Didnt get any gyno no, i occasionally used antrazalone
Low test around a year after steroids blood work done Please help!
- Thread starter andyctd
- Start date
Didnt get any gyno no, i occasionally used antrazalone
IMT staff
Official Sponsor
Well 2500 IU every QOD is not unheard of. The whole desensitization thing is a myth that started with studies on rat balls. The problem is they gave the rats an equivalent of 10,000 IU per dose, and that showed SOME desensitization. So yea that may be too much.
Don't get me wrong I think you guys are correct thats not a good starting point, I am just saying if someone was ASIH (Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism) they may require large doses, especially initially, to get the testes back up and running at their maximum capacity.
Hope this helps.
Don't get me wrong I think you guys are correct thats not a good starting point, I am just saying if someone was ASIH (Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism) they may require large doses, especially initially, to get the testes back up and running at their maximum capacity.
Hope this helps.
Also here is a blood test i had about 1 or 2 ago (about 3-4 weeks into using just hcg, before deciding to start poWer PCT)
My test is still low even with this high dose of hcg
, also the red blood cell count is higher than maximum what could this mean? anemia?
HAEMATOLOGY
Red Blood Cells
HAEMOGLOBIN (G/L) *178 g/L 130.00 - 170.00
HCT *0.524 L/L 0.37 - 0.50
RED CELL COUNT 5.63 x10^12/L 4.40 - 5.80
MCV 93 fl 80.00 - 99.00
MCH 31.6 pg 26.00 - 33.50
MCHC (G/L) 339 g/L 300.00 - 350.00
RDW 12.1 % 11.50 - 15.00
White Blood Cells
WHITE CELL COUNT 8.1 x10^9/L 3.00 - 10.00
NEUTROPHILS 4.22 x10^9/L 2.00 - 7.50
LYMPHOCYTES 2.96 x10^9/L 1.20 - 3.65
MONOCYTES 0.73 x10^9/L 0.20 - 1.00
EOSINOPHILS 0.10 x10^9/L 0.00 - 0.40
BASOPHILS 0.06 x10^9/L 0.00 - 0.10
Clotting Status
PLATELET COUNT 232 x10^9/L 150.00 - 400.00
MPV 9.9 fl 7.00 - 13.00
BIOCHEMISTRY
Kidney Function
CREATININE *121 umol/L 66.00 - 112.00
Liver Function
ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE 88 IU/L 40.00 - 129.00
ALANINE TRANSFERASE 35.7 IU/L 10.00 - 50.00
CK 119 IU/L 38.00 - 204.00
GAMMA GT 39 IU/L 10.00 - 71.00
Proteins
TOTAL PROTEIN 76.4 g/L 63.00 - 83.00
ALBUMIN 44 g/L 34.00 - 50.00
GLOBULIN 32.4 g/L 19.00 - 35.00
Iron Status
FERRITIN 234 ug/L 30.00 - 400.00
Cholesterol Status
TRIGLYCERIDES 1.7 mmol/L 0.00 - 2.30
CHOLESTEROL 3.96 mmol/L 0.00 - 4.99
HDL CHOLESTEROL 1.31 mmol/L 0.90 - 1.50
LDL CHOLESTEROL 1.88 mmol/L 0.00 - 3.00
NON-HDL CHOLESTEROL 2.65 mmol/L 0.00 - 3.89
Heart Disease RiskHDL % OF TOTAL 33.08 % 20.00 - 100.00
ENDOCRINOLOGY
Thyroid Function
FREE T3 5.99 pmol/L 3.10 - 6.80
FREE THYROXINE 17.2 pmol/L 12.00 - 22.00
THYROID STIMULATING HORMONE 1.65 mIU/L 0.27 - 4.20
Hormones
TESTOSTERONE 7.79 nmol/L 7.60 - 31.40
FREE-TESTOSTERONE(CALCULATED)*0.218 nmol/L 0.30 - 1.00
17-BETA OESTRADIOL 55 pmol/L 0.00 - 191.99
SEX HORMONE BINDING GLOB *14.4 nmol/L 16.00 - 55.00
PROLACTIN 121 mIU/L 86.00 - 324.00
Prostate Screen
PROSTATE SPECIFIC AG(TOTAL) 0.553 ug/L 0.00 - 1.40
My test is still low even with this high dose of hcg
