Evaluation of PCT - How do you approach?

[PabloA93]

Hi everybody

I am new to this game, and right now I am doing my first ever cycle. I am doing a 500mg Test E ew cycle for 12 weeks, and taking 0,5mg Adex EoD to manage estrogen. I am in week 7 right now and have gained around 11 pounds, and everything is good. Good pumps, feeling good, libido throughout the roof, good mood and not really feeling any sides (small pimples here and there is pretty much everything)

I have been doing a lot of research for months prior to starting my first cycle, and I am still researching and learning about the world of steroids, SERMS, endicrinology etc. One topic which there seems to be a lot of confusion about and a lot of different opinions on is how to approach the PCT. I thought I had my PCT sorted out before starting my cycle, but after further research it seems I need to change things. Initially the plan was to do a PCT of Nolva and HCG. After doing some extensive research I have found that it is not recommended by to use HCG during PCT since what it does is simply just mimicing LH which fools the Leydig cells into producing testosterone. This will suppress the body's own LH and FSH, and that is not what you want when you want to kickstart the HPTA. However, the usage of HCG during PCT is supported by evidence. Dr Michael Scally is a highly regarded fertility doctor who has carried out many studies on the male fertility recovery particularly after heavy steroids cycles. In over 100 patients, following this protocol, 100% were recovered back to normal levels after only 45 days.

I am really confused about how to approach my PCT now. I was going to do HCG and Nolva as PCT, but a lot of people on different boards do not advice to use HCG during PCT, while a famous protocol like Scally's Power PCT does and the effectiveness is backed up by evidence. I really do not want to mess up anything and be sure to recover completely.

How do you guys approach your PCT's? I have 15000iu of HCG (3x5000iu vials) and Nolva in hand. I want to have my PCT sorted out as soon as possible, it really is bothering me right now. I was thinking maybe to run 250iu HCG EoD for 10 days starting the day after the last pin of the test E to get the boys working again, while the system is clearing. Then 4 days later start my SERM treatment consisting of Nolva. I was thinking a 5 week protocol like: 40/40/20/20/20. What do you guys think, would this be a good PCT? What should the dose of the HCG during that bridge between cycle end and PCT start? I am reading a lot of different opinions on this one, but you wouldn't want to go too high and risk estrogen related sides. I am looking forward to hear from some more knowledgeable and wise people!




T.

 

[scorob777]

The power PCT uses HCG in the days leading up to PCT, then stops when the nolva and clomid start. One protocol is 1,000 IU/day for 10 days or so, and another is 2,000 IU EOD for 10 days.

My opinion is you should take the HCG on cycle to keep your boys humming along, take it in the gap between last shot and PCT start, then stop it when you start the nolva and clomid.

Also note I said nolva and clomid, your odds will be better if you combine the two.

 

[Nicky_eye_lids]

^^^^^^^Preaty much says it all, nolva and clomid during pct, hcg during your cycle and between the gap after your last test pin and pct, 20 days more or less.
If you scroll down you will see other related threads that may be of help. Let us know if you get any other sides.
Also, bloodworks, ive seen no mention of this in your post, have you done any labs? at 7 weeks you should be ready to do bloodworks to check all your pertinent levels. Any plans on donating blood?

 

[PabloA93]

@tankmanbob:
As far as I understand, the HCG is ran during the Power PCT, HCG day 1-16 along with Nolva and Clomid. Am I missing something?

Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other day.
Day 1-30 : Nolva 20mg/day; Clomid 100mg/day (50mg was taken twice per day)
Day 31-45 : Nolva 20mg/day

For next cycle, I will be doing HCG during the cycle. I have no Clomid in hand right now. I have a lot about the sides from Clomid, and people recovering just fine from only Nolva.

How would you do with HCG and Nolva? Specifically, when to run the HCG and what doses, and duration and dosages of Nolva. And isn't 1000iu/day really high? Specifically I am thinking about the likely spike in estrogen.

@nicky_eye_lids:

I didn't do any labs before starting my cycle (I know I should have done, and will deffo do it next time around). So I am not sure if it will make any sense to do it now, without anything to compare with?

Yeh, that's a lot of questions in once . I just want to get things sorted out.

 

[scorob777]

Depending on the dosage and ester I'd plan how many days to pause between last shot and nolva/clomid. For long esters at reasonable doses this is two to three weeks. For higher doses or longer esters it goes up, and can be six or seven for large amounts of deca or boldenone.

If I didn't do HCG on cycle then I'd do 1,000 IU/d for 10 days. That's two bottles. I'd start that at T minus 10 days from starting nolva/clomid

I'd also keep taking the AI I took on cycle into this gap, and stop when nolva/clomid starts. Any concerns about HCG boosting estrogen would be taken care of by this.

For nolva and clomid I'd go 40/40/40/20/20 nolva 50/50/50/25/25 clomid - or thereabouts. Choice for four vs five vs six weeks is again based on how long of an ester was taken. There is no need for 100 mg/day clomid unless you want to start PCT too early. Wait long enough and there's no need.

 

[MrDavid9000]

A lot of different PCT’s, if you go to 10 different endocrinologists and you had low test they would all give you different regiments but kind of basically the same theory behind it.
PCT is the same, whatever restores your natural hormones as fast as possible with as little negative side effects as possible... with that being said the entire beliefs of “proper PCT” will vary quite abit.
Some people will use HCG throughout the entire cycle and spot during pct, some will only use HCG at the end then start PCT and stop a few weeks after, some people will take clomid all the way thru with HCG some won’t do anything, some will say taking more then 50gm of clomid will cause side effects and damage your sight, some will only do clomid, some will only do Nolvadex and aromisin, some will do a combination of the above in all kinds of different regiments.
The basic concept is get your natural hormones back to normal ASAP and as long as it’s safe and you can achieve that you are doing what’s right for you.
This is what I will be doing my next pct in 6 weeks:
Hcg 500iu x 2 per week, for 5 weeks (1week prior to last injections, 4 weeks past).
Clomid 50/25/25/25
Aromisin 50/25/25/25/25
Nolvadex 40/20/20/20/20

 

[Nicky_eye_lids]

40/40/40/20/20 nolva 50/50/50/25/25 clomid like tankman said and hcg before your pct.

