If i were to acsidently inject into a vein

[Nutri-Wrestler]

damn, i always thought 3cc or more of air will kill someone

 

[SMACKAVELI]

Vein or Artery, I'm still gonna aspirate. Better to be safe then sorry.

 

[GOON]

Excerpt of Milo's statements:

<<The site being injected was the triceps, but the needle inadvertently went straight into a vein. Almost instantly, I fell to the ground feeling the most pain I have ever felt in my life. I can only describe it as lightning striking me in the chest. For 30 seconds, I couldn't breathe. I thought I was going to die. I was later told that the oil had gone into my heart and lungs, and that I had gone into respiratory shock.

<<Eventually, I was able to breathe again, but it was labored and very painful.
I was so weak I lay on the floor for two hours, unable to call 911. I finally crawled to the phone, called 911 and was rushed into intensive care. The doctors diagnosed that I had congestive heart failure, my vital signs were weak and my family was told I had only a 50-50 chance of survival.

<<For 24 hours, my life hung in the balance; then my vital signs began to get stronger. I was in intensive care for three days, and when I came out of the hospital I was totally exhausted and had lost 20 pounds.

<<I saw the doctor three weeks later and he told me I could begin training, but I still don't know whether I can compete again. Whether I do or not, I will never use Synthol again. It nearly killed me.>>

THE injection was actually given by his wife but the story has been changed to protector from any legal actions.

These events occurred in July, and although Milos was telling friends at the Y2K NPC USA in Las Vegas that he was O. K., his preparation for the Mr. O had definitely been derailed.

The IFBB has added Synthol to its banned-substance list and is investigating the means by which a test can be formulated to detect its use.

I dont understand, his wife couldent call 911, that story sounds a little fishy

 

[finafreak]

No that wont work, they just passed patient privacy laws in Washington called HIPAA. Pretty brutal like 100,000$ fines and jail time if patient info got out. The hospitals I rotate between have had massive education and a zero tolerance policy on this. Everything with pt info or name goes into a shred bin. I just cant risk it I'll see what I can do.

great post bro!my question lets say i injected into a vein,does that mean all the juice that went inside the vein is gone to waste,and not being absorbed at all?

 

[SMACKAVELI]

I dont understand, his wife couldent call 911, that story sounds a little fishy

He said it like that so his wife would'nt be charged or implemented on any charges if he gets in trouble or dies. He had to make it sound like she was'nt there. She did call 911, she's the one who saved his life. If she was'nt there, then he would of tried crawling to the phone. He had to tell the interviewer that story so she would'nt get into any trouble.

 

[GOON]

bump^^ luciasbrown

 

[buffdoc]

That just doesnt make sense, he was told he had congestive heart failure. That effects the left side to the heart. A pulmonary embolus effects the lungs and backs up into the rt heart. And who knows what synthol does to the lungs anyway, I mean its injected to cause swelling of the muscle that its injected into, what will that do to the lungs I have no idea, also and who knows if he is being completely forthright with all the details after all what vein in the tricep is big enough to accept a 3cc bolus without collapsing first. It just doesnt pass the sniff test. Ill humbly apologize if Im wrong- if anyone can find in any research or case studies where someone died or was injured by an oil embolism, I certainly havent found any and it doesnt jive with my real world experience or my education. As I said before its not a bad idea to aspirate, but to worry about dying from hitting a vein, No way. Its like the BS that someone died from shooting an air bubble up his arm. We have all heard that one right, impossible unless its like 100cc or something crazy. I think alot people honestly believe that is possible and continue to repeat it with realistic and colorful stories of someone having this happen to boot. It has no basis in reality and I inject air into peoples veins all the time. So bottom line, aspirate so you dont waste your gear, but dont worry and dont call 911.

Haven't you heard of fat emboli? This occurs sometimes when there are long bone fractures and fat (ie, oil) from the marrow cavity gets into the vasculature. People die from these.
The problem with oil emboli (see my earlier post on this) is most likely reactive pulmonary vasospasm. This is probably what occured with the Synthol guy.
This vasoconstriction can precipitate acute right heart failure, leading to a low cardiac output state (ie, shock), with resultant left ventricular ischemia, and pulmonary edema. Also, the pulmonary vasospasm itself may lead to transudation of fluid across the alveolar membranes (again, pulmonary edema).
I agree that small amounts of air are benign. However, much less than the 100cc you quote can lead to a right-heart "air lock" with cardiovascular collapse. Air can also cause the reactive pulmonary vasospasm mentioned above. This is why seated craniotomies are monitored with Dopplers, etc. Air can be entrained into the venous system through opened cranial veins positioned above the level of the heart, and cause morbidity or mortality in the patient.
In short, everyone be vigilant, always aspirate, if you do get a little oil into a vein, you may have some shortness of breath, pain with inspiration, and/or cough; if it doesn't resolve quickly, call 911. You can always refuse transport to the hospital if your symptoms have resolved by the time they arrive.
I disagree with luciousbrown's attitude about people not dying from oil/fat emboli: it has and does occur. (I'm a board certified anesthesiologist).

