First time cutting, diet critique/suggestions wanted!

Lol dude your far too intelligent (judging by your posts) to be obsessed over catabolism :)

I dont think people realise just how difficult it is to lose muscle ESPECIALLY if your training is intense (heavy weights) & your protein intake is good (not to mention 225mg of test lol).
1.5g is fine if your comfortable with it, but you should be aware that the higher your bf% - the lower the risks of muscle loss (hence lower protein recommendations at higher bf levels).

Yeah you're right I am being a little obsessive over it, I only say this because it is my first time cutting properly and am a little nervous as to how it all pans out, but I will push through!

And yes Dre that reminds me, training wise I have reduced it to 45 mins - 1 hour at the very most, short, sharp and intense. Would things like forced reps, negatives, drop sets be useless or counter productive during a cut? Sorry for all the questions, I hate to be one of those people that wants to be spoon fed, I see it all the time in the AAS subforum, but when it comes to cutting this is uncharted territory for me lol it's all new too me and I want to be learning the right way rather than the hard way if you know what I mean.

Also, do these cravings get worse or better lol... I can only assume worse?
 
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I can tell you i have never really craved sweet foods or sugar in my life. However these past two weeks all i want to do is DESTROY CARBS!
 
I can tell you i have never really craved sweet foods or sugar in my life. However these past two weeks all i want to do is DESTROY CARBS!

Yeah I'm starting to crave just carbs in general, huge tub of brown rice or a bun of bread, it would be a lie to say I'm not craving going to get a takeaway pizza and just destroy it.

But I suppose that's what separates the people who can and can't do this sport ;)
 
What's going to help preserve your muscle besides the protein is intensity as a function of your 1RM. All those tricks aren't really needed unless they help you push past a sticking point. Aim to add weight to the bar whenever possible and keep your reps and sets low. Do you train body parts or lifts?

The key to what RippedZilla is trying to get across is one of the more is better mentality. Cutting should be relatively easy. Lifting weights, while in a calorie deficit with ample protein is ALL you need. You have the added edge of your TRT dose (what levels does that put you at btw?) and youth. The harder you cut the more it becomes that less is more. Counterintuitive but true.
 
I like to train body parts rather than focus on lifts and like to split legs into seperate days (one day for calves/hamstrings and one day for quads), I'm a big fan of drop sets and have been pushing them a little too much I think so I will leave them out for the whole cut and keep it basic and simple and focus on moving weight and maintaining strength.

225mg is my TRT, yes it is a little on the high side and more so of a cruise dose and puts me at around a calculated (based off previous bloods and doses/frequnecy) ~1500ng/dl which will be confirmed via bloods within the next few weeks. I may possibly go down to 200mg as ~1500ng/dl is my goal, without changing the thread to TRT just if your curious yes the higher than TRT dose is to give the added body comp benefits, libido etc as if I am having to control my test levels for the rest of my life I sure as hell do not want mediocre levels and will make the most of it. Never the less as I age I plan to lower those levels without question.
 
I like to train body parts rather than focus on lifts and like to split legs into seperate days (one day for calves/hamstrings and one day for quads), I'm a big fan of drop sets and have been pushing them a little too much I think so I will leave them out for the whole cut and keep it basic and simple and focus on moving weight and maintaining strength.

I'm not a big proponent for training body parts bc the body functions as a system and IMO is meant to be trained that way but obviously I can't force you to change your views lol. My one piece of advice is if you wish to remain training body parts is to keep compound lifts as your primary focus ie squats, deadlifts, bench press, press, good mornings, dips, pull-ups, etc. Out your primary focus On those and use accessory or isolation lifts as needed.

225mg is my TRT, yes it is a little on the high side and more so of a cruise dose and puts me at around a calculated (based off previous bloods and doses/frequnecy) ~1500ng/dl which will be confirmed via bloods within the next few weeks. I may possibly go down to 200mg as ~1500ng/dl is my goal, without changing the thread to TRT just if your curious yes the higher than TRT dose is to give the added body comp benefits, libido etc as if I am having to control my test levels for the rest of my life I sure as hell do not want mediocre levels and will make the most of it. Never the less as I age I plan to lower those levels without question.

