More Tren Ace then Test Enth per wk?

You are the jackass,

Oh damn , I JUST realized who you are. You are the egomanic that posted a little while ago that YOU invented the idea of running test lower than tren like 2 years ago and no one would listen to you but look at how the attitude has changed now.
I laughed my ass off when I read that post because people who know what the hell they are doing (like myself )have been doing and saying that for YEARS ..and here you were taking credit...and probably fully believing you "invented" it.
It took all I had not to say this then , in that thread, but I let it slide.
Get a grip.
 
There is no way possible AR saturation can occur... the fact you imply it would speaks volumes re: you and your lack of knowledge- which you obviously try to over compensate for. I completely understood the study and its applicability , Im in agreement that running test lower than tren is prudent - for several reasons in fact.
I think running test at 100mgs/month (as he recommended) is less than optimal for ones health ..yes in fact over time dangerous. Stop trying to associate binding affinity to receptor saturation ..its retarded ..as are your last 2 posts in this thread. Not sure what you are trying to prove but if its an AAS who's knowledge cock is bigger ...I'm your huckleberry.

you sure talk an awful lot for someone that didn't answer my question. first of all, how is running testosterone at 100mg a month dangerous?

Secondly how is AR saturation not possible?

Im waiting huckleberry, cause if you prove it one way or the other, you will be the first person in history.........
 
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you sure talk an awful lot for someone that didn't answer my question. first of all, how is running testosterone at 100mg a month dangerous?

Secondly how is AR saturation not possible?

Im waiting huckleberry, cause if you prove it one way or the other, you will be the first person in history.........

Tap tap tap tap
Thats you..dancing around what you know is the truth. Because now its about being right..but you cant be.
You came at me ..you answer the questions:
Prove AR receptor saturation is a reality. I dare you. Do you have any concept the number of avail androgen receptors in the human body? Or of the human bodies response ..in fact it has been shown the number of AR will INCREASE. Stop talking shit

So you think 100mgs test/month is perfectly safe and prudent ? Answer that one .

Stop being a moron. You know your talking out your ass , defending bullshit. Just remember you have a responsibility and sadly some of these people reading this might actually believe your BS. Unless , of course , you are so ignorant you really believe the nonsense you are spouting off as well. Which is it ? Irresponsible or just stupid ?

btw read this poser : . Spiering BA, Kraemer WJ, Vingren JL, Ratamess NA, Anderson JM, Armstrong LE, Nindl BC, Volek JS, Häkkinen K, Maresh CM. Elevated endogenous testosterone concentrations potentiate muscle androgen receptor responses to resistance exercise. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol, 2009 Apr;114(3-5):195-9.
 
you haven't proven a thing yet and it is now you that is trying to turn the argument around on me. You are so far behind I can not even have an intelligent conversation with you.

I never said AR up reg doesn't happen, but that in no way whatsoever disproves saturation. almost every expert agrees saturation can occur, the argument lies within how much it takes to saturate.

this read from Mars should teach you a thing or 2, if you can understand it that is :rolleyes2

have a nice night dipshit, you are no huckleberry thats for sure :thumbsdow

The Androgen Receptor
The AR is a large protein molecule, produced from one and only one gene in DNA. There aren't lots of different kinds of receptors, as some authors claim. There are not, for example, ARs specific for oral or injectable anabolics, nor for different esters of testosterone, nor for any different kinds of AAS.
The first important question to ask is, "How many ARs do you have? Is the number small or large? Can it be changed?" Since these are, in effect, little machines which are either on or off, and their effect is greater as more are activated, we want as many of them switched on as possible.
There are far fewer ARs than most people realize. Some authors who are opposed to AAS doses beyond 200 mg/week say that only this amount will be accepted by the receptors in muscle, and everything past that will "spill over" and go into receptors in the skin and elsewhere.
Research shows that muscle tissue has, roughly, 3 nanomoles of ARs per kg. Then your body probably has less than 300 nanomoles of ARs, grand total, let's say.
Well, one 2.5 mg tab of oxandrolone supplies about 8000 nanomoles of AAS. Clearly, that's far more molecules than your body has receptors.
A little math shows that all those receptors combined could bind only a small percentage of the molecules of AAS in one little 2.5 mg tab. So binding to ARs cannot appreciably reduce the concentration of AAS in the blood. Therefore, the ideas that ARs will bind most of whatever dose some author recommends, or that "spill-over" will occur beyond that, are entirely wrong. There just aren't that many receptors.
Typical doses of AAS are high enough that a high percentage of the ARs are bound to AAS, whether the dose is say 400 mg/week or 1000 mg/week. If similar percentages of ARs are active – close to 100% in each case -- then why do higher doses give more results? It's a fact that they do, but there is not any large percentage of unoccupied receptors at the moderate dose. Thus, there is little room for improvement there. So at least part of the cause must be something other than simply occupying a higher percentage of receptors.
The fact that the ARs must form dimers to be active has an interesting consequence. The mathematics are such that if two ARs must join together to form an activated dimer, and both must bind a molecule of AAS, then the square must be taken of the percentage. This means that if say 71% of receptors are binding steroid, only 50% of the dimers will be activated. Thus, at low levels, there is more room for improvement than one would think. But if say 95% are occupied, then even after squaring that, there would still only be 10% room for improvement.
But actual improvement – increase in effect – seems to be much more than 10%. Anabolism increases even as the dose becomes more than sufficient to ensure virtually complete binding. Why?
One popular explanation is that high doses of AAS block cortisol receptors and are thus anti-catabolic. But if this were an adequate explanation, then one could use anti-cortisol drugs together with low doses of AAS and get the same results as with high doses of AAS. This isn't the case. In fact, if cortisol is suppressed, this simply results in painful joint problems. And if the cortisol-blocking theory were true, we also would expect that persons with abnormally low cortisol ought to be quite muscular. That isn’t the case either.
Three other possibilities come to mind:

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Possible Explanations for the Effect of High Dose Anabolic- Androgenic Steroids
High doses of AAS could upregulate AR production
Although activity cannot be greatly increased by increasing occupancy of existing receptors, it might potentially be greatly increased by increasing the number of receptors. This is mentioned here as a possible explanation for the effects of high dose AAS, not as an established observed fact in muscle tissue of bodybuilders.
Upregulation is observed from supraphysiological doses of nonaromatizing AAS in other tissues, and is observed in humans in response to resistance exercise.
High doses of AAS could stimulate growth independently of the AR
In muscle tissue, androgen has been observed to activate the immediate-early gene zif268 in a process not involving the AR. This activity is almost certainly related to muscle growth, and it requires high doses.
Testosterone is observed to increase the efficiency of mRNA translation of cellular proteins, and this may be mediated by a mechanism independent of the AR.
Nerve tissue has been observed to respond almost instantly to androgen. This cannot be a result of the AR mediated process described here, because that process takes much more time.
Generally speaking, the hypothesis that a drug acts by only one mode of action can be tested by examining the dose/response curve. If an effect is dependent only upon the activity of a receptor, then the log response should follow a sigmoidal function (an S shaped curve). The graph would be nearly flat both at low and high doses, and approximately linear at moderate doses.
At moderate doses the linear function is indeed seen.
The problem is, for the range of approximately 100 to 1000 mg/week, the graph remains linear regardless of dose! By the way, this does not mean that twice the dose gives twice the effect. Rather, about four times the dose is required to give twice the effect.
This response is not consistent with a simple receptor-only model; such a model is not supported by the dose/response curve. But this type of response is to be expected if there are other variables besides receptor binding. This can be explained if one or more of the mechanisms is saturated at lower levels of drug, and one or more other mechanisms do not become saturated until much higher levels of drug are used.
High doses of AAS might improve the efficiency of action of ARs
Not only the number of ARs is important, but also their efficiency of operation. The entire process, as was partially described above, involves many proteins, some of which may be limiting. Increases in the amounts of these proteins might increase activity dramatically. For example, ARA70 is a protein which can improve the activity of the AR by ten times.
Other proteins which can affect efficiency include RAF, which enhances the binding of the AR to DNA by about 25-fold; GRIP1, and cJun. None of these, unfortunately, could themselves be taken as drugs.
But as can see that there are many ways by which AR activity could change besides any "upregulation" or "downregulation" of receptors. Authors who make such claims as the be-all and end-all of their steroid theories essentially do not know what they are talking about. Without specific evidence – without actual measurement of AR levels – it is always unjustified to claim that "androgen receptor downregulation must have occurred," especially on the basis of anecdotal evidence. Actual measurements are always lacking from such claims.
Nor is it justified to assume that increasing the occupancy of ARs is the only way to increase the effect of androgens, as we have seen. It is justified, on the basis of real world results, to say that high dose AAS are more effective than low dose AAS, and certainly more effective than natural levels of AAS. This is true even if use is sustained over time. That however is not consistent with any claims of downregulation of androgen receptors in response to high doses of AAS.
It also is justified both from bodybuilding experience and from scientific evidence that low AAS doses, such as 100 or 200 mg/week, will generally not give much results for male athletes.
Next, we will consider regulation of the androgen receptor more closely. There have been many opposing claims concerning this. Which claims are valid? How should these theories affect an athlete’s planning?
One of the most common beliefs concerning anabolic/androgenic steroid (AAS) usage is that the androgen receptor (AR) downregulates as a result of such usage. This has been claimed repeatedly in many books and articles, and it is claimed constantly on bulletin boards and the like. If it were just being stated as an abstruse hypothesis, with no practical implications, with no decisions being based on it, that might be of little importance.
Unfortunately, this claim is used to support all kinds of arguments and bad advice concerning practical steroid usage. Thus, the error is no small one.
We will look at this matter fairly closely in this article. However, in brief the conclusions may be summed up as follows:
• There is no scientific evidence whatsoever that AR downregulation occurs in human muscle, or in any tissue, in response to above normal (supraphysiological) levels of AAS.
• Where AR downregulation in response to AAS has been seen in cell culture, these results do not apply because the downregulation is either not relative to normal androgen levels but to zero androgen, or estrogen may have been the causative factor, or assay methods inaccurate for this purpose were used, or often a combination of these problems make the results inapplicable to the issue of supraphysiological use of androgens by athletes.
• AR upregulation in response to supraphysiological levels of androgen in cell culture has repeatedly been observed in experiments using accurate assay methods and devoid of the above problems.
• AR downregulation in response to AAS does not agree with real world results obtained by bodybuilders, whereas upregulation does agree with real world results. (A neutral position, where levels in human muscle might be thought not to change in response to high levels of androgen, is not disproven however.)
• The "theoretical" arguments advanced by proponents of AR downregulation are invariably without merit.
The belief that androgen receptors downregulate in response to androgen is one of the most unfounded and absurd concepts in bodybuilding.
While this may seem perhaps an overly strong condemnation of that view, please consider that the claims for downregulation seen in books such as Anabolic Reference Guide (6th Issue), World Anabolic Review, Underground Steroid Handbook, etc. are presented with absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support them. The authors merely assert downregulation. They have done it so many times that by now many people assume it is gospel. In this paper you will be provided with evidence, and the evidence does not support their claim.