, also the red blood cell count is higher than maximum what could this mean? anemia?HAEMATOLOGY
Red Blood Cells
HAEMOGLOBIN (G/L) *178 g/L 130.00 - 170.00
HCT *0.524 L/L 0.37 - 0.50
RED CELL COUNT 5.63 x10^12/L 4.40 - 5.80
MCV 93 fl 80.00 - 99.00
MCH 31.6 pg 26.00 - 33.50
MCHC (G/L) 339 g/L 300.00 - 350.00
RDW 12.1 % 11.50 - 15.00
White Blood Cells
WHITE CELL COUNT 8.1 x10^9/L 3.00 - 10.00
NEUTROPHILS 4.22 x10^9/L 2.00 - 7.50
LYMPHOCYTES 2.96 x10^9/L 1.20 - 3.65
MONOCYTES 0.73 x10^9/L 0.20 - 1.00
EOSINOPHILS 0.10 x10^9/L 0.00 - 0.40
BASOPHILS 0.06 x10^9/L 0.00 - 0.10
Clotting Status
PLATELET COUNT 232 x10^9/L 150.00 - 400.00
MPV 9.9 fl 7.00 - 13.00
BIOCHEMISTRY
Kidney Function
CREATININE *121 umol/L 66.00 - 112.00
Liver Function
ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE 88 IU/L 40.00 - 129.00
ALANINE TRANSFERASE 35.7 IU/L 10.00 - 50.00
CK 119 IU/L 38.00 - 204.00
GAMMA GT 39 IU/L 10.00 - 71.00
Proteins
TOTAL PROTEIN 76.4 g/L 63.00 - 83.00
ALBUMIN 44 g/L 34.00 - 50.00
GLOBULIN 32.4 g/L 19.00 - 35.00
Iron Status
FERRITIN 234 ug/L 30.00 - 400.00
Cholesterol Status
TRIGLYCERIDES 1.7 mmol/L 0.00 - 2.30
CHOLESTEROL 3.96 mmol/L 0.00 - 4.99
HDL CHOLESTEROL 1.31 mmol/L 0.90 - 1.50
LDL CHOLESTEROL 1.88 mmol/L 0.00 - 3.00
NON-HDL CHOLESTEROL 2.65 mmol/L 0.00 - 3.89
Heart Disease RiskHDL % OF TOTAL 33.08 % 20.00 - 100.00
ENDOCRINOLOGY
Thyroid Function
FREE T3 5.99 pmol/L 3.10 - 6.80
FREE THYROXINE 17.2 pmol/L 12.00 - 22.00
THYROID STIMULATING HORMONE 1.65 mIU/L 0.27 - 4.20
Hormones
TESTOSTERONE 7.79 nmol/L 7.60 - 31.40
FREE-TESTOSTERONE(CALCULATED)*0.218 nmol/L 0.30 - 1.00
17-BETA OESTRADIOL 55 pmol/L 0.00 - 191.99
SEX HORMONE BINDING GLOB *14.4 nmol/L 16.00 - 55.00
PROLACTIN 121 mIU/L 86.00 - 324.00
Prostate Screen
PROSTATE SPECIFIC AG(TOTAL) 0.553 ug/L 0.00 - 1.40
IMT staff
Official Sponsor
Your HCT is still high probably from when you were on testosterone.
3-4 weeks is early, we like to go at least 6 weeks before testing.
What day did you do your HCG injection related to your blood draw?
Just FYI in some cases we have seen men have to do HCG for 6-8 months before the testes fully recover. It depends on so many factors.
3-4 weeks is early, we like to go at least 6 weeks before testing.
What day did you do your HCG injection related to your blood draw?
Just FYI in some cases we have seen men have to do HCG for 6-8 months before the testes fully recover. It depends on so many factors.
casanovaaa
Senior Member
good to hear about no gyno, what dosages did you use of antrazalone when you did use it?
Mycelium
New member
Thank you for the reference. I wonder if you have to pay for the details. I want to know about the 19 subjects use of hCG during their cycle. Variable controls. Was their testicle function measured? I've been googling my ads off trying to find studies that track testosterone production and hCG. Dosage ranges and responded. Seems to me as a hCG/Ana HRT While the roids clear and then Clomid/Nolvadex PCT. Even if my limited opinion is the dose is incredibly high I think the idea is actually sound. Ive googled my ass off to find dose related testosterone increase from hCG but haven't found a good one.
