Hard HPTA shutdown and post cycle recovery?

[ready2explode]

Dont get all pissy lawn saver. I dont believe your "personal account," thats not proof. You offered no proof. Therefore your story is bullshit. You really shouldnt state a "fact" without something to back it up. I will contact swale to get the real truth from him (which u should have done since you posted it).

And here is the abstract backing my opinion that 750 ius every 4 days is TOO MUCH:

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1984 Feb;58(2):327-31

Differential effect of single high dose and divided small dose administration of human chorionic gonadotropin on Leydig cell steroidogenic desensitization.

Smals AG, Pieters GF, Boers GH, Raemakers JM, Hermus AR, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.

This study compared the effect of a single high dose of hCG (1500 IU) with that of the same dose administered in multiple small doses (300 IU, once daily for 5 days) on Leydig cell steroidogenesis. Administration of a single high dose of hCG to seven healthy men raised the mean plasma testosterone (T) level to peak levels 2.1 +/- 0.2 (SEM) X the baseline value at 48 h. Thereafter plasma T decreased to below normal (0.7 +/- 0.1 X baseline) 7 days after the injection. The mean 17-hydroxyprogesterone (17-OHP) level peaked at 24 h (2.5 +/- 0.2 X baseline) and then also fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.2 X baseline on day 7. Reflecting the early accumulation of 17-OHP over T, the 17 OHP/T ratio reached its maximum (1.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline) at 24 h at the same time when plasma estradiol [(E2) 4.4 +/- 0.6 X baseline] and the ratio E2/T (2.7 +/- 0.3 X baseline) achieved their maximal values. Administration of 1500 IU hCG in five divided doses of 300 IU daily increased the mean plasma T levels to peak value of 2.1 +/- 0.2 X baseline at 5 days and the levels remained elevated thereafter. The response of T as reflected by the area under the curve was almost twice as great as in the single dose study (2844 +/- 360 vs. 1647 +/- 214). In contrast to the single high dose experiment, mean plasma 17-OHP levels in the divided dose protocol did not peak at 24 h but only gradually increased. As the increase of T exceeded the 17-OHP increase at almost all time intervals, no accumulation of 17-OHP over T occurred as in the single dose experiment. Instead the 17-OHP/T ratio fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline on day 7. The initial E2 peak was absent in the divided dose protocol and the E2/T ratio only marginally increased. Considering both experiments together a close relation was found between the hCG-induced increases in E2 and 17-OHP (r = +0.88, P less than 0.001), as well as the ratio 17 OHP/T (r = +0.64, P less than 0.02).(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 400 WORDS)

 

[Dial_tone]

Dude, you should try Sanka.

 

[SWALE]

ready2explode--I'm always glad to see guys doing research and studying up on this stuff. Please allow me to tune-up your interpretation of this study a bit.

This study was done comparing 300IU to 1500IU per dose. It was not done comparing 300IU to 750IU per dose. To use a dose twice that of the study in order to draw your conclusion is unwarranted. However, the same rule ALWAYS applies: don't use more than you have to. If 300Iu works alright, then by all means don't take more than that. In fact, I recently moved my Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) patients from 500IU on Sat and Sun. to 250IU at a time. Of note, several complained that they missed the testosterone spike they got with the higher dose, though! So your advice to try to use 300IU at a time certainly is wise.

For my Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) patients I tell them to use 500IU on two consecutive days each week, and only move up if they still notice testicular atrophy. Then they will know better for their next cycle (as this is a "know thyself" game).

The reason the 17-OHP levels increased is because LH has effects at other places in the body than just the testes. For instance, it is also responsible for modulating the conversion of cholesterol to pregnenolone, which is the rate-limiting step in the steroidogenesis pathway. 17-OHP is one of the pathways after that. This study confirms my suspicion that the cross reactivity of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is high in comparison to LH at the particular P450 enzyme which catalyzes this conversion. Although there is no evidence to prove it, I fear there may be harm in long-term suppression of the HPTA, so I am glad to have my patients use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) in this manner in order to stimulate the system at this--and other currently unknown--points.

 

[LAWNSAVER]

Dont get all pissy lawn saver. I dont believe your "personal account," thats not proof. You offered no proof. Therefore your story is bullshit. You really shouldnt state a "fact" without something to back it up. I will contact swale to get the real truth from him (which u should have done since you posted it).

And here is the abstract backing my opinion that 750 ius every 4 days is TOO MUCH:

Ok, your the one all excited. I am just baffled why you dont believe me? Why would I make something like this up? You are not making sense. And I never said 300ius wasnt effective and it might work for you....Actually I dont even think you use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). I think you just read a study and wrote about it like you actually have knowledge. I see now you just pawn off the abstract as your knowledge.

Anyway...My story is accuate and i have no reason to lie. I really dont see why you are trying so hard not to believe me. Its just funny.

Now, Swale has come to clarify and I how you will believe in his knowledge!