 

[IMT staff]

Great advice here from the vets. To add, its hard to over do HCG. You cannot take it too long when trying to restart the HPTA.

 

[MrDavid9000]

I think Rich Piana does a video about taking 5000iu EOD for 3 months... pretty crazy, but I guess your right, you can’t OD.

Great advice here from the vets. To add, its hard to over do HCG. You cannot take it too long when trying to restart the HPTA.

 

[casanovaaa]

I think Rich Piana does a video about taking 5000iu EOD for 3 months... pretty crazy, but I guess your right, you can***8217;t OD.

But for his body size it was spot on. lots of people try to do the cycles that these beasts are doing and thinking they will get the same results. they dont consider the fact that the dosages are for their bodysize and not some guy whos 175 pounds 5 foot 8 25%bf with bad acne.

 

[MrDavid9000]

This would make sense, he was 300 plus pounds (I think off season was 330), big dude for sure.

But for his body size it was spot on. lots of people try to do the cycles that these beasts are doing and thinking they will get the same results. they dont consider the fact that the dosages are for their bodysize and not some guy whos 175 pounds 5 foot 8 25%bf with bad acne.

 

[casanovaaa]

I think Rich Piana does a video about taking 5000iu EOD for 3 months... pretty crazy, but I guess your right, you can***8217;t OD.

if you read the insert from the manufacturer they prescribe 10,000iu ED for boys.

 

[PabloA93]

So, I will have my last pin of Test E in two weeks. I have HCG and Nolva in hand.

I was thinking to run 1,000iu HCG ED for 10 days starting the day after last jab of Test E. Then start my SERM treatment consisting of Nolva four days later at 40/40/20/20/20 for five weeks.

How does that sound? I really do not want to mess up anything and be sure to recover completely. I would really like to get some feedback from you guys as this is my first ever cycle, and therefore obviously also my first ever PCT.

 

[PabloA93]

Or, knowing that too much HCG can very well have a desensitizing effect on the Leydig cell, maybe 500iu ED for ten days would be better?

 

[IMT staff]

Or, knowing that too much HCG can very well have a desensitizing effect on the Leydig cell, maybe 500iu ED for ten days would be better?

Thats not true. Its a myth. I would consider trying 1,000 IU 3 times per week until it runs out. Under your doctors supervision of course

I would also consider waiting like 2-3 weeks before starting the HCG.

 

[PabloA93]

Thats not true. Its a myth. I would consider trying 1,000 IU 3 times per week until it runs out. Under your doctors supervision of course

I would also consider waiting like 2-3 weeks before starting the HCG.

So how would a protocol be?

 

[IMT staff]

If I was going to do it here is what my doctor might suggest to me:

Wait 14 days after last test injection and then initiate HCG 3x per week 1,000 IU per shot. During this time take some anastrozole with your HCG to control estradiol. The exact amount will depend on your affinity to convert via the aromatase enzyme. But somewhere between 0.5 mg and 1.5mg per week.

If you have 10,000 IU this will last just over 3 weeks. Once the HCG is gone then wait 4 days and start a combination of clomiphene and tamoxifen. Do this for 30-45 days. Once completed wait 30 days and draw blood.

It is extremely beneficial to run growth hormone peptides from the start of the HCG through the SERM treatment. Vitamin D and E are also really important to the recovery process.

Hope this helps

 

[PapaNoel]

Thats not true. Its a myth. I would consider trying 1,000 IU 3 times per week until it runs out. Under your doctors supervision of course
I would also consider waiting like 2-3 weeks before starting the HCG.

Doesn't HCG spikes your estrogen levels?
So 3k iu / week would have a significant effect on e2 levels?

 

[PapaNoel]

It is extremely beneficial to run growth hormone peptides from the start of the HCG through the SERM treatment. Vitamin D and E are also really important to the recovery process.

I have like 60 iu GH but havent seen a real reason to use it cuz its so little...
But im middle of PCT, think it would be a good addition?

 

[PabloA93]

If I was going to do it here is what my doctor might suggest to me:

Wait 14 days after last test injection and then initiate HCG 3x per week 1,000 IU per shot. During this time take some anastrozole with your HCG to control estradiol. The exact amount will depend on your affinity to convert via the aromatase enzyme. But somewhere between 0.5 mg and 1.5mg per week.

If you have 10,000 IU this will last just over 3 weeks. Once the HCG is gone then wait 4 days and start a combination of clomiphene and tamoxifen. Do this for 30-45 days. Once completed wait 30 days and draw blood.

It is extremely beneficial to run growth hormone peptides from the start of the HCG through the SERM treatment. Vitamin D and E are also really important to the recovery process.

Hope this helps

Thanks for elaborating!

So I had my last pin of Test E two days ago, and will wait 10-14 days to initiate HCG. I was planning to do 1500 iu EoD for 20 days (10 shots) and then begin my PCT consisting of Nolva 3-4 days later. That would put me at around 6000 iu a week comparing to the 3000 iu a week you suggest. Would that be a major difference?

And should I continue taking Adex at 0,5 mg EoD through the days between the end of cycle and the beginning of HCG (10-14 days)? Or would I just begin Adex again when iniatiating HCG in order to control estradiol?