Help lowering estrogen. ADVICE NEEDED

[Colin297]

Yes, pill form

Definately think ive moving towards a perfect protocol here. I'm pretty sure my endo will be outright horrified with the prospect of aromasin particularly with the old "suicide" label. In the UK i believe adex isn't even sanctioned for male usage yet!!!

On another note, in a few months i might use some DHT cream "down there" to help regain girth if it doesnt heal itself after my treatment, too. All bases covered! haha

 

[Colin297]

I also dont see prepping as a bad idea, it wouldnt be a bad idea to prep with aromasin too though-I would jump on the aromasin ASAP

If i had my way id be taking my first 12.5mg tablet today. I dont think id do 25mg off the bat. What do you think?

As i said im hoping for endo support first hence the delay in action :/

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

i think 25mg is called for. most people do not realize aromasin has a very low binding affinity. i do not think 25mg is very high dose. now if we were just guesing that your estro was high then i would say start @ 12.5mg but we know for sure it is. if anything i would go backwards, start at 25 and reduce to 12.5mg. 25mg does not suppress my estro too much even on a very mild dose of T

its cool to wait for endo, its just my opinion that i personally would start at least those 2 right away. high estrogen is very bad for you, in many more ways than just libido

 

[Colin297]

i think 25mg is called for. most people do not realize aromasin has a very low binding affinity. i do not think 25mg is very high dose. now if we were just guesing that your estro was high then i would say start @ 12.5mg but we know for sure it is. if anything i would go backwards, start at 25 and reduce to 12.5mg. 25mg does not suppress my estro too much even on a very mild dose of T

its cool to wait for endo, its just my opinion that i personally would start at least those 2 right away. high estrogen is very bad for you, in many more ways than just libido

I keep asking this, but is there any risk of tapering my E2 too much, like adex seems to do?

 

[rubicon09]

Hey colin when were you daignosed with this condition? and is your doctor treating you in any way for this condition??

 

[Colin297]

Hey colin when were you daignosed with this condition? and is your doctor treating you in any way for this condition??

Well such things are obviously very "loose" diagnosis. I knew right away it was the finasteride, which is why i stopped it in the first place.

My doctor referred me to the endo after my high e2 levels came back. This endo has dealt with another patient with similar issues from finasteride although this guy had low T. I think he was a bodybuilder actually.

He just prescribed my cialis in the interim. So, thus far , nothing.

That's about it for now. Booking another private appointment with the endo asap now i have these results.

Do you know anything about finasteride yourself/have you taken it, or are you just curious?

 

[rubicon09]

Just curious and maybe you should wait on taking the meds until you talk to your endo and he starts treatment on you. You can mention all of the things you have learned on here and suggest different treatments.

 

[rubicon09]

Colin i found a website called propeciahelp.com they have a discussion forum for pts with your type of condition. There is multiple members that discuss their treatments. Hope this helps if you havent already been there. Hope everything goes well for you.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

I keep asking this, but is there any risk of tapering my E2 too much, like adex seems to do?

there is always a risk of lowering E2 too much. side effects would be headaches, ahy joints and ED.

keep in mind though there are a couple studies that showed aromasin kept E2 in normal range in men, with a dose of 25mg ED.

i would be more worried about high E2 than low E2 even though they both suck. estrogen is also responsible for some brain function.

like i said though i doubt aromasin will do that at that dose, i know it shows it is stronger than adex but i personally think its the mildest one and the easiest to control E2 with because of its low binding affinity.

 

[Colin297]

is o.25mg twice a week for 2 weeks of dostinex ok?

 

[Colin297]

Colin i found a website called propeciahelp.com they have a discussion forum for pts with your type of condition. There is multiple members that discuss their treatments. Hope this helps if you havent already been there. Hope everything goes well for you.

Thanks Rubicon

Im on that website, too. Alot of the guys dont really know that much to be frank. I needed some more specific knowledge, and i realise people on here have a great base for these things.

I'm realtively lucky (i think) in that i havent had my whole system messed up. Some people have completely distorted hormone levels, mental problems and all the rest. Some develop secondary hypogonadism. Its brutal, really. Unfortunately most of the active members are simply tormented souls with 101 theories instead of any concrete advice. Stay off finasteride is my advice.

 

[rubicon09]

I agree colin the more i read on that forum the scarier the storys get. Oak is a very knowledgable person he should be able to help you.

 

[Mr. Humdiddly]

Lol, sorry Oak been busy with the new relationship. I foresaw the prolactin. The reason I recommend the HcG is to artificially raise endogenous test levels rapidly. The main issue is he was utilizing a 5-alpha reductase. His DHT levels are in the toilet. He needs to get some endogenous test into his system for DHT conversion.

