My Blood work.....anyone feel free to chime in.

Atlaz

Atlaz

New member
Any opinions on possible causes? Recommendations ? Thanks....

*Megatron28
*Halfwit
*Apollon
*Mprtz

---------------------------

31 years old

Total Testosterone : 6.5 ( 6.1-27.1) nmol/L

Free T : 194 ( 110-660) pmol/L

Bio-available T : 4.5 ( 2.8-15.5) nmol/L

SHBG: 12 ( 13-84) nmol/L

Estradiol : 77 (40-160) pmol/L

DHEAS : 7.8 (2,9-12.6) uml/L

FSH: 2 ( 1.0-19.0) IU/L

LH: 2 ( 1.0-9.0) IU/L

Free T3: 5.4 (3.3-6.0) pmol/L

T4: 11.9 ( 9.0-19.1) pmol/L

Prolactin: 9 (3-13.) ug/L

Progesterone: 4.1 (0.5-6.6) nmol/L



----------------------------------------


Glucose fasting: 6 ( 3.8-6.0) mmol/L

ALT: 59 ( 10-50) u/L

ALP: 106 ( 40-110) u/L

Albumin: 48 ( 36-48) g/L


--------------------------------------------

Cholesterol: 4.7 ( 3.5-5.2) mmol/L

HDL: 1.7 (1-10) mmol/L

LDL: 2.3 ( 0.00-3.5) mmol/L

Triglycerides: 1.3 ( 0.00-1.7) mmol/L

-------------------------------------------


Ferritin: 380 ( 24-336) Ug/L

WBC: 4.1 ( 4.0-11)

RBC: 5 ( 4.5-6)

Hemoglobin: 150 (130-175) g/L

Hematocrit: 0.435 ( 0.410-0.510) L/L
 
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Sorry I don't make your list :(

Your seriously hypo. That converts to about 187ng/dl. How shit do you feel atm lol?

LH is quite low as well, so you could try a SERM therapy. At your levels though I can't see you doing too well after a SERM restart but it's certainly worth a try before considering TRT. Although if you can bring your numbers up enough there's always the option of staying on a clomid monotherapy permanently as a way of avoiding TRT. It's a fair bit cheaper and all oral rather than injections.

I'd start supplementing with NAC at 600-1200mg daily and Fish oil 6 grams daily. Just to clean up your liver & cholesterol values a bit. :)

Are you Australian btw?
 
PrinceDianabol said:
Sorry I don't make your list :(

Your seriously hypo. That converts to about 187ng/dl. How shit do you feel atm lol?

LH is quite low as well, so you could try a SERM therapy. At your levels though I can't see you doing too well after a SERM restart but it's certainly worth a try before considering TRT. Although if you can bring your numbers up enough there's always the option of staying on a clomid monotherapy permanently as a way of avoiding TRT. It's a fair bit cheaper and all oral rather than injections.

I'd start supplementing with NAC at 600-1200mg daily and Fish oil 6 grams daily. Just to clean up your liver & cholesterol values a bit. :)

Are you Australian btw?
Click to expand...

* PrinceDianabol ( just made the list) :biggthump


Yeah man I really dont feel 100% but I finally got full blood work. Great advice I really appreciated. Im already talking milk thistle and im certainly going to get some NAC/fish oil. I also think that SERM is a good start......thanks.

* not Australian.
 
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Atlaz said:
* PrinceDianabol ( just made the list) :biggthump


Yeah man I really dont feel 100% but I finally got full blood work. Great advice I really appreciated. Im already talking milk thistle and im certainly going to get some NAC/fish oil. I also think that SERM is a good start......thanks.

* not Australian.
Click to expand...

Today's a good day!! :D I feel honored lol.

Yeah I bet you don't. I'd be a complete zombie with those levels. Drop the milk thistle, it's the most useless compound known to man and completely insignificant for the liver. Just a waste of money.

Damn that's a shame... Being Aussie is awesome as fuck. Just thought you were coz you use the same measurements we do.
 
PrinceDianabol said:
Today's a good day!! :D I feel honored lol.

Yeah I bet you don't. I'd be a complete zombie with those levels. Drop the milk thistle, it's the most useless compound known to man and completely insignificant for the liver. Just a waste of money.

Damn that's a shame... Being Aussie is awesome as fuck. Just thought you were coz you use the same measurements we do.
Click to expand...

We have the same measurements because we both are Commonwealth bros. Im from Canada :beertoast
 
Usually how long does it take for Clomid to kick in? I have been talking it for a week now at 25mg ED and still nothing to report.
 