Dreaded Pirate Roberts
Administrator
They give teen age kids 10,000 iu a day as a standard dose. Bro science on the desensitivity.
Its not hard to find theres a lot on it in google you dont have to pay.
Methods
An uncontrolled study of 19 HIV-negative eugonadal men, ages 23 ? 57 years, administered testosterone cypionate and nandrolone decanoate for 12 weeks, and then were treated simultaneously with a combined regimen of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) (2500 IU/QODx16d), clomiphene citrate (50 mg PO BID x 30d) and tamoxifen (20 mg PO QD x 45d), to restore the HPGA.
Results
Mean FFM by DEXA increased from 64.1 to 69.8 kg (p<.001); percent body fat decreased from 23.6 to 20.9 (p<.01); strength increased significantly from 357.4 lb to 406.4 lb (p=.02). No significant changes in serum chemistries and liver function tests were found. HDL-C decreased from a mean value of 44.3 to 38.0 (p=.02). Mean values for luteinizing hormone (LH) and total testosterone (T) were 4.5 and 460, respectively prior to androgen treatment. At the conclusion of the 12-week treatment with androgens the mean LH <0.7 (p<.001) and total testosterone was 1568 (p<.001). The mean values after treatment with the combined regimen were LH=6.2 and testosterone=458.
Discussion
The use of androgens has been reported to improve lean body mass, strength, sexual function, and mood accompanied by side effects caused by continuous uninterrupted use of these compounds (polycythemia, testicular atrophy, hypertension, liver dysfunction [oral androgens] and alopecia.) Androgen-induced HPGA suppression causes a severe hypogonadal state in most patients that often require an extensive period of considerable duration for normalization. This prevents most if not all individuals from cycling off these medications due to the adverse impact of this state on their previously gained LBM and quality of life. The protocol of hCG-clomiphene-tamoxifen was successful in restoring the HPGA within 45 days after androgen cessation. Further controlled studies are needed to determine if these results can be duplicated in HIV positive subjects.
PRACTICAL APPLICATION
The esters used in the abstract were cypionate and deconate however the administration of the PCT medications were started the day after aas cessation. Essentially the aas esters were still active when PCT began. The first 16 days a large amount of HCG was used in order to increase the mass of the testes so that they could sustain output of testosterone sooner. The HCG was stopped about the time the esters cleared so that estrogenic activity from the HCG would be reduced. During those first 16 days 2 different SERM?s were also employed (Clomid and Nolvadex) This protocol is contrary to what is typically recommended in many forums but regardless the protocol was effective in all 19 men. This is a 100% success rate! After the HCG was discontinued both SERM?s were continued. The following is the exact protocol in laymen?s terms.
Mycelium
New member
Are you refering to droppng testicles? We have to be careful when we combine studies from various trials just because they all involve the same things. When quoting a study, trial, experiment or article we have to be able to dive into participant selections, controls and variables, measured markers and timeframes, dose responses, and they are never really verified until someone else runs the exact same protocol and gets the same results.
500ui twice a week will shove estrogen up enough to need to control it according to a doctors article on peak testoserone
If we're talking science then we will need to provide a reference for any statement we make. If I say the normal TT range is "x-y" I would need my reference. If you say that's a standard dose for kids without a reference to it isn't not science. Science is a method not an answer. When meta-anaysis comes out and you read about how 1/2 the studies have to be thrown out due to poor controls and small participants populations the fact science doesn't even science shows.
If anyone is making the statement that dosage is better then the the burden of proof is on them. If thats his statment then I want to see quantified data representing his statements. It is not on the shoulders of the doubter to disprove. Bro science shows 500ui is good. One study in a clinical setting doesn't measure up with the accumulated knowledge gained by experience of some members.
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Megatron28
Moderator
He is talking about the broscience out there that too much hCG will desensitize the leydig cells.
Mycelium
New member
Ooh. Bro science is as good as it can be supported. With all the labs posted someone could scour the forum and build a case.
I was on an epileptic medication for 2 years that shut my balls down due to messing my with my leydig cells. Shrunk them and I had/still have good LH. Stopped the med and in 2 months I "returned to normal" sexually, testicle size, erections and gained like 10 pounds. Mine have bounced back every time over 10 years. Just a personal experience about leydig cells desensiting and fairly quick natural recovery. Medication induced so not a direct comparison.