 

[buffdoc]

People need to see this and be careful. There's some inaccurate info being posted.

 

[luciasbrown]

People need to see this and be careful. There's some inaccurate info being posted.

To compare injection of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) with long bone fracture fat emoblism syndrome is a definitely an enormous stretch to the point of being edited. Do you know what a fat embolism is? I mean if you lump these two in the same category, then maybe you were edited during med school classes. Of course I know what it is, I do this for a living, this a good example of edited. I agree that aspirating is a good idea, but if youre saying that someone is going to get die from a pulmonary embolism I respectfully disagree. I'll retract the 100cc air injection statement although, it does take a very significant amount far more than can be accidentally injected. As for the fat embolism syndrome- to conclude that injecting an oil will follow the same pathogenesis of a long bone fracture is a bit presumptuous. Fat embolism generated by the body is different than an injection of oil. Current literature has now clearly described the embolization of marrow products, as well as the inflammatory cascade resulting in alterations of pulmonary function. However, there is still controversy about whether the fat originates from the marrow (embolization theory) or from chylomicra in the blood (intravascular theory). The second theory holds that alteration of fats in the blood leads to formation of large fat droplets which then embolize to the lungs. This hypothesis might explain the occurrence of non-traumatic cases of FES. Persistent confusion is evidenced by the title of a good review article called, "Fat Embolism Syndrome, A Puzzling Phenomenon."1 It is likely that FES is a variant of ARDS, with specific differences between them not clear. They have similar etiology, clinical presentation, and treatment. But they differ in severity of lung damage and prognosis with the mortality of FES approximately 10% to 15% and of ARDS approximately 50%. They are now both considered causes of "clinical pneumonitis" or "noncardiogenic edema" and are under the clinical spectrum heading of "acute lung injury."
The amount of oil that is going to be accidentally injected will easily be broken doen by pulmonary lipase and pulmonary intravascular macrophages. I dont think Im being wreckless by lowering the anxiety level of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) users due to misinformation.
Since oil based nonsolulabile contrasts, medicine delivering emulsions, etc... are used in treatments there is room for debate. Since I believe I believe in evidence based medicine and Im sure you do to, surely with the millions of people who have used oil aas, there should be several documented cases in the literature for us discuss. I have found ZERO and only a couple that can somewhat relate. Perhaps you have access to other databases than I. Please back up your criticism, itd be a healthy debate and no flames please. Were both trying to help people and I agree better safe than sorry with the aspiration, but people neednt freak out.

The following should shed some perspective, one is a rare documentation of a vegetable oil reaction they describe it as the first documented. As I noted before oil from outside the body should not be cofunsed with oil emboli from inside the body and its biochemical associations, and the second was a patient who accidentally received 20cc of oil and still lived.1: Intern Med. 1995 May;34(5):380-3. Related Articles, Links


Fat embolism syndrome caused by vegetable oil injection.

Kiyokawa H, Utsumi K, Minemura K, Kasuga I, Torii Y, Yonemaru M, Ichinose Y, Toyama K.

First Department of Internal Medicine, Tokyo Medical College.

We present a case of fat embolism syndrome following vegetable oil injection for augmentation mammaplasty. Although vegetable oil is a stable neutral fat under usual storage conditions, it caused fat embolism and pulmonary injury in this patient. We investigated this mechanism by compound analysis of the injected oil, transbronchial lung biopsy and special staining of alveolar macrophages. This is the first description of the human response to vegetable oil injection. These data should aid in the investigation of the side effects of many types of lipids which may be applied to humans for various purposes in the future.

PMID: 7647406 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] J Toxicol Clin Toxicol. 1998;36(7):733-6. Related Articles, Links


Accidental, intravenous infusion of a peanut oil-based medication.

Seifert SA, Dart RC, Kaplan EH.