Atlaz said:
Usually how long does it take for Clomid to kick in? I have been talking it for a week now at 25mg ED and still nothing to report.
Click to expand...

I'd expect you to start feeling better in 2-3 weeks. Takes about 6 full weeks to hit your peak and stabilize as far as levels go. Some people get mood/bitchy side from clomid though which may mask the results a bit. In such a case you should switch to Toremifene.
 
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PrinceDianabol said:
I'd expect you to start feeling better in 2-3 weeks. Takes about 6 full weeks to hit your peak and stabilize as far as levels go. Some people get mood/bitchy side from clomid though which may mask the results a bit. In such a case you should switch to Toremifene.
Click to expand...

Ok cool so I will wait and see. From what I read the moodiness effects may come from a rise or estrogen with clomid. I will do some blood work 3 weeks from now and see.
 
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Hey just a little update.

4 weeks on Clomid at 25mg/daily and I do not feel anything but maybe side effect of high E2 ?

My main two symptoms are first that im really bloated especially my belly and even started seeing stretch marks. Wtf? I increased my cardio and water intake to no avail. Second symptom is on the emotional side. This one hit me harder than expected since my feelings are exacerbated to a self loathing level. Not good.

I just got blood drawn and will soon post numbers to see what is going on. I just got couple of questions first :

1. I read that the best way to come off Clomid is to taper off to avoid HPTA dysregulation?

2. Could arimidex fix the issues if E2 is high? At what dose?

Any feedback is appreciated.

* im aware that novaldex has less side effects but I dont think my doc knows that.
 
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Atlaz said:
Hey just a little update.

4 weeks on Clomid at 25mg/daily and I do not feel anything but maybe side effect of high E2 ?

My main two symptoms are first that im really bloated especially my belly and even started seeing stretch marks. Wtf? I increased my cardio and water intake to no avail. Second symptom is on the emotional side. This one hit me harder than expected since my feelings are exacerbated to a self loathing level. Not good.

I just got blood drawn and will soon post numbers to see what is going on. I just got couple of questions first :

1. I read that the best way to come off Clomid is to taper off to avoid HPTA dysregulation?

2. Could arimidex fix the issues if E2 is high? At what dose?

Any feedback is appreciated.

* im aware that novaldex has less side effects but I dont think my doc knows that.
Click to expand...

Okay. Sounds like it may be time to switch to Toremifene - dependant on what your bloodwork says.

It's going to be either of two things; either your e2 is too high OR clomid is giving you the estrogenic side effects. As I alluded to earlier, Clomid is actually a mixed agonist/antagonist estrogen receptor modulator. Which means some of the estro receptors it binds to it will "block," and others it will stimulate as though it were estrogen. The main effect of clomid is it is a full antagonist in the hypothalamus (brain) which effectively tells your brain you have zero estrogen. But other places in the body it will act as though it is estrogen. This can give some people estrogen-like side effects. Make sense?

So if your e2 comes back in a normal range, we can assume it's clomid giving you these effects. In which case I'd say switch over to Torem as it doesn't cause those effects. If e2 is high, then yes you can lower it using an aromatase inhibitor like arimadex, or aromasin. Either or. The dose will depend on how high your e2 actually is, so post up your bloodwork when you get it...

There is no need to taper off clomid. It has such a long half life your blood levels will gradually decline over about four weeks anyway. Which is why you will want to wait 6 full weeks before testing blood again after coming off clomid to see if your levels hold :)

Hope this helps! Felt like I rambled a bit lol...
 
PrinceDianabol said:
Okay. Sounds like it may be time to switch to Toremifene - dependant on what your bloodwork says.

It's going to be either of two things; either your e2 is too high OR clomid is giving you the estrogenic side effects. As I alluded to earlier, Clomid is actually a mixed agonist/antagonist estrogen receptor modulator. Which means some of the estro receptors it binds to it will "block," and others it will stimulate as though it were estrogen. The main effect of clomid is it is a full antagonist in the hypothalamus (brain) which effectively tells your brain you have zero estrogen. But other places in the body it will act as though it is estrogen. This can give some people estrogen-like side effects. Make sense?

So if your e2 comes back in a normal range, we can assume it's clomid giving you these effects. In which case I'd say switch over to Torem as it doesn't cause those effects. If e2 is high, then yes you can lower it using an aromatase inhibitor like arimadex, or aromasin. Either or. The dose will depend on how high your e2 actually is, so post up your bloodwork when you get it...

