hmB protecting cycle gains

[book]

hey,
long time reader...first post.
recently completed testE(aVar) 12(5) week cycle. arimidex through cycle and pct and a nolva post cycle therapy (pct).
unfortunately, during a decline bench set in week 12, I suffered a hernia in my abs. scared me. I could actually feel the intestine and push it back in...hurt.
so, completely left the gym. rested. took it easy at work. let the wife be on top. so on. completed cycle and pct going well. my stomach feels much better after 6 weeks. heading back to the gym Monday, taking it easy. hoping I won't need to go back to the doctor...
thing is, I was 264 at the height of my gains this cycle, and 6 weeks later, i'm still at 257. one percent up in bf (and the aVar really cut me down...good stuff I think).
no gym. just against body weight exercises, stretching and isometrics. I feel strong and look good...Monday will tell if I kept any strength gains.
I've never kept gains like this, and all I have done different is hmB. found some sport shakes I can take to work and chug when I want. I was an athlete in college and they gave us stuff called "juven" at the time, which I now know is just hmB with gluta and arga. the shakes have hmB. I drink 2 a day, along with my regular creatine, nitro, mixed protein regimine. the hmB is the only thing that has changed from previous cycles.
I really think the stuff works to protect gains. has anyone else come across this?
I will be updating this post later next week, to see if the strength kept up, and hopefully my hernia stayed down.
lift on gymrats

 

[Austinite]

Welcome. No. If that was the case, L-Luciene would do the same.

 

[book]

hmmm...I know hmB is the metabolized form of l-leucine...but the body can only convert so much. you end up pissing out most of the supplements you take anyway. there are documented studies of chemo and radiation patients retaining more lean mass with hmB vs. placebo.
only three things changed this cycle. my isometric and body-weight resistance routine versus the gym, pain and worrying, and hmB...it has to be one of them...
I've kept my joints and ligaments strong on my hiatus. i'll check back in next week after hitting the gym again.
thanks

 

[Austinite]

Can you share those studies?

 

[book]

in bed ridden patients by sloan-kittering:
mskcc.org/cancer-care/herb/hmb
cancer by VA:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=11975938&dopt=AbstractPlus
in healthy patients for hematological purposes by NIH:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15080599
in AIDS patients by Nassau County Medical Center ( I know right...but it is an accepted study)
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=10850936&dopt=AbstractPlus
most of the studies were done with the combination of gluta and arga...which I get in excess with my brand of bcaa whey. a lot of quality proteins add gluta and arga.

 

[book]

to really know, I would have to be under the same circumstances twice more (which I pray to god never happens) and try l-leucine once and sans hmb/leucine the second...

 

[Austinite]

Cant access all those, but that first one you sent says it needs further investigation AND improvements in protein synthesis observed with arginine and glutamine.

 

[book]

by the way, I did enjoy reading your compilation of articles posted. it kind of struck me however, that you said you could write a book on peptides, yet offered no voice. any peptide you take in would be broken down by the body...even if it were to be reformed into it's exact state again. it's kind of (not exactly) like your argument that leucine is as good as hmb...when an abundance of bcaa's will let your body form whatever amino chain it wants without overpaying for a "peptide"

 

[Austinite]

by the way, I did enjoy reading your compilation of articles posted. it kind of struck me however, that you said you could write a book on peptides, yet offered no voice. any peptide you take in would be broken down by the body...even if it were to be reformed into it's exact state again. it's kind of (not exactly) like your argument that leucine is as good as hmb...when an abundance of bcaa's will let your body form whatever amino chain it wants without overpaying for a "peptide"

Juiced Porkchop has a sticky that is very informative. I don't like to speak too much about things I don't have a plethora of experience in. Wouldn't be fair to the readers.

I'll discuss HMB later. Need to prepare for an endo visit tomorrow and it's getting late. But don't overthink HMB or anything else, chances are, no matter who is right or wrong, results are somewhat negligible. There's no magic out there.

 

[book]

yeah, shouldn't really have included the first one, but all the others were government pages (except Nassau)
try this
hmb.org/publications/publication_categories.cfm?PublicationCategoryID=2
should let you link on...
by the way..."further investigation" is study-speak for: we're on to something here...lets pursue it. if nothing happened...it would be a dead end.
and I already explained the gluta and arga...which any protein supplementer already gets in abundance...