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Overview of Regulation
Meaning of regulation
"Regulation" of a receptor refers to control over the number of receptors per cell. "Sensitivity," in contrast, refers to the degree of activity each receptor has. It is a possible in many cases for the receptors of a cell to be sensitized or desensitized to a drug or hormone, independently of the number of receptors. Similarly, it is possible for the receptors to upregulate or downregulate, to increase or decrease in number, independently of any changes in sensitivity.
If sensitivity remains the same, then upregulation will yield higher response to the same amount of drug or hormone, and downregulation will result in less response.
So if we are discussing androgen receptor regulation, we are discussing how many ARs are present per cell, and how this may change.
Changes in regulation must, of necessity, be between two different states, for example, levels of hormone. In the case of bodybuilding, we are interested in supraphysiological levels vs. normal levels (or perhaps, a higher supraphysiological level vs. a lower supraphysiological level.) In most research that is done, the comparison is often between normal levels and zero levels, or the castrated state.
We may describe regulation with the two levels being in either order. Upregulation as levels decrease from normal to zero is the same thing, but in the reverse direction, as downregulation as levels increase from zero to normal.
The term which would be used will depend on context, but does not change meaning, so long as the direction of change in level of hormone is understood.
If upregulation occurs as levels decrease from normal to zero, as is probably the case in some tissues, this would imply nothing about what may happen as levels increase beyond normal. It does not prove that downregulation would occur. It would be a serious error to take a study comparing normal levels and zero levels and use that study to argue the effect of supraphysiological levels. Unfortunately, such mistakes are commonly made by authors in bodybuilding.
Forms of regulation
Broadly speaking, there are three things that control the number of receptors. To understand them, let’s quickly review the life-cycle of an individual AR.
There is a single gene in the DNA of each cell that codes for the AR. In the transcription process, the DNA code is copied to mRNA. The rate (frequency) of this process can be either increased (promoted) or decreased (repressed) depending on what other proteins are bound to the DNA at the time. Increase or decrease of this rate can be a form of regulation: the more AR mRNA is produced, all else being equal, the more ARs there will be. However, all else rarely is equal.
If efficiency is 100%, each mRNA will be used by a ribosome to produce an AR, which is a protein molecule. The process of making protein from the mRNA code is called translation. In practice efficiency will not be 100%. Changes in efficiency of translation can also be a form of regulation.
The third contributing factor to regulation is the rate of loss of ARs. If the cell produces x ARs per hour, and their half life is say 7.5 hours, then the number of ARs will be higher than if ARs are produced at that same rate but the half life is say only 3.3 hours. Thus, control of rate of turnover, or change in half-life, can be another means of regulation.

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The Arguments for Downregulation
Arguments from the popular literature
Users of anabolics certainly have elevated levels of androgens, but they have very few testosterone receptors in their muscles-the paradox for natural bodybuilders is that they have plenty of receptors but not enough testosterone.
Response: there are no studies in the literature demonstrating any such thing. The above statement is an assertion only, and therefore cannot be accepted as evidence that AAS use in athletes downregulates the AR.
Users of anabolics, on the other hand, have more androgens than they need, so their training should be oriented exclusively toward re- opening the testosterone receptors.
This statement deals with the issue of sensitivity, not of regulation, but again the claim is unsupported. Users of anabolics find value in the increased doses of androgen, and advanced users may well need all that they are using simply to maintain their far-above-normal mass, let alone gain further mass. The reference to "re-opening" the testosterone receptors is dubious at best, since the receptors are not closed, nor is their any indication in any scientific literature that such could possibly be the case, or that some given style of training will remedy any such (nonexistent) condition.
One group [natural trainers] needs more testosterone, the other needs more receptors. Each group needs what the other has-which is the very reason that the first cycle of anabolics has the most effect.
The statement that the first cycle has the most effect is true, in my opinion, only by coincidence. More accurately, the cycle starting at the lowest muscular bodyweight will have the most effect. This may be because the closer to the your untrained starting point, the easier it is to gain.
Let us look at the example of a person who achieved excellent development with several years of natural training and then has gained yet more size with several steroid cycles. He then quits training for a year and shrinks back almost to his original untrained state.
If he resumes training and uses steroids, will his gains be less than in his first cycle? Hardly. So what that it may be his fifth or tenth cycle, not the first? There is no counter inside muscle cells counting off how many cycles one has done. Tthe gains in such a cycle are usually greater than in the first cycle. That does not prove upregulation, but it is strong evidence against the permanent-downregulation-after-first cycle "theory."
The greater the gains one has already made, the harder further gains are. This is true under any conditions, regardless of whether AAS are involved or not.
Thus the "first cycle" argument proves nothing with regards to AR regulation.