I was on an epileptic medication for 2 years that shut my balls down due to messing my with my leydig cells. Shrunk them and I had/still have good LH. Stopped the med and in 2 months I "returned to normal" sexually, testicle size, erections and gained like 10 pounds. Mine have bounced back every time over 10 years. Just a personal experience about leydig cells desensiting and fairly quick natural recovery. Medication induced so not a direct comparison.
Mine dont seem to wanna bounce back :'(
casanovaaa
Senior Member
lots of great advice and info posted, what have you tried to date to bounce back?
Megatron28
Moderator
Atrophy and desensitization are entirely different.
I did about 4 weeks on hcg then started the poWer pct, which im now 14 days into, however i stopped the hcg after week 1 (after
already doing 4 weeks, probably around 25-30,000iu over the peroid) so im now on 100mg of chlomid 20mg of nolva every day, 16 more days ill drop chlomid and then the nolva. I havent had a blood test in about 2-3 weeks so i dont know if i havent i guess, but 2 weeks ago i hadnt, id move up from 6.7nmol to 7.7 which is like from 193 to 220 (american) and i still dont feel great and im still using jellies every day its a shit situation id love to be back on juice but i just dont wanna make things worse
So in recap.
So I had a testosterone test beginin of august (6.7nmol), then on August 16th I had a full hormone check (7.1nmol) (LH and FSH were normal) straight after the hormone check i began using hcg, i used probably an average of about 2500iu-3250iu a week for 4 weeks.
I then read about the poWer PCT
Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other day.
Day 1-30 : Nolva 20mg/day; Clomid 100mg/day (50mg was taken twice per day)
Day 31-45 : Nolva 20mg/day
As i had already been doing HCG for ~28 days i was a bit confused about how to approach this because i read a lot about desensitisation and stuff so was paranoid, but i decided to do about a week or 2 more on hcg (about 3 or 5 2500iu shots) whilst running chlomid and nolva along side (which i had also read a lot of contraversy on). I started the poWer PCT on the 16th of September
so Im 16 days in, I felt I reacted well to HCG the libido and ED problems where not really an issue at all (even tho i was still and still am takin viagra pretty much every day but i dont know if the problem has turned psychological now from the confidence knock of when i wasnt on hcg).
After stopping the hcg, ED starting to creep back cant even get properly hard with viagra (but hard enough). With Chlomid and Nolva I feel OK no side effects i feel a tad depressed every so often but its hard to even pin point whether thats the chlomid its nothing major at all. I also had blood tests on the 14th of September the full TRT therapy check blood test where i tested 7.7nmol (220 american) total testosterone you'd think this would be higher from all the hcg? Aparrently not.
To date I'm on 100mg chlomid 20mg nolva, I have just today had another blood test so will be cool to see if anythings changed the results will be in tommorrow.
So I had a testosterone test beginin of august (6.7nmol), then on August 16th I had a full hormone check (7.1nmol) (LH and FSH were normal) straight after the hormone check i began using hcg, i used probably an average of about 2500iu-3250iu a week for 4 weeks.
I then read about the poWer PCT
Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other day.
Day 1-30 : Nolva 20mg/day; Clomid 100mg/day (50mg was taken twice per day)
Day 31-45 : Nolva 20mg/day
As i had already been doing HCG for ~28 days i was a bit confused about how to approach this because i read a lot about desensitisation and stuff so was paranoid, but i decided to do about a week or 2 more on hcg (about 3 or 5 2500iu shots) whilst running chlomid and nolva along side (which i had also read a lot of contraversy on). I started the poWer PCT on the 16th of September
so Im 16 days in, I felt I reacted well to HCG the libido and ED problems where not really an issue at all (even tho i was still and still am takin viagra pretty much every day but i dont know if the problem has turned psychological now from the confidence knock of when i wasnt on hcg).
After stopping the hcg, ED starting to creep back cant even get properly hard with viagra (but hard enough). With Chlomid and Nolva I feel OK no side effects i feel a tad depressed every so often but its hard to even pin point whether thats the chlomid its nothing major at all. I also had blood tests on the 14th of September the full TRT therapy check blood test where i tested 7.7nmol (220 american) total testosterone you'd think this would be higher from all the hcg? Aparrently not.