The higher estrone levels caused HPTA shutdown. I absolutely agree SERM's can reinitiate HPTA function however, the lack of DHT in his system will make his aromatase cyclical production EXTREMELY high. Short of injecting exogenous DHT or testosterone the only way to rapidly increase DHT convertible testosterone is HcG.

If we removed the 5 alpha-reductase stimuli, I would absolutely agree SERM's alone would fix the issue within a month.

Regardless AI's should be used. I recommend letro over aromasin because it can penetrate adipose tissue more effectively. Judging by his rapid estrone level increase via aromatase conversion his BF could be higher then ideal.

 

[Colin297]

Lol, sorry Oak been busy with the new relationship. I foresaw the prolactin. The reason I recommend the HcG is to artificially raise endogenous test levels rapidly. The main issue is he was utilizing a 5-alpha reductase. His DHT levels are in the toilet. He needs to get some endogenous test into his system for DHT conversion.

The higher estrone levels caused HPTA shutdown. I absolutely agree SERM's can reinitiate HPTA function however, the lack of DHT in his system will make his aromatase cyclical production EXTREMELY high. Short of injecting exogenous DHT or testosterone the only way to rapidly increase DHT convertible testosterone is HcG.

If we removed the 5 alpha-reductase stimuli, I would absolutely agree SERM's alone would fix the issue within a month.

Regardless AI's should be used. I recommend letro over aromasin because it can penetrate adipose tissue more effectively. Judging by his rapid estrone level increase via aromatase conversion his BF could be higher then ideal.

Man you're a clever cookie, haha.

Would you oppose me trying the aromasin first to see how it goes?

Aromasin should help unbind SHBG (which i presume is high) which will hopefully aid DHT conversion/synthesis.

I'm sure my DHT levels are lower, well im sure my enzyme type II DHT production is low anyway, but I must add my hairloss rate remains the same and my beard growth etc also does, so levels aren't hypogondal.

I know a guy with similar bloods to me who had results on proviron although he's had ups and downs.

I have proviron , that would actually increase my DHT too by default if you think that could have a synergistic effect with an AI? Obviously that would increase the risk of driving E2 very low...

 

[Mr. Humdiddly]

Man you're a clever cookie, haha.

Would you oppose me trying the aromasin first to see how it goes?

Aromasin should help unbind SHBG (which i presume is high) which will hopefully aid DHT conversion/synthesis.

I'm sure my DHT levels are lower, well im sure my enzyme type II DHT production is low anyway, but I must add my hairloss rate remains the same and my beard growth etc also does, so levels aren't hypogondal.

I know a guy with similar bloods to me who had results on proviron although he's had ups and downs.

I have proviron , that would actually increase my DHT too by default if you think that could have a synergistic effect with an AI? Obviously that would increase the risk of driving E2 very low...

You need testosterone for DHT conversion. Hence my HcG suggestion. Short periods of low estrogen do not cause permanent damage. The main concern is joint damage but, it takes a while to degrade a healthy joint.

Try whatever you like. The advantage to aromasin is that their is no aromatase rebound. The advantage to letro is: it lasts longer in the blood, has superior penetration into adipose tissue where aromatase conversion occurs, it is a type II Aromatase inhibitor (AI) which means it only binds to aromatase it does not permanently disable it. This means that aromatase suppression is much faster. Unlike aromasin it does not need to metabolize aromatase which means it binds within 1-2 hours versus aromasin's 6-7 hours.

Also high levels of aromasin can elevate cyclical aromatase protection over time. I doubt it would normally be an issue, but your DHT levels are not exactly ideal. Your time between aromatase cyclical production periods are getting shorter at an increasing rate already. The implementaion of proviron will halt the aromatase cyclical production elevation issue rather quickly.

You make the call it's your body. I can just give you the information to make an informed decision.

 

[Colin297]

You need testosterone for DHT conversion. Hence my HcG suggestion. Short periods of low estrogen do not cause permanent damage. The main concern is joint damage but, it takes a while to degrade a healthy joint.

Try whatever you like. The advantage to aromasin is that their is no aromatase rebound. The advantage to letro is: it lasts longer in the blood, has superior penetration into adipose tissue where aromatase conversion occurs, it is a type II Aromatase inhibitor (AI) which means it only binds to aromatase it does not permanently disable it. This means that aromatase suppression is much faster. Unlike aromasin it does not need to metabolize aromatase which means it binds within 1-2 hours versus aromasin's 6-7 hours.

Also high levels of aromasin can elevate cyclical aromatase protection over time. I doubt it would normally be an issue, but your DHT levels are not exactly ideal. Your time between aromatase cyclical production periods are getting shorter at an increasing rate already. The implementaion of proviron will halt the aromatase cyclical production elevation issue rather quickly.