In any case, regulation is a short term phenomenon, operating on the time scale of hours and days. But if it were permanent or long-lasting as this writer believes, then if steroid use were ceased for a long time, one ought to shrink back to a smaller state than was previously achieved naturally, despite continuing training. After all, one would have fewer receptors working, having damaged them forever (supposedly) with the first cycle. That is, of course, not the case because the "theory" is medically ridiculous.
"Various bodybuilding publications have recently featured articles stating that as a bodybuilder's level of androgens increases, so does the level of testosterone receptors in his muscles. In other words, testosterone is said to be able to upregulate its receptors in the muscles. Needless to say, the more testosterone receptors you have, the more anabolic testosterone will be. The result of the above reasoning is that it gives license to a11 sorts of excesses."
Whether it "gives license to all sorts of excesses" or not has nothing to do with whether it is true.
First of all, if the theory were true, sedentary persons using androgens -- for contraception, for example -- would become huge. The extra testosterone would increase the number of testosterone receptors. The anabolic effect of testosterone would become increasingly stronger. In reality, untrained people who use steroids have very limited muscle growth. hey rapidly become immune to testosterone's anabolic effect.
First, no one has claimed that weight training is not needed for the steroid-using bodybuilder. This is a strawman argument. Resistance training is demonstrated to upregulate the androgen receptor, for example, and also stimulates growth by other means. Therefore it is not surprising that those who do not train do not gain nearly as much muscle as those who do. The argument that AAS use alone, without training, will not produce a championship physique proves nothing with respect to how the androgen receptor is regulated. It does not even suggest anything, to any person with judgment.
And the concept that upregulation could only exist as an uncontrollable upwards spiral is entirely incorrect. Rather, for any given hormone level, there will be a given AR level. There is no feedback mechanism, not even a postulated one, where this would then lead to yet higher hormone level, leading to yet higher AR level, etc. In fact there is negative feedback, since upregulation of the AR in the hypothalamus and pituitary in response to higher androgen would lead to greater inhibition of LH/FSH production, and therefore some reduction in androgen production.
Lastly, such persons do notme immune to testosterone’s anabolic effect: they maintain the higher muscle mass so long as they are on the drug.
There is no reason to think that upregulation would become "increasingly more potent as time went on." Control of regulation is fairly quick.
The concept that AR activity is measured by "gains" is simply ridiculous. The function of the activated AR is not to produce gains per se, but to increase protein synthesis. That will only result in gains if muscle catabolism is less than the anabolism. As muscle mass becomes greater, so does catabolism. At some point under any hormonal and training stimulus, equilibrium is reached, and there are no further gains. With high dose AAS use, that point is at a far higher muscle mass than if androgen levels are at only normal values. The concept that the steroids are "not working" for the bodybuilder who is maintaining 40 lb more muscular weight than he ever could achieve naturally, and who might even still be gaining slowly (but not as fast as in his first cycle) is, at best,an example of poor reasoning.
Moderate dose steroids, even though they are sufficient to saturate the AR, don’t take one as far as high dose steroids can. The difference cannot be substantially increased percentage of occupied receptors, since almost all are occupied in either case.
What does that leave as the possibilities? More receptors, or non-receptor-mediated activity.
Is there evidence that muscles are more responsive to the same level of androgen after having been exposed to high dose androgen? That would be the case, at least temporarily, if upregulation occurred. The answer is yes, there is such evidence, anecdotally. If a brief cycle (2 weeks) of high dose AAS with short-acting acetate ester is used, there can be substantially increased androgenic activity, relative to baseline, in weeks 3 and 4 even though the exogenously-supplied androgen is long out of the system. This is what would be expected if upregulation occurred. It could not be the case if substantial downregulation occurred.
The longer a course of treatment lasts, the more users are obliged to take drugs to compensate for the loss of potency.
This is simply untrue. The illogic here is confusing cessation or slowing of gains with cessation of effect. One instead should look at,. What muscular weight set-point is the body experiencing with this hormonal and exercise stimulus?
With higher dose AAS, that setpoint is higher. Once it is nearly achieved or achiever, of course gains slow or stop. And besides this, even if the body has not yet fully achieved the higher mass that may be possible with a given level of AAS, it is harder for many reasons for the body to grow after it has recently grown a fair deal. It needs time before being ready to again grow some more. This is observed whether steroids are involved or not.
Androgen upregulation would take place only in the exercised muscle, not in the unexercised muscles. Consequently, a user of anabolics who only trained his arms would not see his calves grow. That is the case .
Again, no one claims that training is not also required for muscles. No one ever said that AAS use alone is sufficient to induce muscular growth far past the untrained state. This same logic used above could be used to argue that steroids do nothing whatsoever. After all, if they worked, then you would not need to train your calves, you could just train your arms.
The assertion that upregulation is refuted daily by the experiences of bodybuilders, or by research, is just that: an assertion.
Let us then move on to more serious arguments to be found in the scientific literature:

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Scientific Evidence Apparently Favoring Downregulation
While there are no studies showing downregulation in human skeletal muscle resulting from high-dose AAS use, there are some studies in cell culture, and sometimes in vivo, which seem to indicate that downregulation can occur, though not as a result of increase in androgen from normal to supraphysiological.
This is seen both by measurement of AR mRNA, which is in an indicator of the rate of AR production, and in measurement of receptor number.
All of these studies, however, are flawed from the perspective of the bodybuilder wishing to know if downregulation of the AR has ever been observed in any cell in response to increase of androgen from normal to supranormal levels.
Range of measurement
First, the question is, downregulation relative to what? What is the control?
Unfortunately, the control for in vivo studies is castration, not the normal state. The bodybuilder really doesn’t care if normal testosterone levels may result in fewer ARs for some cell types than would be seen with castration. We would not want to get castrated just to have more ARs than in the intact condition, if for no other reason than that the decrease in androgen level would be more significant than any possible increase in AR number.
In vitro studies have generally been done with zero androgen as the control, not normal androgen.
It cannot be projected that if AR number decreased as testosterone level was increased from zero to normal, that therefore it would continue to decrease as level was increased yet further. For example, the cause of this might be that there is a promotion mechanism increasing AR mRNA production as testosterone levels fall to zero. That would not mean that there would be any loss as testosterone levels increase past normal. Or if it is a repression mechanism that comes into play as testosterone levels rise past zero, that mechanism might be fully saturated by the time levels reach normal, and no further repression might occur as levels go past normal.
In fact, papers which report downregulation, even in their titles, often show in the actual data that the range of downregulation was entirely between zero and normal, or even zero and a subnormal level. Thus they give no evidence whatsoever of downregulation occurring with supraphysiological levels of androgen relative to normal levels.
Estrogen
Testosterone can aromatize to estrogen, which can itself lead to downregulation of the AR. Thus, if a study used testosterone but did not verify that the same results were seen with nonaromatizing androgen, or did not verify that use of an aromatase inhibitor did not change results, there is no way to know if any observed downregulation is due to androgen or not. It might be due to estrogen.
Assay
Unfortunately, AR concentrations are very low in cells, and mRNA is not so easily measured. It is possible for measurements to be misleading.
In Biochemical and Biophysical Research Communications (1991) Takeda, Nakamoto, Chang et al. determined, "Our immunostaining [for amount of ARs] and in situ hybridization data [for amount of AR mRNA] indicated that in rat and mouse prostate, androgen-withdrawal decreased both androgen receptor content and androgen receptor mRNA level, and that injection of androgen restored normal levels, a process termed ‘upregulation’….However, Northern blot data of Quarmby et al. in rat prostate have shown a different result, downregulation: the amount of androgen receptor mRNA increased by androgen withdrawal and decreased below the control level after androgen stimulation. Our preliminary Northern blot data (unpublished data) also showed the same tendency, downregulation." [emphasis added]
The authors go on to explain in detail, somewhat beyond the scope of this article, why Northern blot analysis can lead to false results. The in situ hybridization method is indisputably a superior, more accurate method.
Many of the studies claiming downregulation depend on Northern blot data as the sole "proof." This study, however, shows that such measurement might be entirely wrong. In any case, regulation properly refers to control of the number of receptors. Production of mRNA is one of the contributing factors, but ultimately what must be measured to determine the matter is the number of receptors. This has been done in some experiments.
Specific papers often cited to support downregulation of the AR
Endocrinology (1981). This paper compares the normal state of the rat to the castrated state, and the muscle cytosol AR concentrations of the female rat to the intact (sham-operated) male rat.
Objections to this study include the fact that the effect of supraphysiological levels of androgen was not studied; that cytosolic measurements of AR are unreliable since varying percentages of ARs may concentrate in the nuclear region, and these are more indicative of activity; and that castration of rats is notorious for producing false conclusions. The cells, and indeed the entire system of the animal, undergo qualitative change (e.g., cessation of growth) from the castration relative to the sham-operated animals. Testosterone levels are not the only thing which change upon castration. Another objection is that estrogen was not controlled and the effects of estrogen were not determined or accounted for. Estrogen levels certainly were not constant in this experiment.
Molecular Endocrinology (1990) . AR mRNA level, in vitro, was seen to increase as androgen levels were reduced below normal. Supraphysiological levels were not tested. Northern blot analysis was used. AR levels were not measured.
Molecular and Cellular Endocrinology. In human prostate carcinoma cells, in vitro, androgen resulted in downregulation of AR mRNA relative to zero androgen levels. Levels of androgen receptor, however, increased, relative to when androgen level was zero, by a factor of two. The researchers noted, "At 49 hours, androgen receptor protein increased 30% as assayed by immunoblots and 79% as assayed by ligand binding" [the later method is the more reliable and indicative of biological effect.]
Molecular Endocrinology (1993) . In vitro, it was determined by Northern blot analysis that mRNA levels decreased when supraphysiological levels of androgen were compared to zero androgen in cancer cells. Levels of ARs were measured, and there was no observed decrease despite the observed decrease in mRNA level (as measured by Northern blot.)
Molecular and Cellular Endocrinology (1995) . COS 1 cells were transfected with human AR DNA with the CMV promoter. The authors state that the DNA sequence responsible for downregulation of the AR is encoded within the AR DNA, not the promoter region. Dexamethasone [a glucocorticoid drug similar to cortisol] was observed to result in downregulation of AR mRNA relative to zero dexamethasone level. Androgen also had this effect, but did not result in lower levels of androgen receptors. This was attributed to increase in androgen receptor half life caused by androgen administration. The observed androgen downregulation effect relative to zero androgen ended at a concentration of 0.1 nanomolar of androgen (methyltrienolone) – higher doses, to 100 nanomolar, resulted in no further downregulation of AR mRNA production.
While this list is not complete, I am not omitting any studies that appear to have any better evidence – indeed, any evidence at all – that supraphysiological levels of androgen result in downregulation, relative to normal androgen levels, of the AR The above is a reasonably complete picture of the research evidence that might be used to support the bodybuilding theory of AR downregulation. When analyzed closely, no scientific study provides support for that theory.
Scientific evidence indicating that a biochemical mechanism for upregulation does exist
Even in the above evidence which apparently (at first sight) might seem in favor of downregulation, it was sometimes seen that actual levels of the AR increased, even going from zero to normal (rather than normal to supraphysiological.) This is upregulation of the receptor, since as we recall, regulation is the control of the number of receptors, and this control may be achieved by change in the half life of the receptors. Increased half life of the receptor, all else being equal, or perhaps with change in half-life overcoming other factors, can yield higher receptor numbers. Kemppainen et al. (J Biol Chem ) demonstrated that androgen increases the half life of the AR, which is an upregulating effect.
Endocrinology (1990) . In fibroblasts cultured from human genital skin which contained very low amounts of 5-alpha reductase, 2 nanomolar tritium-labeled testosterone [which is sufficient to saturate ARs] produced a 34% increase in androgen receptors as measured by specific AR binding, the best assay method known, and 20 nanomolar tritium-labeled testosterone produced an increase of 64% in number of ARs.
Note: 20 nanomolar free testosterone is approximately 400 times physiological level (normal level in humans is approximately 0.05 nanomolar).
J Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology (1990). In cultured adipocytes, methyltrienolone and testosterone demonstrated marked upregulation of AR content upon administration of androgen. 10 nanomolar methyltrienolone increased AR content (as measured by binding to radiolabeled androgen) by more than five times, relative to zero androgen.
J Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology (1993). In cultured smooth muscle cells from the penis of the rat, mRNA production was found to be upregulated by high dose testosterone (100 nanomolar) or DHT. When 5-alpha reducatase was inhibited by finasteride, thus blocking metabolism to DHT, AR mRNA production was downregulated in response to testosterone. Blockage of the aromatization pathway to estrogen by fadrozole eliminated this downregulation effect. Estradiol itself was found to downregulate AR mRNA production in these cells.
Endocrinol Japan (1992). One nanomolar DHT was demonstrated to increase AR protein by over 100% within 24 hours, relative to zero androgen level. The half life of the AR was demonstrated to increase from 3.3 h to 7.5 h as a result of the androgen administration.
Endocrinology (1996). 100 nanomolar testosterone was found to increase AR levels in vitro in muscle satellite cells, myotubes, and muscle-derived fibroblasts.