To date I'm on 100mg chlomid 20mg nolva, I have just today had another blood test so will be cool to see if anythings changed the results will be in tommorrow.
scorob777
New member
I don't recall if it was this thread or another, but one of the TRT docs said some people can require multiple months of HCG to get things going again prior to starting the clomid & nolva PCT drugs. I've also see igf-lr3 recommended.
If you don't get the results you want I'd consider doing a longer course of HCG combined with igf-lr3 to get the boys working again.
If you don't get the results you want I'd consider doing a longer course of HCG combined with igf-lr3 to get the boys working again.
I did a cortisol, thyroid, vitamin b12 and D recently the vitamins where fine so was my thyroid. My cortisol was how ever very high (i think?) could I have cushings? Apparently low shgb can be because of Cushings as well... here is my cortisol test.
Cortisol
Cortisol. ---- 608nmol
Reference between 6-10am- - 133-537 nmol ---------- Midnight <150nmol
Test taken at 13.46.
And the hormone results are in and this is how they stand just over half way through the poWer PCT.. what do you lot think of these results? LH is pretty high but was expected... good to finally see my testosterone in range!!! Woooo haha what's DHEA?
ENDOCRINOLOGY
Hormones
D.H.E.A. SULPHATE 13.2 umol/L 0.44 - 13.40
FOLLICLE STIM. HORMONE 11.6 IU/L 1.50 - 12.40
LUTEINISING HORMONE *21.8 IU/L 1.70 - 8.60
TESTOSTERONE 19.5 nmol/L 7.60 - 31.40
FREE-TESTOSTERONE(CALCULATED) 0.42 nmol/L 0.30 - 1.00
SEX HORMONE BINDING GLOB 30 nmol/L 16.00 - 55.00
17-BETA OESTRADIOL 133 pmol/L 0.00 - 191.99
Compared to the first results taken..
ENDOCRINOLOGY
Hormones
D.H.E.A. SULPHATE 10.420 umol/L 0.44 - 13.40
FOLLICLE STIM. HORMONE 4.98 IU/L 1.50 - 12.40
LUTEINISING HORMONE 5.75 IU/L 1.70 - 8.60
TESTOSTERONE 7.11 nmol/L 7.60 - 31.40
FREE-TESTOSTERONE(CALCULATED) 0.219 nmol/L 0.30 - 1.00
SEX HORMONE BINDING GLOB 11.12 nmol/L 16.00 - 55.00
FREE ANDROGEN INDEX 63.94 Ratio 24.00 - 104.00
17-BETA OESTRADIOL 33.4 pmol/L 0.00 - 191.99
Cortisol
Cortisol. ---- 608nmol
Reference between 6-10am- - 133-537 nmol ---------- Midnight <150nmol
Test taken at 13.46.
And the hormone results are in and this is how they stand just over half way through the poWer PCT.. what do you lot think of these results? LH is pretty high but was expected... good to finally see my testosterone in range!!! Woooo haha what's DHEA?
ENDOCRINOLOGY
Hormones
D.H.E.A. SULPHATE 13.2 umol/L 0.44 - 13.40
FOLLICLE STIM. HORMONE 11.6 IU/L 1.50 - 12.40
LUTEINISING HORMONE *21.8 IU/L 1.70 - 8.60
TESTOSTERONE 19.5 nmol/L 7.60 - 31.40
FREE-TESTOSTERONE(CALCULATED) 0.42 nmol/L 0.30 - 1.00
SEX HORMONE BINDING GLOB 30 nmol/L 16.00 - 55.00
17-BETA OESTRADIOL 133 pmol/L 0.00 - 191.99
Compared to the first results taken..
ENDOCRINOLOGY
Hormones
D.H.E.A. SULPHATE 10.420 umol/L 0.44 - 13.40
FOLLICLE STIM. HORMONE 4.98 IU/L 1.50 - 12.40
LUTEINISING HORMONE 5.75 IU/L 1.70 - 8.60
TESTOSTERONE 7.11 nmol/L 7.60 - 31.40
FREE-TESTOSTERONE(CALCULATED) 0.219 nmol/L 0.30 - 1.00
SEX HORMONE BINDING GLOB 11.12 nmol/L 16.00 - 55.00
FREE ANDROGEN INDEX 63.94 Ratio 24.00 - 104.00
17-BETA OESTRADIOL 33.4 pmol/L 0.00 - 191.99
