Help lowering estrogen. ADVICE NEEDED

[THE-DET-OAK]

thanks fellas coming back at ya.

Hummdidly is a great asset to the board, i enjoy your posts and hope you get your head out of your ass and post more!!!!!! lol i unbderstand though sometimes i need a break too.

I will have to question the HCG recommendation for this circumstance. HCG will further suppress LH and FSH through the negative feedback loop, IMO i dont think he has been shut down hard enough or long enough to warrant the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG).

His total T levels were great just a month ago, that would nbe like taking HCG after 4 weeks of test. I think clomid would suffice at this point for LH and FSH stimulation.

Aromasin will also help boost T levels.

if im missing something you are thinking about HUM straighten me out.

 

[Colin297]

Oak is on the money here. The high estone levels have caused a shutdown of your HPTA. As shown by your FSH and LH levels. I would run letro at 2.5mg ED and implement HCG dosing. This will boost your FSH and LH levels. Once your androgen levels pick up and your estrone levels drop start to taper down the letro very slowly and discontinue the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG).

Then approximately 4 days after your last HCG shot start using clomid for 4 weeks at 100/50/50/25. You should be right as rain in a month with the HCG and letro then another month with clomid to restart your HPTA. To clarify you will still be tapering down the letro slowly while starting the clomid.

Thanks for your input Mr Humdiddy

Why Letro over aromasin?

Also, my LH level is above mid-range surely its just FSH that is the problem here?

Am i wrong in the assumption that its simply estrogenic dominance right now? So wouldn't a run of aromasin or something do the job and let my body self-correct.

Im just afraid of taking all sorts of meds for this as it was putting something in my body (finasteride) that did this to me. Alot of guys on propeciahelp (a forum dedicated to people like me) have ran crazy protocols only to damage themselves more.

So i'm pretty scared of things like HcG. Even taking an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) is new ground for me. My endochrologoist seems reluctant to use these methods

 

[Colin297]

it should do both. Honestly there is debate that the even work at all but most beleive they do.

aromasin has been shown to keep estrogen within range @ 25mg ED in men not taking anything else.

i would not run nolva for long periods, if i ran clomid for long periods it would be at a smaller dose.

with this protocol your hoping to balance them out, then take the drugs away. Hopefully they will stay balanced.

Do you think theres a chance that a month of this stuff would bring me back to where i should be?

Doesn't 25mg cut E2 down like 50%, though?

One more think mate - you recommend using a SERM (s) alongside an Aromatase inhibitor (AI). I'm told arimidex for instance forbids this on their info leaful so im imagining aromasin may also. What do you think yourself?

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Do you think theres a chance that a month of this stuff would bring me back to where i should be?

Doesn't 25mg cut E2 down like 50%, though?

One more think mate - you recommend using a SERM (s) alongside an Aromatase inhibitor (AI). I'm told arimidex for instance forbids this on their info leaful so im imagining aromasin may also. What do you think yourself?

there is a good chance a month of it will bring you in range, the question remains will it stay there? i dont know gonna have to be a trial and error thing.

what do you mean forbids on their info?

 

[RJ]

Det is dead on here dude. Stop overthinking it. I know you're worried but we know only enough to give you suggestions.

Only one I would make is try Toremifene Citrate instead of Nolva and Clomid. This way you only have to take 2 compounds and IMO TC is wayyyy better than both and provides and unreal boost to your libido. 30 days at 30mg.d plus the Aromasin at 25mg.d

If after that you aren't normal, its prolly gonna require more tests, etc.

 

[Colin297]

there is a good chance a month of it will bring you in range, the question remains will it stay there? i dont know gonna have to be a trial and error thing.

what do you mean forbids on their info?

Yeah, i guess.

I mean the information leaflet for adex says you shouldn't use it alongside SERM's. You noted their incompatibility yourself already though so i guess that just proves your point.

 

[Colin297]

Det is dead on here dude. Stop overthinking it. I know you're worried but we know only enough to give you suggestions.

Only one I would make is try Toremifene Citrate instead of Nolva and Clomid. This way you only have to take 2 compounds and IMO TC is wayyyy better than both and provides and unreal boost to your libido. 30 days at 30mg.d plus the Aromasin at 25mg.d

If after that you aren't normal, its prolly gonna require more tests, etc.