 

[!@#$%^&]

Im not a newbie except in experience. I understand most stuff on these boards except when you guys start gettin scientific on me. What is the conclusion of this thread, if someone would be kind enough to explain for me?

from what it LOOKS like to me, 500IU 2 days per week is normal prescribed, and moved up if testicular atrophy is experienced. Although, 300IU recently has experienced better results?

 

[bluewizz]

Ok, your the one all excited. I am just baffled why you dont believe me? Why would I make something like this up? You are not making sense. And I never said 300ius wasnt effective and it might work for you....Actually I dont even think you use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). I think you just read a study and wrote about it like you actually have knowledge. I see now you just pawn off the abstract as your knowledge.

Anyway...My story is accuate and i have no reason to lie. I really dont see why you are trying so hard not to believe me. Its just funny.

Now, Swale has come to clarify and I how you will believe in his knowledge!

I have used Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) before and have asked already for recommendations on how to best use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) to prevent testicle shrinkage for my upcoming summer cycle. Ive found tons and tons of methods to be used (post cycle, during cycle....ect), and your theory makes the most sence to me so far. I have already included Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) 500iu shots every 4 days just like you adviced me. It just makes complete sense to use it throughout and every 4 days, considering all the factors including studies, hcg's half life, and my previous Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) experience.

 

[LAWNSAVER]

Im not a newbie except in experience. I understand most stuff on these boards except when you guys start gettin scientific on me. What is the conclusion of this thread, if someone would be kind enough to explain for me?

from what it LOOKS like to me, 500IU 2 days per week is normal prescribed, and moved up if testicular atrophy is experienced. Although, 300IU recently has experienced better results?

The study says 300ius is better than 1500ius. Although some might respond to 300ius and if you do use that dose, but I dont respond to anything less than 500ius. You will have to feel it out. 1 shot every 4 days or 2 shots, 5 off 2 on works great also!

I wasnt disputing the dose amount, I was disputing the fact of waiting till the end to use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). Prevent it, dont revert it!

 

[ready2explode]

ready2explode--I'm always glad to see guys doing research and studying up on this stuff. Please allow me to tune-up your interpretation of this study a bit.

This study was done comparing 300IU to 1500IU per dose. It was not done comparing 300IU to 750IU per dose. To use a dose twice that of the study in order to draw your conclusion is unwarranted. However, the same rule ALWAYS applies: don't use more than you have to. If 300Iu works alright, then by all means don't take more than that. In fact, I recently moved my Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) patients from 500IU on Sat and Sun. to 250IU at a time. Of note, several complained that they missed the testosterone spike they got with the higher dose, though! So your advice to try to use 300IU at a time certainly is wise.

Hey swale, I love when ya chime in. My interpretation of the study was that less is more with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). The study states that the "response of T as reflected by the area under the curve was almost twice as great as in the single dose study (2844 +/- 360 vs. 1647 +/- 214)." Lawn saver recommended a dose of 500iu-750iu every 4 days. I believe this dose to be high (1/3 - 1/2 the single dose used in the study) based on the study. I think that a dose in the range of 1/6-1/3 is a better recomendation.

 

[ready2explode]

Ok, your the one all excited. I am just baffled why you dont believe me? Why would I make something like this up? You are not making sense. And I never said 300ius wasnt effective and it might work for you....Actually I dont even think you use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). I think you just read a study and wrote about it like you actually have knowledge. I see now you just pawn off the abstract as your knowledge.

Anyway...My story is accuate and i have no reason to lie. I really dont see why you are trying so hard not to believe me. Its just funny.

Now, Swale has come to clarify and I how you will believe in his knowledge!

You wanna start getting rowdy, huh? I dont think you made up your story, I just think there are a million reasons why you drew wrong conclusions - maybe u thought u had bigger balls? could be all in your head.

As for Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), I've used it in my past 3 cycle...so I think you should keep your trap closed there.

"I see now you just pawn off the abstract as your knowledge." What kinda comment is that lawnsaver? Much of my knowledge is derived from research. I used it to show why I believed your recommendation was high. Gotta start mud slingin when the going gets tough? Just back up what you say and you wont have this problem bro.

 

[dragon06]

What about 500iu just 2days in mid cycle and Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) post cycle.

 

[LAWNSAVER]

You wanna start getting rowdy, huh? I dont think you made up your story, I just think there are a million reasons why you drew wrong conclusions - maybe u thought u had bigger balls? could be all in your head.

As for Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), I've used it in my past 3 cycle...so I think you should keep your trap closed there.

"I see now you just pawn off the abstract as your knowledge." What kinda comment is that lawnsaver? Much of my knowledge is derived from research. I used it to show why I believed your recommendation was high. Gotta start mud slingin when the going gets tough? Just back up what you say and you wont have this problem bro.