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Conclusions from Scientific Research
As androgen levels decrease from normal to zero, production of AR mRNA may increase in some tissues. However, the number of ARs does not necessarily increase, because the half life of the ARs decreases with lower concentrations of androgen.
As androgen levels increase from normal to supraphysiological, numbers of ARs in some tissues have been shown to increase. Such an increase is upregulation. The increase may be due primarily or entirely to increase in half-life of the AR resulting from higher androgen level.
There is no scientific evidence to support the popular view that AAS use might be expected to result in downregulation of the AR relative to receptor levels associated with normal androgen levels.

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Conclusions from Bodybuilding Observations
I find it rather unreasonable to think that the most likely thing is that athletes who have been on high dose AAS for years, and are far more massive than what they could be naturally, and who are maintaining that mass or even slowly gaining more, could possibly have less androgen receptor activity than natural athletes or low-dose steroid users.
It might, hypothetically, be possible that their AR activity is the same, and the extra size due to steroids is due entirely to non-AR mediated activities of the androgens. However there is no evidence for that and it seems unlikely.
I believe the most logical possibility is that these athletes are experiencing higher activity from their androgen receptors than natural athletes, or low dose steroid users, are experiencing. Since the majority of androgen receptors are occupied at quite moderate levels of AAS, the explanation cannot be simply that a higher percentage of receptors is occupied, with the receptor number being the same. That would not allow much improvement. In contrast, upregulation would allow substantial improvement, such as is apparently the case (unless non-AR mediated activities are largely or entirely responsible for improved anabolism, which would be an entirely unsupported hypothesis.)
Upregulation in human muscle tissue, in vivo, is not directly proven but seems to fit the evidence and to provide a plausible explanation for observed results.
I leave the matter, however, to the reader. Weigh the evidence, and decide if downregulation, as popularly advocated, is supported by science, or by what is experienced in bodybuilders
One of the most common beliefs concerning anabolic/androgenic steroid (AAS) usage is that the androgen receptor (AR) downregulates as a result of such usage. This has been claimed repeatedly in many books and articles, and it is claimed constantly on bulletin boards and the like. If I’ve heard it once, I’ve heard it a thousand times. If it were just being stated as an abstruse hypothesis, with no practical implications, with no decisions being based on it, that might be of little importance.
Unfortunately, this claim is used to support all kinds of arguments and bad advice concerning practical steroid usage. Thus, the error is no small one.
We will look at this matter fairly closely in this article. However, in brief the conclusions may be summed up as follows:
• There is no scientific evidence whatsoever that AR downregulation occurs in human muscle, or in any tissue, in response to above normal (supraphysiological) levels of AAS.
• Where AR downregulation in response to AAS has been seen in cell culture, these results do not apply because the downregulation is either not relative to normal androgen levels but to zero androgen, or estrogen may have been the causative factor, or assay methods inaccurate for this purpose were used, or often a combination of these problems make the results inapplicable to the issue of supraphysiological use of androgens by athletes.
• AR upregulation in response to supraphysiological levels of androgen in cell culture has repeatedly been observed in experiments using accurate assay methods and devoid of the above problems.
• AR downregulation in response to AAS does not agree with real world results obtained by bodybuilders, whereas upregulation does agree with real world results. (A neutral position, where levels in human muscle might be thought not to change in response to high levels of androgen, is not disproven however.)
• The "theoretical" arguments advanced by proponents of AR downregulation are invariably without merit.
The belief that androgen receptors downregulate in response to androgen is one of the most unfounded and absurd concepts in bodybuilding.
While this may seem perhaps an overly strong condemnation of that view, please consider that the claims for downregulation seen in books such as Anabolic Reference Guide (6th Issue), World Anabolic Review, Underground Steroid Handbook, etc. are presented with absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support them. The authors merely assert downregulation. They have done it so many times that by now many people assume it is gospel. In this paper you will be provided with evidence, and the evidence does not support their claim.
 
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Here a little Nandi for you. Read on and stfu. Game over moron:


Although reported half-lives and production rates of the androgen receptor (AR) vary somewhat according to the cells examined, the values reported in the abstract below are fairly typical. In the absence of androgen the AR has a half-life of about 3 hours. This means that after 3 hours 50% of the androgen receptors initially present have been degraded and replaced with new androgen receptors. In the presence of ligand, the half life of the AR is extended to over 6 hours and the production rate of new AR was almost doubled.
Androgen receptors do not fill up. They are constantly being produced, enzymatically degraded, and replaced with new receptors.

J Biol Chem. 1985 Jan 10;260(1):455-61.
Mechanism of androgen-receptor augmentation. Analysis of receptor synthesis and degradation by the density-shift technique.
Syms AJ, Norris JS, Panko WB, Smith RG.
The ductus deferens smooth muscle tumor cell line (DDT1MF-2) contains receptors for, and is stimulated by, androgens. Cells cultured in the absence of androgens maintain a basal level of androgen receptors. Following incubation with various concentrations of the synthetic androgen methyltrienolone (R1881) for 1-6 h, the concentration of these receptors increased from 6.0 to 12.2 fmol/micrograms of DNA, while the equilibrium dissociation constant (Kd) of 0.5 nM for this steroid remained unchanged. The steroid-induced increase in androgen receptor levels was specific for androgens and dependent upon protein synthesis. The mechanism of receptor augmentation was examined by utilization of isotopically dense amino acids to determine rates of receptor appearance and degradation in the presence or absence of [3H]R1881. In the absence of androgens, the half-life of the androgen receptor was 3.1 h, with a rate constant (kD) of 0.22/h. In the presence of 1 nM [3H]R1881, however, the half-life was 6.6 h, with kD = 0.11/h. The rate constant for receptor synthesis (ks) in the absence or presence of [3H]R1881 was calculated to be 1.35 and 2.23 fmol/micrograms of DNA/h, respectively. Thus, androgen-induced androgen-receptor augmentation is explained by an increase both in receptor half-life and in rates of receptor synthesis.
 
you haven't proven a thing yet and it is now you that is trying to turn the argument around on me. You are so far behind I can not even have an intelligent conversation with you.

I never said AR up reg doesn't happen, but that in no way whatsoever disproves saturation. almost every expert agrees saturation can occur, the argument lies within how much it takes to saturate.

this read from Mars should teach you a thing or 2, if you can understand it that is :rolleyes2

have a nice night dipshit, you are no huckleberry thats for sure :thumbsdow

You really are even dumber than you post saying you "invented" lower test higher tren. You know that. You're scary. You havent a clue and you try to act so scientific ..yet your the fool. You KNOW receptor saturation is BS (or your stupid) , you KNOW 100mgs test/month is inadequate and imprudent to say the least (or again ..your stupid) ..but you wanna argue anyway. Take your ball and go home junior..the big boys wanna play.