When i say libido its more just my erections. I attribute all my problems to the high e2.

I cant help to think a month of aromasin alongside a SERM would be very "anti-estrogen" on my body. I mean, id already be activity inhibiting estrogen via aromasin to a great degree but then the remaining 70%, a good bit of it would be effectively muted by the SERM, would this not be harsh on my body?

 

[RJ]

When i say libido its more just my erections. I attribute all my problems to the high e2.

I cant help to think a month of aromasin alongside a SERM would be very "anti-estrogen" on my body. I mean, id already be activity inhibiting estrogen via aromasin to a great degree but then the remaining 70%, a good bit of it would be effectively muted by the SERM, would this not be harsh on my body?

dude, the SERMs aren't gonna do shit for estro. Did you read Det's explanation. The SERM is basically for the hormonal issues your having, the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) to lower estro whilst doing so. You may not need the SERM, but why wouldn't u want to cover all ur bases since things are outta whack?

Ultimately, you gotta make your own decision here man.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

When i say libido its more just my erections. I attribute all my problems to the high e2.

I cant help to think a month of aromasin alongside a SERM would be very "anti-estrogen" on my body. I mean, id already be activity inhibiting estrogen via aromasin to a great degree but then the remaining 70%, a good bit of it would be effectively muted by the SERM, would this not be harsh on my body?

this is why i suggested aromasin, it is not affected by the SERM like the other 2 are. its not that you can not take the other 2 with SERM's you can, its just the 2 non-steroidal AI's will be less effective in conjuntion with a SERM.

 

[Colin297]

Ok im going to speak to my endo

I'll prob just take the aromasin first and if that doesnt fit me 100% il try the SERM's.


Good enough?

 

[Colin297]

Ok i just got my full results from my last blood test. I had got test levels checked afer all.


Oestradiol 178 pmol/L (28-156)
Serum Testosterone 32.6 nmol/L (10-34)

Serum Androstenedione 7.3 nmol/L (3-15)
17A-Hydrotestosterone 8.0 nmol/L (2.0 - 10.5)
DHEAS 10.1 nmol/L (1.2 - 17.3)
Serum IFG-1 46.8 nmol/L (15-45)

FSH 2.0 U/L (1.5 - 12.4)
LH 5.5 U/L (1.7 - 8.6)
Prolactin 311 mU/L (86-324)

Ferritin 115 ug/L (30 - 400)
Iron 30.7 umol/L (11-28)
TIBC 63.5 umol/L (41-77)
Saturation 48.3% (30 - 40)

Free T4 15.9 pmol/L (12-22)
TSH 1.7 mU/L (0.27 - 4.2)
Free T3 5.7 pmol/L (3.1-6.8)


and an interesting read from my last readings:

RBC (Red Blood Cell) 5.59 e12/1 (3.8 - 5.5)



As you can see. Quite a few out of range (as bolded), all on the high end: E2, IFG-1, Iron, Saturation (???) and even RBC. WTF?

Testosterone still high end too, though which is encouraging.




Does this change any opinions? Is there anyone with good background in these things?

 

[Colin297]

Ok i've been researching the IGF-1 link with estrogen. It seems prominant. I think i can conclude my problems root with elevated e2.

Here's an interesting quote for you muscle chasers -

"anecdotal reports from athletes suggest that the use of estrogen maintenance drugs such as tamoifen may slightly hinder muscle mass gains during steroid therapy"

....basically because estrogen increases IGF-1 which of course is linked back with GH.

steroidsource.net/articles/estrogenrole.htm

Also see:

musculardevelopment.com/component/content/article/1506-testosterone-and-estrogen-increase-satellite-cells.html?start=1


Obviously this doesn't really pertain to me (beyound me ascertaining that my high e2 seems to have caused the elevated IGF-1 levels) but it may be interesting to you guys who pop AI's and anti-estrogens for non-gyno reasons.

Lastly, DHT apparently surpresses IGF-1 so, as i already think, i have low levels of this. Pity my bloods didnt include DHT to vouch for this. Either way less androgens is a natural side of heightened e2 so the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree.

That basically explains everything bar the high iron/saturation levels. Maybe the increase aromatase activity in my liver is linked to the excess storage of iron, although that's just speculation.