Dude, I'm not trying to get roudy, you jump on me with my story. And its not in my fucking head. My right testicle is the size of a pea. It happen during a cycle including deca. What the fuck is up with you. We need to hear everyones real world stories, so we can relate the abstracts to people taking steroids and come up with the right cource of action And you base all your comments on abstracts...how can you do this. I applaud your wanting to read scientific studies, but how many are based on steroid users? Not many if any. The point I make is that we have to take into account that we will respond different than someone who doesnt use steriods.

And I dont have a problem...you think just because you have one abstract that say 300ius over 5 days is better than 1 1500iu shot is the answer. Its not, we have to take into account the gear we use.

This is the point you are missing. Because of my atrophy, I have had to find the right way to recover and prevent any atrophy. I consulted Swale and this is what he recomended. 500ius over 300ius is not that much different over 5 days or 2 days. Now 1500ius for one day only is a big difference.

The main points I need everyone to understand is that everyone is different. Small doses throughout the entire cycle is much better than waiting for the atrophy to set in. And medical abstracts are a great baseline of info, but we have to incorporate real world experiences to find the right plan of attach for each of us!

 

[ready2explode]

Dude, I'm not trying to get roudy, you jump on me with my story. And its not in my fucking head. My right testicle is the size of a pea. It happen during a cycle including deca. What the fuck is up with you. We need to hear everyones real world stories, so we can relate the abstracts to people taking steroids and come up with the right cource of action And you base all your comments on abstracts...how can you do this. I applaud your wanting to read scientific studies, but how many are based on steroid users? Not many if any. The point I make is that we have to take into account that we will respond different than someone who doesnt use steriods.

I'm sorry you felt that I jumped on you about the story. I did not mean to. Even if I did take "real world experience" into account, you're the only person I've ever heard complain that after Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) administration your ballz still did not return to size. I didnt see one other person jump in here and say, " HEY! that happened to me too!" And if it were scientifically proven that atrophy of the leydig cells may be permanent, then I'm sure swale woud have mentioned that.

And I dont have a problem...you think just because you have one abstract that say 300ius over 5 days is better than 1 1500iu shot is the answer. Its not, we have to take into account the gear we use.

The problem I was referring to was proof that atrophy of the leydig cells may be permanent even with the use of hcg.

Just so you know, the gear you use has no bearing on how much atrophy one will experience unless using EXTREMELY low doses (ie 10mgs of Anavar (var) daily). If you are shut, you're shut down...whether on 1 gram of test for 700mgs of fina. Atrophy occurs because the leydig cells havent been stimulated by LH, not because of the type of gear we use.

This is the point you are missing. Because of my atrophy, I have had to find the right way to recover and prevent any atrophy. I consulted Swale and this is what he recomended. 500ius over 300ius is not that much different over 5 days or 2 days. Now 1500ius for one day only is a big difference..

I'm not missing any point. I believe the 750ius every 4 day range was high...thats all. I supported what I wrote with that abstract. Thats all.

The main points I need everyone to understand is that everyone is different. Small doses throughout the entire cycle is much better than waiting for the atrophy to set in. And medical abstracts are a great baseline of info, but we have to incorporate real world experiences to find the right plan of attach for each of us!

I agree with you bro! Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) throughout the cycle is best...just lower the dose a lil...thats all! 500ius every 5 days is plenty!

 

[Mudge]

For what every 2 studies back up, there will be one or two that tell a different story. Therefore real world experience plus some studies together is all valuable. What it all comes down to is do the research, listen to others, but your still going to have to find what works for you, the information is just guidance material.

 

[LAWNSAVER]

R2E, we have 3500 members, I really dont think thats a large enough group for you to dismiss that atrophy can become permanent.

Either way it happened to me. I dont know what else to say.

Also, progestins have a much different effect on us than androgens. Also, different gear affects everyone differently. So I dont agree with you that every steroid shuts you down to the same degree. I know for a fact through my personal experiences and other in my circle, that different gear shuts you down harder and longer than others.

 

[SWALE]

ready2explode--I was trying to make the point, Bro, that the study you helpfully posted DOESN'T prove your point. However, there are other valuable conclusions which may be drawn from it, so it was good to see.

And, if I may post some personal information, my testes did not come back fully when I quit using steroids. Or should I say, I'm still waiting!

You sure are right about the variability we see across the male population with respect to how our bodies react to Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) use. I have personally directed the cycles of literally hundreds of men now, and NOTHING surprises me anymore. The ONLY rule which ALWAYS holds? Know thyself.

 

[ready2explode]

ready2explode--I was trying to make the point, Bro, that the study you helpfully posted DOESN'T prove your point. However, there are other valuable conclusions which may be drawn from it, so it was good to see.

Hey swale, I'd love to hear why...still cant see the reason. If ya can, pm me and we'll keep this going there. Thanx bro.

 

[SWALE]

Am I remembering right? The study you posted compared 300IU to 1500IU? If so, you can't compare 750IU to 1500IU.

Also, I am curious as to why they used progesterone as a measure of how the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is performing. That hormone concentration is increased because LH causes more cholesterol to be converted into pregnelone, which in turn goes to progesterone.