Juced and Jimi Talk Juice....

[DipKing]

Excellent question, DK. First of all, I have no idea about the situation of the member, but that is good advice above.

Lol! That was you who said that!

Interesting. The reason I ask is I have been experiencing problems myself. Much like Cbman, I finished post cycle therapy (pct), no use of hCG in cycle, for a simple test/tbol cycle and felt relatively fine for months until recently. I started noticing the need to drink coffee several times a day, total lack of appetite literally having to force feed around half of what I was used to, and embarrassingly ED problems that persist until late evenings. I got blood tests and sure enough my test was only 397 ng/dl. This is within range, yes, but being a young man still I know it should be higher and it sure isn't optimal. ED should be the last thing on my mind. I'm willing to be a guinea pig and see how well this works since we never heard back from Cbman.

 

[Uso]

So much to read... So little time!

 

[Austin1]

Lol! That was you who said that!

Interesting. The reason I ask is I have been experiencing problems myself. Much like Cbman, I finished post cycle therapy (pct), no use of hCG in cycle, for a simple test/tbol cycle and felt relatively fine for months until recently. I started noticing the need to drink coffee several times a day, total lack of appetite literally having to force feed around half of what I was used to, and embarrassingly ED problems that persist until late evenings. I got blood tests and sure enough my test was only 397 ng/dl. This is within range, yes, but being a young man still I know it should be higher and it sure isn't optimal. ED should be the last thing on my mind. I'm willing to be a guinea pig and see how well this works since we never heard back from Cbman.

lol. I just opened that thread you linked. Sorry, forgot about that thread.

Well, best of luck to you man. Keep us posted please.

 

[Frank White]

Thoughts on how high your test level has to be before shutdown? Of course hard to quantify...

 

[DreDay187]

Thoughts on how high your test level has to be before shutdown? Of course hard to quantify...

You mean at what dosages shutdown begins to occur?

 

[halfwit]

Great post jimithing. Much respect for both of you.

x2

Hoping this thread helps spread some of that knowledge.

 

[Austin1]

^ So far so good. I'll be back tomorrow for round 2! Awesome thread.

 

[Mad- scientist]

so many smart guys in one thread. Lol if I could only ask for personal advice on life situations on here to I would be set! Lol you could all be my Dr. Phills

 

[JimiThing]

What is your optimal PCT for the standard cycle Jimi?
How you you feel about 1 SERM for PCT versus 2 or 3 SERMS as a PCT?

My optimal PCT is a clomid/nolva combo. I really enjoy this topic because I can speak on it not only from a scientific perspective but a personal experience perspective based on the evolution of PCT as well. You see when I started in this game pct was clomid. Just clomid. In fact thats what was used on cycle t prevent gyno as well. No ai's, no tamox. Clomid was it. As things evolved nolva came into the picture and eventually the clomid /nova pct came in to play. Having experienced both clomid only and clomid nolva pct's ( iI even tried nolva only once as well) I can say this - the combo is more effective. This combined with literally thousands of case studies published by the likes of Dr Scally noting the same thing: the combo being more effective. Using both you get agonist and antagonist activity at the e receptor in selective tissue which seems to work more effectively than one or the other. Also I believe it is prudent to note that nolvadex seems to more effective at inducing the production of LH while clomid more effective (when compared to one another) at inducing the production of FSH.
I also have gotten into the habit of adding 2 additional weeks of just nolvadex at the end of my post cycle therapy (pct). This is for a couple reasons. First of all we are all different and to nail down 100% the exact proper start time for our pct is difficult as the rate at which we metabolize or dispose of testosterone varies somewhat individual to individual. Adding the 2 weeks at the end is sort of an insurance policy if you will. Also I have found from personal experience when running a 19 nor steroid like deca or tren recovery is more difficult. The addition of these 2 weeks seems to go a long way in helping this.
So my PCT looks like this :
Nolva: 40/20/20/20/20/20
Clomid:70/35/35/35

How about you Juced? Whats your normal PCT protocol?

 

[Uso]

Hope to see if y'all can shed some light on how AAS affects our bodies negative feedback loops? How does length of cycle and amounts use in cycle change these affects on feedback loops?