EDIT - I also read high saturation levels are linked to estrogen pills (the pill) so this is also vaguely congruent with things i guess!!

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

dude your prolactin is very high-you should find out why. its odd that your thyroid levels are not low in conjuntion with the pralactin being high. there is only 2 things that can make prolactin high. 1 of which is a pituitary tumor. im leaning more towards that being the problem because your T3 and T4 are not low which is usually the case with when other things effect prolactin besides a tumor. usually they are at obscene anounts when it is tumor related but this IMO is most important and worth checking into.

let me sit on the rest of the results for s while and i will comment on them, but the prolactin jumped out at me cause its odd that it is high and thyroid is not low.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

BTW the prolactin is most surely affecting your libido, causing weak erections and penis desensitivity.

 

[Colin297]

dude your prolactin is very high-you should find out why. its odd that your thyroid levels are not low in conjuntion with the pralactin being high. there is only 2 things that can make prolactin high. 1 of which is a pituitary tumor. im leaning more towards that being the problem because your T3 and T4 are not low which is usually the case with when other things effect prolactin besides a tumor. usually they are at obscene anounts when it is tumor related but this IMO is most important and worth checking into.

let me sit on the rest of the results for s while and i will comment on them, but the prolactin jumped out at me cause its odd that it is high and thyroid is not low.

Good post mate

Im getting an MRI for my pituitary in early 2011. So that base will be covered. I do know that high IGF-1 and GH is also associated with pituitary tumours.

But all these things are also simply linked with elevated estrogen....including prolactin. I don't have any of the physical things that would indicate anything other than hormonal imbalance so i hope to God i don't have anything else to worry about

Also, although my prolactin is high there (that test is dated 15/11/10) my previous test indicated a mid-range level (164). That was only a month prior.

That makes me think the probably (hopefully) isn't a problem.

You do realise prolactin changes alot? I mean, it goes up and down before and after sex for example.

Loads of guys get MRI's on propeciahelp but ive yet to see someone actually have the tumour. Hopefully im the same.

Just for the record - my refactory period isn't really affected. I reckon most if not all my problems are based on physical problems (weaker erections), i dont think my sensitivity has changed too much. Hopefully this also indicates that its just the estrogen.

I'm worried though.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

I dont want to make you worry, it does not sound like that is the issue and we agree on that point, I just wanted to make sure that it gets ruled out first and foremost. like i said usually with tumors your levels will be 20x higher than they are suppose too.

Yes prolactin does change all the time, but yours is still really high. I am now going to suggest that you get a dopamine agonist to run in conjuntion with your aromasin. this will be very beneficial i think, even more so than the controlling estrogen. Both are needed here i believe.

prami is the least expensive, do your research on dosing though, you need to bring blood levels up very slowly to ward off a common side effect of upset stomach.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

I still feel like i need to stress the point of the SERM as well. most of us believe they "reset" the system. nolva also lowers IGF-1 so in this case that could be beneficial as well. I know it sounds like a soup of shit, but guys have benefited from this protocol many times and after a strong cycle of progestins and T many have hormonal imbalances such as yours.

 

[Colin297]

I dont want to make you worry, it does not sound like that is the issue and we agree on that point, I just wanted to make sure that it gets ruled out first and foremost. like i said usually with tumors your levels will be 20x higher than they are suppose too.

Yes prolactin does change all the time, but yours is still really high. I am now going to suggest that you get a dopamine agonist to run in conjuntion with your aromasin. this will be very beneficial i think, even more so than the controlling estrogen. Both are needed here i believe.

prami is the least expensive, do your research on dosing though, you need to bring blood levels up very slowly to ward off a common side effect of upset stomach.

Excellent. I've actually ordered dostinex (cabergoline).

I'm told it should have little to no side effects. Any experience on this?


I might "prep" with dostinex for 2-3 weeks before starting an AI/SERM combo.

Im pretty sure all this will be out of depth of my endo, though, but whatever is necessary eh!

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

ive never ran one, although there are benefits if its not needed i tend not to run stuff unless necessary. caber is best in pill form, liquid is not good.............did you get pill form?

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

I also dont see prepping as a bad idea, it wouldnt be a bad idea to prep with aromasin too though-I would jump on the aromasin ASAP