SOMETHING ON ME BASED ON WHAT OCCURED VIA YOUR PERCEPTION OF IT.
RB

 

[bluewizz]

u know what i hate the most, important topics end up revolving around the name nelson montana. who the hell is he anyways? Hey nelly are you a protein shake/books salesman who needs alot of attention so you can go to bed every night feeling special?

nelly do you feel special becasue your ideas are original?

 

[arby]

SEMANTIC TRICK??? YOU'RE A LITTLE PARANOID. BUT YES, THEY ARE PRESCRIBED FOR DIFFERENT THINGS. A-DEX TO COMBAT ESTROGEN. NOLVADEX FOR BREST CANCER. AND CLOMID IS A FEMALE FERTILITY DRUG. THEY'RE USAGE FOR HPTA RESTORATION ARE LARGELY ANECDOTAL. YEAH, I KNOW. SOME DOCS WILL PRESRIBE FOR SUCH A PURPOSE, MANY WON'T FOR SEVERAL REASONS.

Forget semantic tricks; now you're just putting words in my mouth. I didn't say "prescribed," and for a reason. Many drugs are indicated in their initial PI for one purpose and have "side effects" that serve others. Propecia for example came out of Proscar. And Viagra came out of BP-lowering medication research.

There is no conclusive research in either case for any SERM's. If there were these drugs would go the way of Proscar. But there is anecdotal evidence of a secondary function, and the way you frame your particular anecdotal evidence makes it come off as more than that. That irritates me-- for the reason I mentioned in the post above-- and for the reason LS mentioned. Your delivery leaves a lot to be desired and could hurt someone.

By the way, before you come back with the converse argument of the above, let me remind you that, unless you are a qualified pharmacologist (no, "bodybuilding author" doesn't qualify), I would refrain from attempting to explain away how the fact that these drugs haven't gone the way of Proscar is because they're not at all similar to it (in terms of having a secondary function); doing so would signify a conclusion and I've already mentioned that there is no conclusive research in this area.

YOU CAN BUY WHATEVER YOU WANT. I ADDRESSED THE POST AND MADE A COGENT POINT WHICH B THE WAT NO ONE ADDRESSED. INSTEAD, IT GOT PERSONAL.
NO BIGGIE. IT'S A MESSAGE BOARD.

"It" didn't get personal, you made it personal; it's an important distinction, especially when you come back a day later and blame someone else for making it personal. Of course it's "no biggie" now that you got called out, but moving on...

IF BY "SPIN MASTER' YOU MEAN ONE WHO PRESENTS LOGIC THAT CAN'T BE REFUTED, THEN I GUESS I'M GUILTY.

Let me ask you something: do you really think you're getting away with chopping up one paragraph into three separate sentences and refuting each without context?

WELL, YOU CAN TAKE IT THAT WAY BUT YOU'RE WRONG. YOU'RE PROJECTING SOMETHING ON ME BASED ON WHAT OCCURED VIA YOUR PERCEPTION OF IT.

Wasn't that the point?

RB

 

[Bruce Banner]

Nelson, I would really appreciate if You could give an example how a proper post cycle therapy (pct) should look like.

I know that you dont like Clomid, Nolvadex and so on. What and why should we use in your opinion?

No intention to criticize, just curious.

/Bruce

 

[lartinos]

People if you can't see Nelson is nothing more then a salesman, use n-dex next time you come off if you were suckered into using these close to worthless supps. It is is easy to fall for his shit because he is a talented con-artist.

 

[moresize2]

VERY SIMPLE SOLUTION..TRY post cycle therapy (pct) WITH SERM AND TRY post cycle therapy (pct) WITHOUT (POST CYCLE)

i have tried post cycle therapy (pct) with nolvadex and i tried post cycle therapy (pct) with only (post cycle)

i felt better with (post cycle) (i have no blood test)

i never lost my sex drive....
i did not lose my gains....

my cycle never goes past 8 weeks and only 500mg test

this may not apply to guys who run more gear and longer cycles

 

[r3ver3nd]

I have asked Nelson many questions before on his forum, and never has he pressed his product on me. As I suggested the use of other things (the topic I think of comes to mind was an Anti-E discussion.)

He takes his time to provide many articles, and things to GET PEOPLES MINDS WORKING AND THINKING FOR THEMSELVES. If your the type of person to jump on the wagon and hate anything, then you are destint for failure.

Do your own research, make your own comments, draw your own conclusions from educated people or your own experience/research. Nelson's views are just that, his views. He may not agree with everyone, but some of the greatest people in history went against the grain.

Now obviously my experience is minimal to disagree or agree with anything he or a doctor may advise me. So I don't agrue, I draw my own conclusions given the facts.

 

[Nelson Montana]

People if you can't see Nelson is nothing more then a salesman, use n-dex next time you come off if you were suckered into using these close to worthless supps. It is is easy to fall for his shit because he is a talented con-artist.

There are essentially 3 types of worthless opinions.

1...An opinion without any experience regarding the subject matter.

2...An opinion that does not provide a valid argument to back it up.

3...An opinion that doesn't address the issue and instead attacks the person making it.


Congratulations latino: You fit into all 3 catagories.

 

[r3ver3nd]

People if you can't see Nelson is nothing more then a salesman, use n-dex next time you come off if you were suckered into using these close to worthless supps. It is is easy to fall for his shit because he is a talented con-artist.

So because he has created an alternative supplement for Post Cycle Treatment, thats OTC, he's a bad guy?

I am a little new to the game, but I dont recall Nelson claiming Post Cycle was FAR GREATER than convential methods of PCT....he's simply offered an alternative. At least, thats the way I see it.

 

[Mudge]

I could swear I've seen a study showing 3x higher LH levels with SERM treatment vs non.

 

[Nelson Montana]

VERY SIMPLE SOLUTION..TRY post cycle therapy (pct) WITH SERM AND TRY post cycle therapy (pct) WITHOUT (POST CYCLE)

i have tried post cycle therapy (pct) with nolvadex and i tried post cycle therapy (pct) with only (post cycle)

i felt better with (post cycle) (i have no blood test)

i never lost my sex drive....
i did not lose my gains....

my cycle never goes past 8 weeks and only 500mg test

this may not apply to guys who run more gear and longer cycles

Great to hear it bro. And it's good to hear from someone with actual experience.

I would reiterate though, for heavy cycles, a small amount of HCG may be necssesary and a small amount A-dex may be needed during and slightly following the cycle in conjunction with the " POST -CYCLE."



Thanks r3v. But I'm aware this stuff comes with the territory. Some people are naturally intolerant of whatever they're unfamiliar with, or what doesn't coincide with their preconceptions and prejudices. All it takes is one person to make an accusation and dozens will follow suit. They're the ones who can't think for themselves so they try to diminish what they don't want to learn about.

Thankfully some people have a mind of their own.