You make the call it's your body. I can just give you the information to make an informed decision.

Is that a good thing? Do you think proviron is a good idea then?


Also, you say i need testosterone for DHT conversion? But I do have a good testosterone level already and I had hoped that the anti-aromatase drugs will help increase it more (as aromasin is shown to do). Why is that, in your eyes, no sufficient? Is it because, in your opinion, the additional free testosterone (resulting from less e2 conversion) won't, in your opinion, result in DHT conversion, quickly enough naturally, to stimulate recovery? Or am i misconstruing what you mean?

As you said, you can only give me the information. I greatly appreciate that. I just want to understand exactly what you mean before deciding on things

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

all good points HUM, its def something i didnt even see cause i know nothing about finasteride.

I think Dave from Maximus said the other way to increase DHT conversion is to rub T gel on the testicles. It sounds like the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) would work just fine though. I guess it wouldnt matter either if the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) would suppress HPTA since the high E is already doing that.

 

[Colin297]

TBH im somewhat reluctant to do hCG as it may not be necessary and secondly it may actually do damage. Isn't hCG notorious for aromatization, anyway? Or would this not matter so much with the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) on board?

Yeah i had considered using DHT cream actually.

 

[Mr. Humdiddly]

Is that a good thing? Do you think proviron is a good idea then?


Also, you say i need testosterone for DHT conversion? But I do have a good testosterone level already and I had hoped that the anti-aromatase drugs will help increase it more (as aromasin is shown to do). Why is that, in your eyes, no sufficient? Is it because, in your opinion, the additional free testosterone (resulting from less e2 conversion) won't, in your opinion, result in DHT conversion, quickly enough naturally, to stimulate recovery? Or am i misconstruing what you mean?

As you said, you can only give me the information. I greatly appreciate that. I just want to understand exactly what you mean before deciding on things

I am not sure how to make it any clearer. I am not exactly gifted in the verbal communication department.

Let me try explaining it this way. Your HPTA is shutdown as shown by your blood tests. Your HPTA tells your balls to make testosterone. So right now your balls are making very little testosterone. The tiny bit of testosterone is not making it very far into the blood stream due to high levels of aromatase. Because you don't have a bunch of DHT your aromatase is increasing.

DHT is made from testosterone. So either boost your testosterone a lot with HcG or steroids, or inject DHT.

Sometimes my analogies can help.

At the home base (your balls) they are really low on supplies and so you can only train small amounts of trainers. You have very little commando's (DHT) to harass the enemy (estrogen) or attack the enemies base to slow down enemy recruiters (aromatase). So your troops go out and are either recruited to the other side or pinned down till they run out of supplies (inability to bind to receptors).

So you can increase your commandos directly (DHT injects) or increase your troop production(HCG) that way your troops can last long enough to become commando's. By just bombing (AI's) you can kill the enemy recruiters but you still have the issue that you have no troops and no commandos.

Bit ridiculous but, hopefully that helps.

 

[Colin297]

I am not sure how to make it any clearer. I am not exactly gifted in the verbal communication department.

Let me try explaining it this way. Your HPTA is shutdown as shown by your blood tests. Your HPTA tells your balls to make testosterone. So right now your balls are making very little testosterone. The tiny bit of testosterone is not making it very far into the blood stream due to high levels of aromatase. Because you don't have a bunch of DHT your aromatase is increasing.

DHT is made from testosterone. So either boost your testosterone a lot with HcG or steroids, or inject DHT.

Sometimes my analogies can help.

At the home base (your balls) they are really low on supplies and so you can only train small amounts of trainers. You have very little commando's (DHT) to harass the enemy (estrogen) or attack the enemies base to slow down enemy recruiters (aromatase). So your troops go out and are either recruited to the other side or pinned down till they run out of supplies (inability to bind to receptors).

So you can increase your commandos directly (DHT injects) or increase your troop production(HCG) that way your troops can last long enough to become commando's. By just bombing (AI's) you can kill the enemy recruiters but you still have the issue that you have no troops and no commandos.

Bit ridiculous but, hopefully that helps.

LOL, you say you're not gifted in the communication department but after that wonderful analogy i beg to differ!

My misunderstand lies with the fact that, on paper, my Testosterone levels are high.


Serum Testosterone 32.6 nmol/L (10-34)

They actually read as 33.8 in the previous test. So, im pretty much top of the range.

You think i need to supplement more, though, anyway? Between it being top range and the offset increase ill get from an Aromatase inhibitor (AI), won't that be alot of T...

Sorry to drag this out..