At ~1500ng/dL you definitely have enough testosterone in your system and the var won't be necessary. The one thing with var is it seems to promote SQ abdominal fat loss but his will also happen through your diet as you lean down. Save the var for another day is my advice.
 
At ~1500ng/dL you definitely have enough testosterone in your system and the var won't be necessary. The one thing with var is it seems to promote SQ abdominal fat loss but his will also happen through your diet as you lean down. Save the var for another day is my advice.

Combined with 300g protein daily, I think I'll leave the anavar alone for my next cut then.

Also, another question. I noticed today my training is suffering a bit, the pump is extremely painful and I was a little bit faint as you would expect on a cut so I was considering maybe upping the pre workout carbs a little more?

Also if you may have noticed, in most post-post-workout meal (PWO being just the shake for now) I have a lean steak for protein but does contain some fat... Is that a no-no to be combining the steak with the third and final carb source of the day considering I will be more sensitive to insulin now? It is brown rice with brocoli by the way. I know it's a hotly debated topic mixing carbs/fats but what are your views on it Rippedzilla? Also, what do you think of removing the brown rice PPWO so it is just the brocoli and steak and have 50G dextrose PWO with my shake instead?
 
Combined with 300g protein daily, I think I'll leave the anavar alone for my next cut then.

Also, another question. I noticed today my training is suffering a bit, the pump is extremely painful and I was a little bit faint as you would expect on a cut so I was considering maybe upping the pre workout carbs a little more?

Also if you may have noticed, in most post-post-workout meal (PWO being just the shake for now) I have a lean steak for protein but does contain some fat... Is that a no-no to be combining the steak with the third and final carb source of the day considering I will be more sensitive to insulin now? It is brown rice with brocoli by the way. I know it's a hotly debated topic mixing carbs/fats but what are your views on it Rippedzilla? Also, what do you think of removing the brown rice PPWO so it is just the brocoli and steak and have 50G dextrose PWO with my shake instead?

What would the carbs do in regards to a painful pump? If the pumps are getting you bad try making sure you're drinking enough electrolytes and start supplementing taurine at 3-10g daily. You could split it in 2-3 doses if desired but take some immediately before the gym or during. It should help out.

There is never a need to worry about mixing macros unless you have a medical condition such as diabetes. Eat all the fats you want whenever you want, eat all the carbs you want, mix the two together, etc just stay within your macro and caloric allotment.

I see no need to switch things just to add dextrose. It's a carb source like any other except void of any minerals and vitamins (unless added but not always the case). Speed of spiking insulin levels PWO is balogne and dextrose will have no better effect than brown rice or any other carb source (except maybe fructose).

A great read about carbs and fat mixing:

Carbs & Fat: Friends After All? - AlanAragon.com - Fitness Based on Science & Experience
 
Allright will get my hands on some Taurine.

I recalculated my macros and dropped breakfast to 30G carbs from 60G, prewkrout carbs are still at 60G though. Am I pushing the boundaries on going that low with carbs, is it bordering ketosis or not even close?
 
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Also, another question. I noticed today my training is suffering a bit, the pump is extremely painful and I was a little bit faint as you would expect on a cut so I was considering maybe upping the pre workout carbs a little more?

Considering how small a deficit your on, I'm extremely suprised that you felt faint (that IS NOT normal on a moderate deficit).
Most inexperienced dieters do experience some degree of fatigue/hunger (due to the sudden changes in ghrelin) but it should pass within a few days.
If it doesn't then my question will naturally be - Just how much volume are you using in your training programme?

Also if you may have noticed, in most post-post-workout meal (PWO being just the shake for now) I have a lean steak for protein but does contain some fat... Is that a no-no to be combining the steak with the third and final carb source of the day considering I will be more sensitive to insulin now? It is brown rice with brocoli by the way. I know it's a hotly debated topic mixing carbs/fats but what are your views on it Rippedzilla? Also, what do you think of removing the brown rice PPWO so it is just the brocoli and steak and have 50G dextrose PWO with my shake instead?

Your insulin sensitivity will naturally increase as you cut carbs/calories (this is somewhat counteracted by high intensity weight training, but that's another story) - I certainly wouldn't worry about it at your bf%.
Insulin is only something to take into consideration when structuring refeeds & other smaller factors that you certainly don't need to worry about at this stage.