Unless of course you can prove your saturation claim as I have proven it is impossible. Im waiting..you know..for that study that dosnt exist..because you are wrong. LOL
 
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Here a little Nandi for you. Read on and stfu. Game over moron:


Although reported half-lives and production rates of the androgen receptor (AR) vary somewhat according to the cells examined, the values reported in the abstract below are fairly typical. In the absence of androgen the AR has a half-life of about 3 hours. This means that after 3 hours 50% of the androgen receptors initially present have been degraded and replaced with new androgen receptors. In the presence of ligand, the half life of the AR is extended to over 6 hours and the production rate of new AR was almost doubled.
Androgen receptors do not fill up. They are constantly being produced, enzymatically degraded, and replaced with new receptors.

J Biol Chem. 1985 Jan 10;260(1):455-61.
Mechanism of androgen-receptor augmentation. Analysis of receptor synthesis and degradation by the density-shift technique.
Syms AJ, Norris JS, Panko WB, Smith RG.
The ductus deferens smooth muscle tumor cell line (DDT1MF-2) contains receptors for, and is stimulated by, androgens. Cells cultured in the absence of androgens maintain a basal level of androgen receptors. Following incubation with various concentrations of the synthetic androgen methyltrienolone (R1881) for 1-6 h, the concentration of these receptors increased from 6.0 to 12.2 fmol/micrograms of DNA, while the equilibrium dissociation constant (Kd) of 0.5 nM for this steroid remained unchanged. The steroid-induced increase in androgen receptor levels was specific for androgens and dependent upon protein synthesis. The mechanism of receptor augmentation was examined by utilization of isotopically dense amino acids to determine rates of receptor appearance and degradation in the presence or absence of [3H]R1881. In the absence of androgens, the half-life of the androgen receptor was 3.1 h, with a rate constant (kD) of 0.22/h. In the presence of 1 nM [3H]R1881, however, the half-life was 6.6 h, with kD = 0.11/h. The rate constant for receptor synthesis (ks) in the absence or presence of [3H]R1881 was calculated to be 1.35 and 2.23 fmol/micrograms of DNA/h, respectively. Thus, androgen-induced androgen-receptor augmentation is explained by an increase both in receptor half-life and in rates of receptor synthesis.
Great find, Jimi! Man, I miss Nandi!
 
all I see is a bunch of jibberish from you, you haven't proven a thing, you are no big boy, after all you can't even explain why 100mg of test a month is bad for you hahahahahaahaha

The study doesn't exist cause im wrong ? lol

You are too much, you remind me of the big dumb ass in the gym that thinks he knows everything cause he is a "bodybuilder" and has been taking testosterone since he was 14 lolololol

I will say again, just because testosterone up regulates AR concentration does not mean saturation does not exist, and as I said earlier especially in target tissues!
 
Here a little Nandi for you. Read on and stfu. Game over moron:


Although reported half-lives and production rates of the androgen receptor (AR) vary somewhat according to the cells examined, the values reported in the abstract below are fairly typical. In the absence of androgen the AR has a half-life of about 3 hours. This means that after 3 hours 50% of the androgen receptors initially present have been degraded and replaced with new androgen receptors. In the presence of ligand, the half life of the AR is extended to over 6 hours and the production rate of new AR was almost doubled.
Androgen receptors do not fill up. They are constantly being produced, enzymatically degraded, and replaced with new receptors.

J Biol Chem. 1985 Jan 10;260(1):455-61.
Mechanism of androgen-receptor augmentation. Analysis of receptor synthesis and degradation by the density-shift technique.
Syms AJ, Norris JS, Panko WB, Smith RG.
The ductus deferens smooth muscle tumor cell line (DDT1MF-2) contains receptors for, and is stimulated by, androgens. Cells cultured in the absence of androgens maintain a basal level of androgen receptors. Following incubation with various concentrations of the synthetic androgen methyltrienolone (R1881) for 1-6 h, the concentration of these receptors increased from 6.0 to 12.2 fmol/micrograms of DNA, while the equilibrium dissociation constant (Kd) of 0.5 nM for this steroid remained unchanged. The steroid-induced increase in androgen receptor levels was specific for androgens and dependent upon protein synthesis. The mechanism of receptor augmentation was examined by utilization of isotopically dense amino acids to determine rates of receptor appearance and degradation in the presence or absence of [3H]R1881. In the absence of androgens, the half-life of the androgen receptor was 3.1 h, with a rate constant (kD) of 0.22/h. In the presence of 1 nM [3H]R1881, however, the half-life was 6.6 h, with kD = 0.11/h. The rate constant for receptor synthesis (ks) in the absence or presence of [3H]R1881 was calculated to be 1.35 and 2.23 fmol/micrograms of DNA/h, respectively. Thus, androgen-induced androgen-receptor augmentation is explained by an increase both in receptor half-life and in rates of receptor synthesis.

for the last time this does not disprove anything.
 
all I see is a bunch of jibberish from you, you haven't proven a thing, you are no big boy, after all you can't even explain why 100mg of test a month is bad for you hahahahahaahaha

The study doesn't exist cause im wrong ? lol

You are too much, you remind me of the big dumb ass in the gym that thinks he knows everything cause he is a "bodybuilder" and has been taking testosterone since he was 14 lolololol

I will say again, just because testosterone up regulates AR concentration does not mean saturation does not exist, and as I said earlier especially in target tissues!

Show me the studies..on saturation ..like I showed you one indicating its essentially impossible. Cmon man.
You talking shit..or doing shit ? Souds like talking shit is ll you have..right from jump when you came into the thread.
In fact show me study on saturation in target tissue..like you are claiming. Oh wait what ..it doesnt exist..oh yeah thats because its BS.

You came in here trying to be the big swinging dick ...and now you look like an ass.
Rightfully so for some ego-maniacal dipshit that claims to have invented shit people have known and been doing for years.
 
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Those who are not humble are destined to be humiliated. As you just found out dip shit.
Get a clue ..and have a clue before you come at someone that isnt some young newb that you can steamroll and who actually knows his shit.
 