 

[Gym-Dog]

Error, I am dumb.

You may think your dumb, but you make me LOL.

 

[DrHouse]

Thoughts on how high your test level has to be before shutdown? Of course hard to quantify...

Any amount of testosterone (put into your body) would cause shutdown. Possibly not complete. I think it would be better to think of how little could you use without complete shutdown.

 

[Austin1]

My optimal PCT is a clomid/nolva combo. I really enjoy this topic because I can speak on it not only from a scientific perspective but a personal experience perspective based on the evolution of PCT as well. You see when I started in this game pct was clomid. Just clomid. In fact thats what was used on cycle t prevent gyno as well. No ai's, no tamox. Clomid was it. As things evolved nolva came into the picture and eventually the clomid /nova pct came in to play. Having experienced both clomid only and clomid nolva pct's ( iI even tried nolva only once as well) I can say this - the combo is more effective. This combined with literally thousands of case studies published by the likes of Dr Scally noting the same thing: the combo being more effective. Using both you get agonist and antagonist activity at the e receptor in selective tissue which seems to work more effectively than one or the other. Also I believe it is prudent to note that nolvadex seems to more effective at inducing the production of LH while clomid more effective (when compared to one another) at inducing the production of FSH.
I also have gotten into the habit of adding 2 additional weeks of just nolvadex at the end of my post cycle therapy (pct). This is for a couple reasons. First of all we are all different and to nail down 100% the exact proper start time for our pct is difficult as the rate at which we metabolize or dispose of testosterone varies somewhat individual to individual. Adding the 2 weeks at the end is sort of an insurance policy if you will. Also I have found from personal experience when running a 19 nor steroid like deca or tren recovery is more difficult. The addition of these 2 weeks seems to go a long way in helping this.
So my PCT looks like this :
Nolva: 40/20/20/20/20/20
Clomid:70/35/35/35

How about you Juced? Whats your normal PCT protocol?

Well that's interesting. Might be a small world... The PCT extension idea with Nolva became intriguing to me when a friend of mine started advising folks to do so. He is also Jimmy (not jimi) and recommends that exact protocol.

Probably just great minds thinking alike! Great post and outstanding observation with LH vs FSH production varying the compounds. True, which is why Clomid is often used to aid fertility for men.

 

[juced_porkchop]

Pct is a waste of money. My body knows when I'm done with my cycle to just change back how it was before

Sure your body will recover over time, if it was going to recover it will with or without post cycle therapy (pct), that is not the point...
the speed of recovery when your test levels are crashed post cycle is VERY important.
anyway I thank you for your view point, but I do not agree.

 

[DreDay187]

Sure your body will recover over time, if it was going to recover it will with or without post cycle therapy (pct), that is not the point...
the speed of recovery when your test levels are crashed post cycle is VERY important.
anyway I thank you for your view point, but I do not agree.

I hope that was satire in his post but if not you're right on the money, we do not agree on views

 

[juced_porkchop]

2 SERMs I wholeheartedly agree with. They each perform slightly different functions and a synergistic effect is noticed when running both as Austinite has pointed out in his PCT article. By including nolva with your clomid, it makes the clomid work harder to bind to a receptor. Also, as he points out, look a only increases LH signal frequency not amplitude whereas clomid affects the amplitude and not the frequency.

Yep the combo i feel it optimal, I am curious about Torem over Tamox now, but I haven't used it and now on Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) I probably wont be, but it seems it may be better then Tamox. Thoughts on that Jimi or anyone else?

Cant wait to read up on what you guys post about PCT

If you can, later on down the road please cover Tren.

I been juicing for a year and read hours and hours worth of stuff but I still feel like I dont know jack shit about Tren. I was actually going to make a thread saying that Tren should have its own sticky thread covering the basics from the different types of Tren, to what exactly it does to you body and sides and all that

Yes, tren will be a good topic down the road for sure ;-)

Ok. Back from work. I wanna play... this is the kind of thread that I love.