 

[book]

in juiced porkchops defense...peptide is incorrectly used...see
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peptide
and then
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretagogue

 

[Austinite]

You can't pay me enough money to visit wikipedia or quote it, ever.

 

[book]

ha, ha...fair enough
ironmanmagazine.com/growth-hormone-secretagogues/

 

[Austinite]

Come on book. Stick to pubmed and the likes. Articles are mere opinions and rendered fruitless.

 

[book]

fair enough again
I was only trying to illustrate that secretagogues are peptides...but not really peptides...considering that only a handful of chemicals known are secretagogues, and there are innumerable peptide possibilities, and that secretagogues are useless unless done by injection.
here is a actually a very nice article on how secretagogues work, and their effects on you and I through our lifetinmes...it is a good study. gives a good understanding...
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2544358/
I agree with you that there is no magic out there...but as a guy who's stomach really hurts and is just trying to keep some of the gains he's made...I think hmb is working...and i'm wondering if it has worked for anyone else...that's why I started this thread.
thanks for the conversation austenite. good luck in everything you do

 

[Austinite]

Damnit, book. Now you got my brain going in a million directions so I'm not going to wait to respond...

So Leucine, in the presence of both; a keto-isocaproate & isovaleryl-CoA produces HMB. Only 5% of absorbed lucine will result in HMB, which is why we go directly to the supplement. It's true, HMB is more powerful than Lucine, similar to N-Acetyl-Cysteine and its conversion to glutathione. One of the things we have to remember while researching is that not all bodies are made equal. If you suffer a muscle-wasting-condition such as AIDS for example, you're likely to benefit far more than a healthy individual. The loss vs. gain on a chart would indicate an aggressive increase in an AIDS patient than that of a healthy person. To keep it simple, think of a hydrated person and a dehydrated person. If you give them each a glass of water and run a urinalysis to check hydration levels, you'll notice that the dehydrated individual will show a much larger improvement than the already-hydrated person.

One of the main goals that we try to accomplish is finding a single compound for a single solution. In my years of research I've found this to be a merely impossible task. Such is the case with HMB. It's simply not effective enough solely and needs to be coupled with other compounds for an effective-synergistic-response. A single gram of HMB is considered to be equal to 20 grams of Leucine. But another problem with researchers, is that they have tunnel vision and focus on one benefit. Unfortunately, and I know this is not what you want to hear, in the muscle protein synthesis department, the differences are negligible when compared on a mg to mg basis. This is true until HMB is coupled with another compound. When HMB is coupled with Resveratrol, your insulin levels drop and "muscle cell glucose" uptake climbs. This is due to the dual-stimulation of sirtuin 1 enzyme. (this is an outstanding gene to research if you're interested).

Also, Lucine is the primary ingredient in BCAA's for a reason. However, going back to things that folks seem to miss, is that Leucine and/or HMB in high doses also produce ammonia. Another reason why I don't use BCAA's. Although Citrulline and Glutamine will combat ammonia, it's still something to be concerned with. Leucine is found abundant in our daily diets. Even poor nutritional plan (or lack of a plan, rather). A single cup of rice contains 400 mg of Leucine. It's also in all types of meat, beans, nuts and any wheat products. These are generally (especially for those who are bulking) plenty of intake.

The only real benefit I see to HMB is the activation of mTOR (mammalian target of rapamycin) which regulates cell growth. But the fact is that any amino acid can do this. Actually, you'd get better stimulation of mTOR by coupling Citrulline with Arginine. Heck... Arginine alone will increase resting growth hormone, hence my constant recommendation to take a dose before bed.

Like most amino acids, the half life is short; 2.5 hours in the case of HMB. So you're going to have to produce a compounding effect to get decent results, so frequent intake will be necessary.

So in closing, there are certainly benefits to HMB, however, it is not really unique in any way and high doses are required for decent outcome. I recommend this for older folks, but anyone under 55 and healthy will likely not notice a tremendous and worthwhile difference when compared to an increased leucine intake.