As Dre (we make a good tag team based on this thread :)) has already pointed out, their is nothing wrong with mixing carbs/fats - if anything, they help stabilise your energy levels. However, I suspect the reason most avoid fats pre/postwo is because it doesn't do anything beneficial around this time.
It does tend to slow down digestion but I would only worry about this if your consuming huge amounts or on a bulk - on a cut this point becomes moot.
One of those things were it offers no positives, but no negatives either around your workout.

The only meal I consider important when cutting is the preworkout meal - you really want to make sure the bulk of your carbs are here (along with sufficient protein) to ensure you maintain intensity in the gym. Apart from that, the other meals are irrelevant (including postwo) IIFYM.
 
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I am trying to stick with 45 minute sessions, will be focussing on the compounds at the start as usual and as Dre suggested. No drop sets, forced reps etc nothing fancy. I think I am just used to eating a lot of carbs and moderate fats (love my rice and peanut butter which) with my protein sources and I'm just adjusting to the reduced energy levels hence why I am using caffeine to help me.

Zilla, if I wanted to go for a bit more of a caloric deficit, what would you suggest changing around? I was going to assume fats but I really want to keep that half avocado in there and have dropped peanut butter (unless I need it as an equivalent substitute for when I run out of avocados).
 
Considering how small a deficit your on, I'm extremely suprised that you felt faint (that IS NOT normal on a moderate deficit).
Most inexperienced dieters do experience some degree of fatigue/hunger (due to the sudden changes in ghrelin) but it should pass within a few days.
If it doesn't then my question will naturally be - Just how much volume are you using in your training programme?



Your insulin sensitivity will naturally increase as you cut carbs/calories (this is somewhat counteracted by high intensity weight training, but that's another story) - I certainly wouldn't worry about it at your bf%.
Insulin is only something to take into consideration when structuring refeeds & other smaller factors that you certainly don't need to worry about at this stage.

As Dre (we make a good tag team based on this thread :)) has already pointed out, their is nothing wrong with mixing carbs/fats - if anything, they help stabilise your energy levels. However, I suspect the reason most avoid fats pre/postwo is because it doesn't do anything beneficial around this time.
It does tend to slow down digestion but I would only worry about this if your consuming huge amounts or on a bulk - on a cut this point becomes moot.
One of those things were it offers no positives, but no negatives either around your workout.

The only meal I consider important when cutting is the preworkout meal - you really want to make sure the bulk of your carbs are here (along with sufficient protein) to ensure you maintain intensity in the gym. Apart from that, the other meals are irrelevant (including postwo) IIFYM.

I believe most who try to avoid fats post-workout do so for one of a few reasons: they worry about blunting the "post workout insulin spike" by taking in dietary fat, they worry about slowing down glycogen re synthesis, or they were told never to mix carbs and fats in the same meal due to it going "straight to fat".

My question to you is this: do we truly know that dietary fat has no benefit around training time or is it simply the evidence has not shown a benefit yet. I ask bc there's at least one interesting study compared whole milk, fat free milk, and a higher dose of fat free milk (to compare them isocalorically). TA Elliot et al. Found that whole milk improved net nitrogen retention and muscle protein synthesis over fat free milk, even when the fat free milk contained 81% more protein. It would seem as though the fat content possibly had something to do with the results; the researchers themselves even speculated that the fat content may play a role in improving nitrogen retention among other things but dismissed this theory in favor of performing more research on the matter.

The study I'm referring to:

Elliot TA, et al. Milk ingestion stimulates net muscle protein synthesis following resistance exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006 Apr;38(4):667-74.


Edit* I enjoy attacking these issues from two or more very similar mind sets...very little gets missed this way
 
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I am trying to stick with 45 minute sessions, will be focussing on the compounds at the start as usual and as Dre suggested. No drop sets, forced reps etc nothing fancy. I think I am just used to eating a lot of carbs and moderate fats (love my rice and peanut butter which) with my protein sources and I'm just adjusting to the reduced energy levels hence why I am using caffeine to help me.