First thanks for the kind words, red colored fella's

Agree with everyone, PCT should be a high priority for anyone who requires recovery. It's quite shocking how often we see threads where someone is asking about PCT mid-cycle. I hope this thread brings much awareness for the betterment of everyones health!

PCT protocols are usually similar across the board. What's wild is that our cycles are far from similar. So can we conclude that whatever compound at 100/50/50/50 would suffice for any cycle? I'm going with... No.

Personally, I agree with Juced_Porkchop. One SERM will not suffice. You need 2 so that you minimize your chances of failing. That being said, I think that the daily doses can be similar for anyone and every type of cycle. However, I do not think that PCT spans should all be the same. Not every cycle will require a 4 week post cycle therapy (pct).

For example, if you run a simple testosterone cycle, or test/anavar cycle, you can do the following:

Clomiphene @ 75/50/50/50 & Tamoxifen @ 40/20/20/20

However, if you run 12 weeks of Test and Nandrolone, I think you should extend your post cycle therapy (pct), with at least Tamoxifen, like so:

Clomiphene 75/50/50/50 & Tamoxifen @ 40/20/20/20/20/20

^ That's 2 additional weeks of therapy. I don't see too many compounds that would require more than 6 weeks. However, I think the extension should be taken seriously with compound that linger around longer than others, and/or leave behind more damage than others.

I've seen some folks that attempt 300 mg of clomiphene daily. This is really unnecessary and your chances of feeling "OK" during those days are slim to none. Your body just took a beating, no need to beat it up any longer.

That's really what I wanted to point out as a start in this thread.

Totally agree with all of this. specially when using Deca/undec or other long esters.

I have been thinking about a question somewhat related to the topic of PCT for some time now. A few months ago, a fellow Steroidology member posted a thread asking for advice on his recent blood test results. The poor guy had quite low test levels for his age (23), Testosterone Serum- 352 ng/dl 348- 1197, but said he felt relatively fine. The thread can be seen here:

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/654757-help-bloodwork-low-t.html

Mr. Cbman was advised his PCT had failed, and his best course of action would be to seek the help of a trained professional, but he could attempt a restart himself by dosing "hCG @ 500 IU EOD for 3 weeks, then clomid @ 50mg mon/wed/fri for 3 months". We never heard from him again, or at least I didn't.

My question is:
1) Being a few months after his failed post cycle therapy (pct), what are the chances of an individual actually rebooting themselves with this protocol? Is it possible to rebound and are the chances slim, or are low test levels just a part of life now? Even without PCT * IMO, if you where healthy and gonna recover, it would happen with or without post cycle therapy (pct), but at a MUCH slower rate. if he is not recovering i would look at other possible issues. and of course run another 1-2 PCT's before going on Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) if that was the plan. also some have higher free test than others. only guy with 500 levels might feel like he has lowT anothe rguy with 300 might feel great, it can be very individual. ofcourse there is an amount that im sure every male would feel they have low levels like say 100 god forbid.
2) I have little knowledge on hCG, but I have read of men on trt attempting to conceive who take large doses of hCG. In what way does this help? having a run of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) THEN a run of a SERM for few weeks-months while on Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) would/should higher chances of conceiving, but i would not just use HCG, some Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) then SERM yes, but if you were only able to pick one for some reason I would say a SERM.
3) Is age a major factor for success? yes, younger = easier in most cases

In red^
also want to add Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is NOT needed on Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT), its prefrance IMO.. I dont use it. sure they are small... but unless you care about big nutz vs small nutz, its not needed. I have also seen reports of anxiety with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) use, which I have enough issues with without anything.

HCG won't raise LH or FSH, in fact it does quite the opposite. It acts as an analog signal as Austin mentioned and therefor suppresses the natural signal. 250iu twice weekly should be plenty to send enough of a signal to keep the testes functioning and aid in adrenal production.

Lol! That was you who said that!