There is no need to taper off clomid. It has such a long half life your blood levels will gradually decline over about four weeks anyway. Which is why you will want to wait 6 full weeks before testing blood again after coming off clomid to see if your levels hold :)

Hope this helps! Felt like I rambled a bit lol...
Click to expand...

This is great information PrinceDianabol. Rambling is good because I get more knowledge out of it lol. Well I agree with your plan. The blood work will decide what my next move will be......I just cant wait to get out of this funk you know.

After 6 weeks off Clomid IF my levels hold will I still be bloated?

Can a person take Arimidex stand alone and feel better?

As soon as I get my blood work I will post it. Thanks dude.
 
Atlaz said:
This is great information PrinceDianabol. Rambling is good because I get more knowledge out of it lol. Well I agree with your plan. The blood work will decide what my next move will be......I just cant wait to get out of this funk you know.

After 6 weeks off Clomid IF my levels hold will I still be bloated?

Can a person take Arimidex stand alone and feel better?

As soon as I get my blood work I will post it. Thanks dude.
Click to expand...

Alrighty - I'll ramble a bit more :D

The bloat really depends. If it's estradiol causing your bloat (and I'd say it probably is,) then it's an easy fix. Either coming off Clomid/Torem entirely will lower your e2 somewhat (by way of lowering TT) and more than likely your HPTA will regulate it back to a normal level which will rid you of the bloat. This should happen even if your TT does stay at a higher level (fingers crossed.) Otherwise, you can use an Aromatase Inhibitor either on or off your SERM therapy to lower the e2. Again, this depends on bloodwork.. and if the bloat is even being caused by e2. Bloat can be from a range of things... possibly carbohydrate and electrolyte consumption.. any dietary changes lately?

You can take Arimadex alone, but keep in mind it works differently when your HPTA is "open." It will work similarly to your SERM therapy but not as effective. It will bind to your aromatase enzymes and stop them from converting testosterone into estradiol, and by doing that your hypothalamus (brain) will detect lower levels of estrogen. It yells at your pituitary (another gland in the brain) to make more sex hormones... the pituitary then pumps out LH and FSH to tell your testicle to make more test. More test then equals more conversion to estradiol.
So whilst it will lower estradiol, it will also tell your body to make more... then comes a point when your dose is high enough and you've inhibited enough enzymes that it will actually lower your estradiol, and it is possible to crash it. But lower doses will basically just raise TT - as your body tries to regulate estradiol to normal levels.

When your on SERMs though the HPTA is effectively "closed." So basically the brain makes zero changes based on estradiol because it can't sense blood levels. Not that it needs to anyway as it's generally pumping out at its maximum.. but what I'm getting at is it will take a much lower dose to lower estradiol (or crash it) as there is no compensation for it.

Same as when on cycle, your pituitary basically turns "off" and using an AI will lower estradiol without stimulating more.

Lol... hope that helps.. Let us know how your bloodwork goes :)

Prince
 
Hey mate, I got my blood result back. Here we go :

:cool:
April

after 4 weeks on Clomid ( 25mg/daily)

Total Testosterone : 16.4 ( 6.1-27.1) nmol/L

Free T : 489 ( 110-660) pmol/L

Bio-available T : 11.5 ( 2.8-15.5) nmol/L

SHBG: 15 ( 13-84) nmol/L

Estradiol : 124 (40-160) pmol/L

FSH: 3.4 ( 1.0-19.0) IU/L

LH: 4 ( 1.0-9.0) IU/L

--------------------------------------------

Pre-clomid ( February)

Total Testosterone : 6.5 ( 6.1-27.1) nmol/L

Free T : 194 ( 110-660) pmol/L

Bio-available T : 4.5 ( 2.8-15.5) nmol/L

SHBG: 12 ( 13-84) nmol/L

Estradiol : 77 (40-160) pmol/L

FSH: 2 ( 1.0-19.0) IU/L

LH: 2 ( 1.0-9.0) IU/L

----------------------------


So it seems that everything went up in levels which is good? Except for Estradiol.....

Syptoms at the moment:

- Even more bloated. I am still the same weight but just bloated with bigger belly ( i think im pregnant) Diet is clean so I think its E2.

- still feel like shit.

I got the blood early but still did not discuss them with my doctor. I will see him soon and what should I be aiming for?