Rocky Mountain Poison and Drug Center, Denver, Colorado 80220-6800, USA. sseifert@pol.net

OBJECTIVES: To describe a case of fat embolus syndrome with lipoid pneumonia resulting from intravenous infusion of lipid and to illustrate the potential for accidental intravenous administration of vegetable oil-based progesterone preparations in the treatment of oncology patients. CASE REPORT: A patient with recurrent ovarian carcinoma accidentally received approximately 20 mL (0.29 mL/kg) of a peanut oil-based methylprogesterone product intravenously via infusion pump over 24 hours. The patient developed a lipoid pneumonia with dyspnea, cough, hypoxia, radiographic infiltrates, and a pleural effusion. She was hospitalized for 4 days, and signs and symptoms resolved over 2 weeks following steroids and supportive care. DISCUSSION: Experience with accidental or intentional intravenous lipid overdose in humans is limited. Typical findings of fat embolus syndrome are similar to lipid aspiration, with respiratory distress, hypoxia, and pulmonary infiltrates. In contrast to aspiration, however, fat embolus syndrome results in lipogranulomas surrounding blood vessels, rather than air passages, and potentially produces cerebrovascular, accident-like symptoms. Management of fat embolus syndrome is similar to that for lipid aspiration. However, as seen in this case, fat embolus syndrome typically resolves over several weeks as opposed to the 3-month to 1-year period seen with aspiration lipoid pneumonias. CONCLUSIONS: Accidental intravenous infusion of vegetable oil-based products is a potential complication of the increased use of intravenous progesterones.

PMID: 9865244 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


So just dont inject 20cc of oil into your veins
Since the oils used in Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) are neutral they are different than human released oils, which cause a myriad of reactions. These are abstracts, but all the literature reads like this. I hate to burst peoples egos, but cmon, with all the stupid people out there injecting AAS, people dying would happen every week. The fact is- I dont have 20 pages to post on every subject to rule out criticism on minor points. My whole point to all of this is that it is not reasonable to conclude that accidental injection of oil based Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) into the vein poses a risk. And I work extensively with Pulmonary embolosm, dvt, cardiac, vascular disease patients, etc... edited

 

[luciasbrown]

And synthol is not a neutral oil, it causes imflammation and is not easily broken down like Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) oils.

And I guess people who receive their nutrition by IV only receive carbs and protein,----no fat

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

I agree with the inaccurate info being posted, but by whom, that is the question. So lets let the people see this.

i think LB knows his stuff along these lines. everyone backs him up and thanks him for his knowledge, including the mods. i doubt he would post innacurate information, and nothing i see is innacurate......unless you want to nitpick and create situations where one in a million cases occur just to prove him wrong.

 

[Rhino58]

Wow, i never knew that.

 

[bigjay00]

damn, i always thought 3cc or more of air will kill someone

nope. takes up to 10cc's intramusculary

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

Bump for buffdocs' documented cases, meanwhile Ill go back treating people with cardiovascular problems. When I need someone to get sleepy, then Ill ask him.

just take some xanax or ambien. no need to bother the doc.

 

[Feli Fly]

...To the other point on whether its a waste if it goes in the vein, I believe it is, but this is a little outside of my scope. I would assume that the liver would quickly filter it out and your blood serum levels of test would rapidly elevate for a short period of time. Thats an educated guess, I havent seen any studies one way or the other on this.

I'm not sure this theory really holds water in all cases (or any)...

When you successfully inject IM, where do you think the injected materials end up anyways? It all finds its way back to the bloodstream via lymphatics.

I guess I do see your point if short-lived compounds which are foreign to the body (ie methandrostenolone or stanozolol) were injected; they may have a greater chance of escaping hepatic breakdown for a few more hours. However, if an esterified steroid or any other long half life compound entered a vein, I don't see why this is a big deal. It will end up in the blood stream soon enough and pass through the hepatic system multiple times whether injected IV or IM.

To be sure no one reads this wrong, I am obviously not recommending anyone inject IV or not aspirate each shot... LOL. I am just saying that the hepatic filtering of foreign substances likely occurs regardless.

 

[jb160]

Bottom line............

Just aspirate to be safe and if you inject in a vein don't freak out at first, give yourself a chance to calm down and stay by a phone.

 

[GOON]

Bottom line............

Just aspirate to be safe and if you inject in a vein don't freak out at first, give yourself a chance to calm down and stay by a phone.

that pretty much says it all besides the technical shit

 

[Feli Fly]

Bottom line............

Just aspirate to be safe and if you inject in a vein don't freak out at first, give yourself a chance to calm down and stay by a phone.

Yes, and if you do hit one for some reason and begin a coughing fit, taking (probably chewing) a couple aspirin is a very good idea.

 

[luciasbrown]

For the record, I encourage aspirating. So alot of my argument is just technical shit as mentioned above. I was warned against flaming as well and will not engage in that behavior again I edited the post. Next time Ill just take a deep breath and relax and my point on this is somewhat moot anyhow and may encourage people to not aspirate which is not my intent. Academic masturbation could describe those posts and Yes, just aspirate, but dont get freaked out.

 

[Fernando89]

Usually you will know when you hit one. I was told that when you hit a vein you sometimes get a funny taste in your mouth. Has anyone else heard this?

Yes when ever you inject anything into a vein you WILL taste it