Interesting. The reason I ask is I have been experiencing problems myself. Much like Cbman, I finished post cycle therapy (pct), no use of hCG in cycle, for a simple test/tbol cycle and felt relatively fine for months until recently. I started noticing the need to drink coffee several times a day, total lack of appetite literally having to force feed around half of what I was used to, and embarrassingly ED problems that persist until late evenings. I got blood tests and sure enough my test was only 397 ng/dl. This is within range, yes, but being a young man still I know it should be higher and it sure isn't optimal. ED should be the last thing on my mind. I'm willing to be a guinea pig and see how well this works since we never heard back from Cbman.

I would get blood work and check thyroid levels. and avoid drinking coffee for energy, it is a cycle that wont help. a coupel cups is one thing, but drinking it all day is not good. imo
again if you where gonna recover it would happen with or without PCT IMO. the fact you did post cycle therapy (pct), felt fine, now months later you are having issues.. I think you need blood work. did you get your test levels checked before cycle? or any blood work?

Thoughts on how high your test level has to be before shutdown? Of course hard to quantify...

anything much over YOUR natural amount will start to shut you down IMO.

 

[DreDay187]

Can we make it a requisite that anyone debating a side have some semblance of logic and/or scholarly articles/studies in their arguments? Not just a random post off t-nation or bc "my supplier told me to run it this way", etc?

 

[Teutonic]

Back when I was geared...I never knew what pct was..I thought you were supposed to feel like hell for 2-4 months ( that explain s that 3 yr cycle from 88-91...and a string of victories and placements )...

And since I am a trt for life guy now I ll bow out except to say I do use hcg
125-250 x 2 or 3 time s a week depending on nut size..they re my barometer,,plus I like touching myself..make s me gangsta and all that crap.

 

[juced_porkchop]

My optimal PCT is a clomid/nolva combo. I really enjoy this topic because I can speak on it not only from a scientific perspective but a personal experience perspective based on the evolution of PCT as well. You see when I started in this game pct was clomid. Just clomid. In fact thats what was used on cycle t prevent gyno as well. No ai's, no tamox. Clomid was it. As things evolved nolva came into the picture and eventually the clomid /nova pct came in to play. Having experienced both clomid only and clomid nolva pct's ( iI even tried nolva only once as well) I can say this - the combo is more effective. This combined with literally thousands of case studies published by the likes of Dr Scally noting the same thing: the combo being more effective. Using both you get agonist and antagonist activity at the e receptor in selective tissue which seems to work more effectively than one or the other. Also I believe it is prudent to note that nolvadex seems to more effective at inducing the production of LH while clomid more effective (when compared to one another) at inducing the production of FSH.
I also have gotten into the habit of adding 2 additional weeks of just nolvadex at the end of my post cycle therapy (pct). This is for a couple reasons. First of all we are all different and to nail down 100% the exact proper start time for our pct is difficult as the rate at which we metabolize or dispose of testosterone varies somewhat individual to individual. Adding the 2 weeks at the end is sort of an insurance policy if you will. Also I have found from personal experience when running a 19 nor steroid like deca or tren recovery is more difficult. The addition of these 2 weeks seems to go a long way in helping this.
So my PCT looks like this :
Nolva: 40/20/20/20/20/20
Clomid:70/35/35/35

How about you Juced? Whats your normal PCT protocol?

Awesome!
Well I don't do PCT anymore (on TRT) BUT if i was going to use SERMS for say trying to have a baby it would be the combo of both. mostly clomid but with a little tamox/Nolva.
I have spoken to many and seen a lot of posted articles by scientists and "forum people" that agree with our views on having 2 SERMS to be more effective than just one.

Related, What are your views on Torem Jimi? The data I have read seems to make me think Torem might be an even better compound than Nolva to use along with Clomid. Your thoughts on that? Austin have you used Torem?

 

[WhiteDog]

Every time i see the opportunity to jump in with an educated answer i see Austin, Dre or other respected members have beat me to it, and even elaborated on what i could have contributed..

Such a pleasure having such knowledgeable people on hand... So ill just kick back and soak up the knowledge...LOL

I am going through the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) debate with my Doctor now.

I raised a concern about my fertility and being on TRT... So tomorrow i have to drop a sperm sample on his desk. If they are gtg, he said they would take me of TRT and just run HCG.

Does this sound correct?