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Show me the studies..on saturation ..like I showed you one indicating its essentially impossible. Cmon man.
You talking shit..or doing shit ? Souds like talking shit is ll you have..right from jump when you came into the thread.
In fact show me study on saturation in target tissue..like you are claiming. Oh wait what ..it doesnt exist..oh yeah thats because its BS.

You came in here trying to be the big swinging dick ...and now you look like an ass.
Rightfully so for some ego-maniacal dipshit that claims to have invented shit people have known and been doing for years.

please tell me how and the fuck your dumb ass thinks you proved that saturation cant happen, just because of an increase in AR life ? what do you think it goes up exponentially? By your retarded fucking theory then if someone gained 10 lbs on 200mg test they will gain 20 on 400 Bwahahahahahahaha

Your the only fucking moron in this thread dip shit, and your lack off common sense is radiating from the study you are clinging so hard to that doesnt explain a fucking thing in regard to our discussion!!!

As a matter of fact you will see in the post I quoted most of the studies your referring to !!!!!!!!

You view on AAS is a very simplistic one, and no there isnt a study on AR saturation, last time I checked mega dosing people with AAS was not common practice in the medical field dumbass!!!!!!!!
 
So again ..where is that study ? To back your claim ? Or what its made up speculation and bullshit so you can try to save face after trying to defend an indefensible , inaccurate contention you made. Yeah I thought so.
 
its not a mater of if AR saturation happens, its a matter of at what dose you idiot!!!!!

Ohhhh question..would that dose be in any way shape or form applicable to this thread or application that he OP referred to ? Just wondering. I mean hell if something you cant even proves exists lets find out just WHEN it would be prudent to argue that speculative point.

LOL give it up..... your the fool on this one ..rightfully so.
Try to look like hot shit ..end up looking like dip shit.
 
Ohhhh question..would that dose be in any way shape or form applicable to this thread or application that he OP referred to ? Just wondering. I mean hell if something you cant even proves exists lets find out just WHEN it would be prudent to argue that speculative point.

LOL give it up..... your the fool on this one ..rightfully so.
Try to look like hot shit ..end up looking like dip shit.

No the problem is you dont fucking understand what your trying to say, you are regurgitating what other people have posted and trying to make it seem like you understand it, when you don't.

It is common knowledge that most of your AR's are saturated with even moderate doses of AAS, your theory is pointing to the fact that bodybuilders gain in a dose dependent matter, but where your mistaken is why they still make gains when increasing AAS dose.

Now most will argue it is AAS non AR mediating effects that cause growth even after saturation, bottomline it is unclear exactly why.

This does not disprove my point all along though, that when saturation occurs, since tren will compete for for the receptor and win, kind of how a SERM competes with estrogen and wins, that the testosterone will be left in the blood stream and have a higher chance of converting to estrogen, and giving more side effects!!!!!! No one said you wouldn't gain more, but at the sacrifice of extremely high circulating estrogen!!!! but I wouldn't expect you to understand because as I said before you are just parroting information that has no value to this argument!!!!!!!!!

as I said before, you are no huckleberry, and you still havent explained why 100mg of test a month is bad for you lololol, this time try saying something in your own words!!!!!!!!
 
No the problem is you dont fucking understand what your trying to say, you are regurgitating what other people have posted and trying to make it seem like you understand it, when you don't.

It is common knowledge that most of your AR's are saturated with even moderate doses of AAS, your theory is pointing to the fact that bodybuilders gain in a dose dependent matter, but where your mistaken is why they still make gains when increasing AAS dose.

Now most will argue it is AAS non AR mediating effects that cause growth even after saturation, bottomline it is unclear exactly why.

This does not disprove my point all along though, that when saturation occurs, since tren will compete for for the receptor and win, kind of how a SERM competes with estrogen and wins, that the testosterone will be left in the blood stream and have a higher chance of converting to estrogen, and giving more side effects!!!!!! No one said you wouldn't gain more, but at the sacrifice of extremely high circulating estrogen!!!! but I wouldn't expect you to understand because as I said before you are just parroting information that has no value to this argument!!!!!!!!!

as I said before, you are no huckleberry, and you still havent explained why 100mg of test a month is bad for you lololol, this time try saying something in your own words!!!!!!!!

If you only knew just how much i understand LOL.
Question: How about you take 100mgs test/month for a few months and see how its going? In fact do it with a 19 nor just as was eluded too. Let me know how things work out. Get some blood work..lets see those #'s.

How exctly does tren compete for the receptor? If test has bound to it does tren pull it off and take its place? Does tren get there faster and bind first ? LOL your an idiot ! Seriously . You have no f ing clue and your gonna argue with me.
Stop.
 
No the problem is you dont fucking understand what your trying to say, you are regurgitating what other people have posted and trying to make it seem like you understand it, when you don't.

It is common knowledge that most of your AR's are saturated with even moderate doses of AAS, your theory is pointing to the fact that bodybuilders gain in a dose dependent matter, but where your mistaken is why they still make gains when increasing AAS dose.

Now most will argue it is AAS non AR mediating effects that cause growth even after saturation, bottomline it is unclear exactly why.

This does not disprove my point all along though, that when saturation occurs, since tren will compete for for the receptor and win, kind of how a SERM competes with estrogen and wins, that the testosterone will be left in the blood stream and have a higher chance of converting to estrogen, and giving more side effects!!!!!! No one said you wouldn't gain more, but at the sacrifice of extremely high circulating estrogen!!!! but I wouldn't expect you to understand because as I said before you are just parroting information that has no value to this argument!!!!!!!!!

as I said before, you are no huckleberry, and you still havent explained why 100mg of test a month is bad for you lololol, this time try saying something in your own words!!!!!!!!

Oh and if its common knowledge moderate doses (before it was mega doses according to you) of aas saturate AR ....where is that study ? I missed that post. LOL
I showed one showing how there is a CONSTANT production of AR. Hmmmmm
 
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BTW its been a pleasure interacting with the inventor of the low test , high tren protocol. You know the one people have been doing for oh 5-8 years before you claim to have invented it! LOL
Tool ....
 
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