Questions:

1. Should I keep Clomid and add AI or stop ?

2. Can DIM + calcium d glucarate be use instead?

Im just going to wait for your feedback before asking more questions my brain is glitching at the moment. lol
 
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Sorry for the late reply mate, been a little busy lately. Yes, everything went up as expected. However numbers don't really mean much when you still feel like shit. But at 16n/mol I wouldn't expect you to feel all that great anyhow, albeit you would feel a lot better if it weren't for the clomid. It sounds like you don't tolerate it well. Given your estradiol I'd say your reacting to the clomid - it's causing your bloatedness & shitty feelings. Unfortunate, but that can happen.

To answer your questions, no you do not need an AI. Your estradiol isn't high, it's perfectly within range. That converts to about 33pg/ml which is fine. Most guys feel best between 20-30pg/ml. Hence why I believe the clomid to be causing all your estradiol-like side effects. Adding an AI now would probably crash it and make you feel worse.


So, going forward: I'd suggest switching to Torem at a moderate-high dose for the time being. The switch should alleviate all your symptoms once the clomid leaves your system in sufficient amounts. It may take a few weeks to leave once you finish due to the long half life, but they will go. Torem (you can get from RUI) you can run at 60mg daily. At that dose I would expect your numbers to come up even more, so fingers crossed. Provided you can get your Torem in a reasonable amount of time (within two weeks) you can stop clomid now. It'll hang around long enough for you to start the Torem anyhow, and will help remove your symptoms faster.

Stick with that Torem protocol and test the same bloods after 6 weeks. Let us know how your feeling along the way too. I know this is a long process but unfortunately that's just how this game works. Make a change, wait for stabilization and then test. I'd expect you to have decent enough numbers on the Torem, and from there you can decide whether you want to stay on Torem indefinitely (if you feel great) or stay on it for a few months, come off and see if the restart holds.

Failing all that, it may be time to look at TRT. But let's discuss that if/when we get there.
 
His Estradiol is fine....
He may feel like crap cause of the estrogenic isomer of clomid. His Free Test and Bio Avail.T are in respectable levels.
..
I would not rock the boat just yet. Give it another month.
try DIM at 100 mg a day...
although your estro doesnt point to a real high level.
bring out the adex if estro goes north of 44 pg/ml....


Are u a relatively lean person?
 
Are u taking in enough vit d, GOOD QUALITY vit e, B12, zinc?
Do not over estimate these nutrients for a successful restart.
 
PrinceDianabol said:
Sorry for the late reply mate, been a little busy lately. Yes, everything went up as expected. However numbers don't really mean much when you still feel like shit. But at 16n/mol I wouldn't expect you to feel all that great anyhow, albeit you would feel a lot better if it weren't for the clomid. It sounds like you don't tolerate it well. Given your estradiol I'd say your reacting to the clomid - it's causing your bloatedness & shitty feelings. Unfortunate, but that can happen.

To answer your questions, no you do not need an AI. Your estradiol isn't high, it's perfectly within range. That converts to about 33pg/ml which is fine. Most guys feel best between 20-30pg/ml. Hence why I believe the clomid to be causing all your estradiol-like side effects. Adding an AI now would probably crash it and make you feel worse.


So, going forward: I'd suggest switching to Torem at a moderate-high dose for the time being. The switch should alleviate all your symptoms once the clomid leaves your system in sufficient amounts. It may take a few weeks to leave once you finish due to the long half life, but they will go. Torem (you can get from RUI) you can run at 60mg daily. At that dose I would expect your numbers to come up even more, so fingers crossed. Provided you can get your Torem in a reasonable amount of time (within two weeks) you can stop clomid now. It'll hang around long enough for you to start the Torem anyhow, and will help remove your symptoms faster.

Stick with that Torem protocol and test the same bloods after 6 weeks. Let us know how your feeling along the way too. I know this is a long process but unfortunately that's just how this game works. Make a change, wait for stabilization and then test. I'd expect you to have decent enough numbers on the Torem, and from there you can decide whether you want to stay on Torem indefinitely (if you feel great) or stay on it for a few months, come off and see if the restart holds.

Failing all that, it may be time to look at TRT. But let's discuss that if/when we get there.
Click to expand...


I have to wait another 3 weeks to see my doctor and get new bloodwork. I will suggest Torem or see what he has in mind and like you said its not everybody who responds to Clomid.

Thanks for all the info I appreciated. :beertoast


* Now I think that my new two months old sedentary desk job is responsible for my bloating ? In the past I always had active jobs.
 
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