Zilla, if I wanted to go for a bit more of a caloric deficit, what would you suggest changing around? I was going to assume fats but I really want to keep that half avocado in there and have dropped peanut butter (unless I need it as an equivalent substitute for when I run out of avocados).

Off the bat I'd suggest those calories coming from your dietary fat as you've more than met minimum needs but you could also consider dropping your PRO as 300+g is more than adequate for your goals and stats. I personally don't like seeing carbs go under ~100g or so unless you plan on going to ketosis
 
Interesting study you posted there Dre.

Yeah I was worried about going below 100g carbs would be at the point where it's too low. The only reason for not wanting to swap the steak out with something like chicken is just to keep things interesting, reap the benfeits of a steak over chicken and because I love my steak... Unless I happen to be mis-calculating the amount of fat in a 150g of lean beef.
 
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Zilla, if I wanted to go for a bit more of a caloric deficit, what would you suggest changing around? I was going to assume fats but I really want to keep that half avocado in there and have dropped peanut butter (unless I need it as an equivalent substitute for when I run out of avocados).

I personally wouldn't drop anything.
I know I keep harping on about how small your deficit is but, considering you have no experience in dieting, I think its a good idea to start small and see how you go, especially considering your already suffering from issues of fatigue/cravings.
Obviously if you find it comfortable then you can make adjustments on a week by week basis but for now I wouldn't look too far into the future (another mistake failed dieters make).

My question to you is this: do we truly know that dietary fat has no benefit around training time or is it simply the evidence has not shown a benefit yet. I ask bc there's at least one interesting study compared whole milk, fat free milk, and a higher dose of fat free milk (to compare them isocalorically). TA Elliot et al. Found that whole milk improved net nitrogen retention and muscle protein synthesis over fat free milk, even when the fat free milk contained 81% more protein. It would seem as though the fat content possibly had something to do with the results; the researchers themselves even speculated that the fat content may play a role in improving nitrogen retention among other things but dismissed this theory in favor of performing more research on the matter.

The study I'm referring to:
Elliot TA, et al. Milk ingestion stimulates net muscle protein synthesis following resistance exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006 Apr;38(4):667-74.

Edit* I enjoy attacking these issues from two or more very similar mind sets...very little gets missed this way

I think its difficult to determine the benefits of dietary fat from a study based on milk because milk (fat free or otherwise) is a superb food source for bodyrecomp. The 20% whey, 80% casein blend along with a few carbs and the calcium (very beneficial to recomp) create a superb sports drink.
A great review on the benefits on milk can be found here:
Milk: the new sports drink? A Review. [J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2008] - PubMed - NCBI

I certainly don't see an issue with dietary fat being consumed POST workout.
In fact my theory in relation to the study you posted is that the effect of dietary fat in milk on slowing down digestion would actually be BENEFICIAL postwo since it allows a more steady supply of protein.
Since their are studies showing a whey/casein mix being more beneficial than whey alone (especially in preventing muscle breakdown) due mainly to the longer lasting supply coming from casein, I don't think its unreasonable to say that fat would aid in this aspect (since it would slow down the supply even further).

I did also say that, apart from prewo, IIFYM applies for all other meals. I don't see any benefits of adding dietary fat prewo since slower digestion is not ideal here.

As a side note: I also think fat is generally avoided when cutting because its caloric value is expensive compared to carbs/protein :)
 
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I personally wouldn't drop anything.
I know I keep harping on about how small your deficit is but, considering you have no experience in dieting, I think its a good idea to start small and see how you go, especially considering your already suffering from issues of fatigue/cravings.
Obviously if you find it comfortable then you can make adjustments on a week by week basis but for now I wouldn't look too far into the future (another mistake failed dieters make).



I think its difficult to determine the benefits of dietary fat from a study based on milk because milk (fat free or otherwise) is a superb food source for bodyrecomp. The 20% whey, 80% casein blend along with a few carbs and the calcium (very beneficial to recomp) create a superb sports drink.
A great review on the benefits on milk can be found here:
Milk: the new sports drink? A Review. [J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2008] - PubMed - NCBI

I certainly don't see an issue with dietary fat being consumed POST workout.
In fact my theory in relation to the study you posted is that the effect of dietary fat in milk on slowing down digestion would actually be BENEFICIAL postwo since it allows a more steady supply of protein.
Since their are studies showing a whey/casein mix being more beneficial than whey alone (especially in preventing muscle breakdown) due mainly to the longer lasting supply coming from casein, I don't think its unreasonable to say that fat would aid in this aspect (since it would slow down the supply even further).

