Is your TT trough reading, really your trough? Or actually close to your Peak???

[Mprtz]

halfape, you are correct in that if the goal is to maximize overall average test levels and the doctor determines the dosage based on trough levels, that injecting every 3.5 days will put you at a slight disadvantage over injecting every 7 days.

 

[halfape211]

halfape, you are correct in that if the goal is to maximize overall average test levels and the doctor determines the dosage based on trough levels, that injecting every 3.5 days will put you at a slight disadvantage over injecting every 7 days.

Thanks Mprtz.
To elaborate: Yes.., for those that want the max allowable TT in their body the 7 day wait has an advantage. However, I don't think it is a slight difference. I'm not as smart as 'Sheldon Cooper" or "halfwit", but I think it is a huge difference. My calculations tell me that with a E3.5 day and a 3.5 day wait, a person's TT is twice that of a seven day wait at the time of bloodtest. So you/we are using a TT bloodtest that is approximately twice the real trough TT reading to treat yourself. I could easily be off by some, but I think my numbers are reasonably good. And even without math if (A) is true ((That I think others agree that there is not much difference in your TT at time of injection whether using E3.5D or E7D)). Then (B) is true. (B) is it ((that It seems to be logical that your TT reduced (decayed) twice as much in 7 day wait as it would have in 3.5 day wait time)). These are approximations, but the theory should be valid.

I will go back and look over Halfwit's algebraic wizardry soon.

Lastly, I think this is important, because the advantage is not just being able to get the max TT, for appearance, etc. The advantage is that by finding your true TT trough (not average trough), you get your TT levels to the proper levels suggested by the medical community. There are health benefits, proven by studies, to having your TT level as close to Optimum as possible. Usually between 1000 and 1200

 

[halfwit]

Yes oh yes, the day before your next injection is technically "your trough". But Doctors ask us to wait 7 days so there is a certain amount of decay, so the trough reflects a week of decay. A 7 day wait (decay) is the 'measuring stick', the 'standard' used by the medical community to measure our trough. The total TT in your body at time of injection is about the same, whether you inject daily, E3.5D or E7D, as most of the TT in your body is a build up of the last 8 weeks. But we need to use a 7 day wait to get a real trough IMHO; to not be at a disadvantage when measuring our TT; to use the same measuring standard that our Doctors use to evaluate us, not to be on a different page from our doctors.
Another example is: What if you were injecting every second day? Now your "trough" actually your Peak!! You would not really have a true trough. As far as E3.5D as a good protocol , I agree 1000% on that.

PS Halfwit: I appreciate your civil and professional tone used in this thread.

Ok, so what I think you're getting hung up on is trying to afford yourself the highest possible TT without being smacked on the hand by your doc because you went slightly out of the range they want to see you at.

That does make sense, yes. However, what really matters for how you feel and even look is the median, or average value you sit at over time. This is why I mentioned a steady state value, as that's the place where you're going to ultimately be spending most of your time anyway. Sure, you could even go with the original doctor preferred method of 400mg every 3-4 weeks, and feel GODLY for a few days, then feel like death as those hormones metabolize out your system. You'd have a total testosterone of around 2500ng+/dL for a while, but then crash down to around 200ng/dL.

Luckily, medical science is catching up to bro-science (sadly, the bb'ing community knew more for a long time in the mainstream) and they're catching on to how smaller doses do actually make things better for us if they're more frequently added. That's because if your hormones are stable, your body doesn't have to continually compensate.

So yes, if your doctor has you only an E7D protocol, it would be in your best interests to tell them that you would like to go with E3.5D as it will help smooth things out for you long-term. There are exceptions to this, but that falls into the realm outside TRT.

I personally feel and I have come to this conclusion like many others that what really matters in the grand scheme of things is how you feel when all is said and done. If your protocol has you at a peak of around 600ng/dL and you feel fantastic? More power to you. If you find that you require more, then as long as your doc is fine - go for it. That's the hard part of TRT; finding the right dose to fit your personal needs and lifestyle.

To answer the speculation about EOD, it's actually almost identical to E3.5D with respect to numbers as the doses are smaller. It really is only a big deal with much shorter esters that have half-lives in 2 day intervals.

 

[halfape211]

Ok, so what I think you're getting hung up on is trying to afford yourself the highest possible TT without being smacked on the hand by your doc because you went slightly out of the range they want to see you at.

You can always increase your wait time to make your test results less. I'm not looking for a way to be on more T. I can do that anyways. But that's a different topic and different goal. So I want to say this as nicely as I can because you're a great guy, but no, that's not what I'm saying. This is what I said:
"Lastly, I think this is important, because the advantage is not just being able to get the max TT, for appearance, etc. The advantage is that by finding your true TT trough (not average trough), you get your TT levels to the proper levels suggested by the medical community. There are health benefits, proven by studies, to having your TT level as close to Optimum as possible. Usually between 1000 and 1200"

I personally feel and I have come to this conclusion like many others that what really matters in the grand scheme of things is how you feel when all is said and done. If your protocol has you at a peak of around 600ng/dL and you feel fantastic? More power to you. If you find that you require more, then as long as your doc is fine - go for it. That's the hard part of TRT; finding the right dose to fit your personal needs and lifestyle.

I think it is very important we are getting a correct reading on our TT. I don't want to use incorrect TT readings, to help me judge my level of treatment. (Example - doctor tells me I am at 600, when I really am at 400.) I wouldn't want a Doctor to lie to me or for me to use an incorrect wait time which skews the TT reading. I want to know as close as possible what my real TT number is. And I think most would want to know the correct number. For those who are happy with their TRT treatment, would they be happier and healthier if they were at the correct TT level? They may never know if they might be happier, if they continue using an incorrect TT number. People at low level of T, are more prone to certain diseases and illnesses than those with levels closer to safe TRT optimal TT levels. I think we all agree on this and there are medical studies to prove this. For those who are happy and not interested in re-thinking their wait times, I truly am happy for you. But for many of us who just want to be sure that they are giving themselves the best chance to be as healthy as possible. I encourage you to get the information and make up your own mind. I want to say that Halfwit and Megatron have been greatest, most helpful people that I have met on this forum. And without their help and generosity, I would still be suffering. So I do not wish to seem at odds with Halfwit, because I'm sure Halfwit only wants the best for members of this forum. I just happen to feel strongly that a 7 day wait time is a more accurate and healthy approach and will debate this until I am proven wrong. If I am proven wrong, that's fine too. All I want is for me and others to be as healthy as possible.
Lastly, I encourage everyone to put some thought into this and use whatever wait time you feel is good for you. Feel free to add to this thread, if you have information that might help or need clarification, etc. I hope Halfwit (AKA Sheldon Cooper) will chime in whenever he wants. (Again, I mean this as a compliment)

 

[Rockya!]

All three of you fellas are absolutely great and very helpful. I am new to the board but have read a lot of your posts in forums, even before I became a member. I thank all three of you for the info I will be applying to my trt regimen once I get started.

 

[halfape211]

All three of you fellas are absolutely great and very helpful. I am new to the board but have read a lot of your posts in forums, even before I became a member. I thank all three of you for the info I will be applying to my trt regimen once I get started.

Thank you. I'm not exactly stupid, but Megatron and Halfwit know about a kabillion more things than I know. Follow their posts and you will learn, grasshopper.