Estrogen Rebound

[jcp2]

can someone please explain this too me. How does your estrogen levels stay high after a cycle. I don't get it, where is it coming from, i constantly here about this, but have never seen any evidence to say it reallly happens. How does your body just start making excessive estrogen. This just sounds like one of the gear fairy tales, but i constantly here people referring to it.

 

[Mudge]

Silverback had 5x normal estrogen for what, 11 months?

 

[jcp2]

That is extremely fucked up, but what causes this.

 

[rpwhit777]

I am giong through a similar problem now..... I've been off for 6 weeks ran a post cycle therapy (pct) been off that for 2 weeks now and a couple days agao I started to notice my nipples were getting puffy.( started nolva/ switched to Liquidex We'll see how it goes???) ....Kinda pisses me off because I had planned on getting back on in a week..... I'd like to know how this happens as well???????

 

[Mudge]

Why liquidex though, do you think you still have aromatase action going on?

 

[rpwhit777]

Why liquidex though, do you think you still have aromatase action going on?

Don't know why exactly just sorta used some logic and figured if I dint have puffy nips before and now in the last couple of days I do , there must be something happening...... What's your thoughts on this?????

Sorry to sidetrack your thread JCP2!!!!

 

[Mudge]

I'd stick to nolvadex, I dont think anything past 1-2 weeks post cycle there would be a need for arimidex.

 

[rpwhit777]

Cool bro thanks... I'll start it back up!!!!

 

[DADAWG]

I'd stick to nolvadex, I dont think anything past 1-2 weeks post cycle there would be a need for arimidex.

i agree

 

[ROAD DOG]

I think the reason estrogen levels get so high is because your body tries to maintain a certain test/estrogen ratio.The more test you put in your body,the more estrogen your body produces to maintain that same ratio.When you quit taking test,your body still has all that excess estrogen floating around,then the ratio gets out of balance.That's just my theory.

 

[Mudge]

I think the reason estrogen levels get so high is because your body tries to maintain a certain test/estrogen ratio.

Thats no theory, thats known science. The problem is, why does it hang around so long post cycle even if test levels are on the floor?

 

[hhajdo]

It is usually low post cycle since testosterone is suppressed.

"...Plus, post cycle there is not an elevated level of estrogen for anti-estrogens to block, as testosterone (now suppressed) is a major substrate used for the synthesis of estrogens in men. Serum estrogen levels will actually be lower here as a result, not higher. Any estrogen rebound that occurs post-cycle likewise happens concurrently with a rebound in testosterone levels, not prior to it (note there is an imbalance in the ratio post cycle, but this is another topic altogether)..."

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/magazine/i7postcycle.html

 

[xtinct]

Thats no theory, thats known science. The problem is, why does it hang around so long post cycle even if test levels are on the floor?

I would guess that the very high levels of testosterone during a cycle cause an upregulation in aromatse production. As long as there are very high levels of test, this upregulation results in a more normal T/E ratio. After the cycle, test is very low but the level of aromatase does not decline as fast as test levels. Thus you are in a situation where every little bit of test in your body is much more likely to be converted into E.

 

[hhajdo]

E is definitely low post cycle, but T/E ratio can be lower than baseline.
Test can affect aromatase activity, but in this study the E increase was linearly dependent on the T dose (up to 600 mg of TE was administered) so it seems that aromatase activity wasn't affected....

"Serum total T, free T, and E2 levels measured during the last treatment week after the previous injection were linearly dependent on the T dose"

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/87/1/136

Another reason for lower T/E ratio post cycle could be aromatization of adrenal androgens...

 

[jcp2]

It is usually low post cycle since testosterone is suppressed.

"...Plus, post cycle there is not an elevated level of estrogen for anti-estrogens to block, as testosterone (now suppressed) is a major substrate used for the synthesis of estrogens in men. Serum estrogen levels will actually be lower here as a result, not higher. Any estrogen rebound that occurs post-cycle likewise happens concurrently with a rebound in testosterone levels, not prior to it (note there is an imbalance in the ratio post cycle, but this is another topic altogether)..."

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/magazine/i7postcycle.html

This is what i was thinking also, where can the estrogen be coming from, since i thought most estrogen in men comes from the conversion from test, and since their is very little to no test, thier cannot be any estrogen.

 

[ROAD DOG]

Your body is not producing more estrogen post cycle,you are just dealing with the excess that your body produced while you were on your cycle.Once you discontinue using test,you still have the same amount of estrogen floating around.I think the estrogen levels take longer to decline since it was produced by your body,as opposed to injecting test.

 

[jcp2]

Your body is not producing more estrogen post cycle,you are just dealing with the excess that your body produced while you were on your cycle.Once you discontinue using test,you still have the same amount of estrogen floating around.I think the estrogen levels take longer to decline since it was produced by your body,as opposed to injecting test.

This doesn't make sense. From what it looks like hhajdo is saying, if you are not producing test, thier is going to be very little estrogen, they are in correlation, I don't think the male body produces estrgogen directly.

 

[Jawbone]

hhajdo and JCP2,

Let me see if I have this right. Someone can have high E but little T many weeks post cycle so this must be occuring from the conv of adrenal andogens to E. Therefore, one needs to take HCG to keep the endo organ healthy(testis) and then a SERM to block the high E from the recent AAS.

If this is correct, Mudge reported that Silverback had 5X the E 11 months after his cycle. How can this be explained? I can only think that he needed more T to compete with the adrenal andogen for the aromatase enzyme. If the enzyme has more affinity for the adrenal androgen than T OR he needed an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) with his post cycle therapy (pct). Maybe all post cycle therapy (pct) should also have an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) with it too.
So a possible post cycle therapy (pct) would be:
last week of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) -HCG
weeks 2-3 HCG with a SERM
weeks 4-5 HCG with a SERM and AI
week 6 Aromatase inhibitor (AI) only


What do you guys think?

Make sense?

 

[hhajdo]

Both T & E are suppressed post cycle, but E is not suppressed as much as T (possibly because of aromatization of adrenal androgens which are not suppressed by AS)...

If you want to see some numbers, here's an abstract posted by Nandi12:

"The authors performed a similar study that went for 12 weeks (1), a cycle more like what the average Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) user employs.

At the end of the cycle, test dropped from 37 nmol/l to 5 nmol/l (compared to precycle baseline of 21 nmol/l).

Estradiol dropped from a cycle high of 0.25 nmol/l to a post cycle low of 0.04 nmol/l. Baseline pre cycle was 0.08 nmol/l. Baseline LH was 6.8 U/l while 12 weeks after the cycle ended LH had risen to 8.0 U/l while test was still depressed at 14.6 nmol/l compared to a precycle level of 21.8 nmol/l.

So post cycle estrogen fell to half its precycle value.


(1) Am J Sports Med 1987 Jul-Aug;15(4):357-61

Androgenic-anabolic steroid effects on serum thyroid, pituitary and steroid hormones in athletes.

Alen M, Rahkila P, Reinila M, Vihko R"


2 weeks of HCG should be sufficient.
There's no need for A.I. post cycle since E is low.

 

[Jawbone]

What about SERMs? Do you use them in your post cycle therapy (pct)? Or, based on this study, it would seem that they are not needed.

I am trying to find a reason why Silverback had high E 11 months post cycle. Maybe something is being left out. After all, this is third party info.