I did also say that, apart from prewo, IIFYM applies for all other meals. I don't see any benefits of adding dietary fat prewo since slower digestion is not ideal here.

As a side note: I also think fat is generally avoided when cutting because its caloric value is expensive compared to carbs/protein :)

I'm assuming you've seen Alan Aragon's piece comparing chocolate milk post workout to Surge (a BCCAA) product I believe?? I drink milk regularly, whole milk that is, and use it in my post workout shakes. I'm sold on the benefits of milk lol!

From my understanding of the study I referenced, does it matter if milk is an effective tool for a body recomp IF they used milk in all 3 groups? What I mean by that is I would agree with your statement "milk is a superb food choice for a body recomp" but since the study participants all took milk and the only differences between the groups were one whole milk group of X volume, one fat free milk group of the same X volume, and a fat free milk group with Y volume but matches total calories of the whole milk group (which takes into consideration the differences in calories).

Now my thoughts again are that milk is a great source of nutrients but why would whole milk have a greater effect on body comp vs a fat free milk group if total protein and carb amounts remain the same? When compared to the last group of participants, why would whole milk have a greater effect on body comp in an ISOCALORIC comparison EVEN WHEN the final group took in approximately 81% more total protein than the whole milk group?

The main differences between groups 1 and 2 are the calories coming from fat since the total protein and carb amounts would be the same and between groups 1 and 3 the main differences are the amount of dietary fat and protein since they were calorie matched. Now participants were in an overnight fasted state which may have had a role in their response but I still find it interesting that whole milk beat out the same amount of fat free milk and also beat out a larger amount of fat free milk that had a statistically significant difference in total protein in favor of fat free milk.

I'm not saying it has to be bc of the fat since the researchers themselves concluded more investigation is necessary and to my knowledge this hasn't been replicated but it does certainly make me wonder lol.

Thank you for indulging me :)


Edit* I'm slow. Your comments on how dietary fat will slow down the release of the protein skipped my mind. That's an entirely plausible explanation for the differences as well.

Edit x2* do NOT tell the Atkins/Taubes crowd about how expensive calorie wise dietary fat is, they seem to believe one can take in an unlimited supply of dietary fat without getting fat lol
 
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I personally wouldn't drop anything.
I know I keep harping on about how small your deficit is but, considering you have no experience in dieting, I think its a good idea to start small and see how you go, especially considering your already suffering from issues of fatigue/cravings.
Obviously if you find it comfortable then you can make adjustments on a week by week basis but for now I wouldn't look too far into the future (another mistake failed dieters make).

Allright I'll adjust on a week by week basis if needed then. I have dropped the breakfast carbs a little and upped the pre-workout carbs to 70g (total 145g) per day, it is 2500cals but leaves some room for error even if I go 300cals over by some chance, I should still be in a deficit. Also, all food is weighed once cooked, chicken, brown rice, the rolled oats/lean beef are the only thing weighed before being cooked)
 
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Sorry to dissapoint fellas but I've been reccomended by a fair few experienced fellas (AAS users, 10+ years experience, competitive) that have told me I am better off trying to put on a little bit more size at the least and then look at doing a mini-cut (which was my original plan, I just got excited and felt like begging a cut now) as that extra mass will not only mean it will be easier to drop the fat, but provided I keep my diet clean and throw in 2x a week fasted cardio I should be able to put on some decent mass with not so much fat along the way.

Will be changing my diet up to a bulk and posting it up.

I can be real indecisive at times, but I think this is the better choice to at least try slap on some size then consider a cut. I had dropped 2 kilos since starting the cut, granted a lot of it water/glycogen levels dropping and maybe a little bit of fat at best. It's not that I couldn't continue with the cut, I was determined to finish it up at the least 4 weeks but I have begun to realise what I have been told to do (clean bulk up then consider a cut) will be the better option.
 
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