New direction in my life, different cycle thoughts

T

Theworm

I am banned!
I am 38 and been doing cycles for 10 years mainly test and deca. Ususually run 400 test and 400 deca with no issues. My last was 800 deca and 400 test with no sudes and great results. However, since I'm getting older PCT is a bitch with deca.
I am not ready for HRT, that's not the point. I know someday I will but not now for many reasons.
Anyway,since deca is so harsh on HPTA and there is mounting evidence it damages blood vessels (11x more so than test), I'm going to drop it.
Was thinking of 8 week cycles of prop 150 EOD and 50 oxandrolone. Would u add anything to this? Sermorelin, clen, primo, EQ, etc? I can't afford HGH. I'm 6'5, 240 and pretty lean (no idea on BF %)...
 
Theworm said:
I am 38 and been doing cycles for 10 years mainly test and deca. Ususually run 400 test and 400 deca with no issues. My last was 800 deca and 400 test with no sudes and great results. However, since I'm getting older PCT is a bitch with deca.
I am not ready for HRT, that's not the point. I know someday I will but not now for many reasons.
Anyway,since deca is so harsh on HPTA and there is mounting evidence it damages blood vessels (11x more so than test), I'm going to drop it.
Was thinking of 8 week cycles of prop 150 EOD and 50 oxandrolone. Would u add anything to this? Sermorelin, clen, primo, EQ, etc? I can't afford HGH. I'm 6'5, 240 and pretty lean (no idea on BF %)...
Click to expand...
Do you have a source that deca damages blood vessels 11x more than test? I'm not saying you are wrong but I would like to look into this myself.
 
I didn't find the actual study itself but rather anot article that mentioned the study.
A study in Italy. Didn't mention dosing. Or how many test subjects or if the test subjects were even human.

What the article looks like to me is that AAS was administered and side effects WERE NOT controlled.
It said... Deca and test And other AAS caused all this havoc to your arterial walls and cells. If you think about it high blood pressure is what causes that havoc.
So yes. In those respects deca and test and eq. Etc can be damaging to your CV system.
But what cause the side effect of high BP?
Improper e2 control for one. And that's a big one!

There is some scientific thought that AAS can cause you to increase epinephrine and norepinephrine which can cause your vessels to tighten and therefore lead you to hi bp bUT I'm not sure if any actual proof has been found.....? Anyone?

I'm not knocking you for being concernEd. A little caution is worth it in fact. But you and the rest of us should do more research on this.

High dose deca or test or any AAS can lead to health probs. You are steering clear of high dose deca but will do high dose test instead doesn't mean you are really protecting y o Ur self.
Manage sides. Eat low sodium. Do cardio. Take the supps that work like fish oil etc. And watch out for stress! I think stress is enough to crush anyone's health more than any AAS.

MAYBE others will chime in on this?
 
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Just one other thing I wanted to point out. When someone says 11x more or 100x more or 1000x more it really doesn't mean much unless you know the other numbers to give u proper perspective.
Exampl: test boosters from gnc. They make claims like they boost your test 400x more. Sounds impressive but 400x what? If you look at a non trt middle age male chances are test is on low side. Now multiply that by 400. His test will still be low.
Another example. Prami will boost your igf/gh levels 500x. But the actual number you are multiplying 500x? The number in question is so small it's a decimal. So you really don't see much boost that it's effective to take prami for the reason of boosting igf/hgh.

So let's say taking test at high dose produced x amount of damage. And deca produce 11x that damage...... is it really a huge amount?

Hypothetical numbers: test damages CV system in studies. 3% damage over 10 years. So 11 x 3% . Again hypothetical but just trying to illustrate my point.

Overall so many factors come into play. Dosing,time ,combination of AAS, genetics,enviroment,stress,diet etc.

And after reading around more I think we are looking at animal studies here.
 
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[Rats] The Effect of Nandrolone Treatment with and Without Enforced Swimming On Histological and Biochemical Changes in The Heart and Coronary Artery

OBJECTIVE: Chronic anabolic androgenic steroid (AAS) consumption increases incidence of cardiovascular abnormalities in athletes and mechanisms underlying those abnormalities continue to be investigated. This study examines whether nandrolone consumption induced cardiac and coronary artery wall abnormalities via oxidative stress. It was also designed to determine whether enforced swimming augmented possible cardiotoxic effects of nandrolone in rat heart.

METHODS: Twenty-four male Wistar rats were divided into 3 groups: control, nandrolone, and nandrolone with enforced swimming. Nandrolone group received 10 mg/kg body weight nandrolone 3 times a week for 6 weeks. Nandrolone group with enforced swimming received the same amount of nandrolone and was forced to swim with excess weight of 20% body weight.

RESULTS: After 6 weeks of treatment, results indicated proliferation of heart muscle and coronary smooth muscle cells and lipid peroxidation; significant rise in levels of 8-hydroxy-2'-deoxyguanosine (8-OHdG), nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide phosphate oxidase, homocysteine (Hcy), apolipoprotein B, low-density lipoprotein, and cholesterol, as well as severe fibrosis in heart tissue and around coronary arteries of nandrolone and nandrolone with enforced swimming groups compared with control group.

CONCLUSION: These findings strongly support idea that nandrolone intake by sedentary rats and exercised rats induced heart abnormality mediated by oxidative stress, which was manifest in increased lipid peroxidation, Hcy, and 8-OHdG in heart tissue.

Tofighi A, Shirpoor M, Ansari MH, Shirpoor A, Zerehpoosh M. The effect of nandrolone treatment with and without enforced swimming on histological and biochemical changes in the heart and coronary artery of male rats. Anatol J Cardiol. The effect of nandrolone treatment with and without enforced swimming on histological and biochemical changes in the heart and coronary artery of m... - PubMed - NCBI
 
Another:
Nikolic TR, Zivkovic VI, Srejovic IM, et al. Acute effects of nandrolone decanoate on cardiodynamic parameters in isolated rat heart. Can J Physiol Pharmacol. An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

Despite worldwide use of anabolic steroids in last decades, there is still contradictory information about their acute influence on myocardium. The aim of this study was to examine the acute effects of nandrolone decanoate (ND) on cardiodynamics and coronary flow in isolated rat heart. The hearts of male Wistar albino rats (n = 48, 12 per group, age 8 weeks, body mass 180-200 g) were excised and perfused according to the Langendorff technique at gradually increased coronary perfusion pressures (40-120 cmH2O). After the control sets of experiments, the hearts in different groups were perfused with different doses of ND (1, 10, or 100 mumol/L separately). Using a sensor placed in the left ventricle, we registered maximum and minimum rate of pressure development in the left ventricle (dP/dtmax and dP/dtmin), systolic and diastolic left ventricular pressure (SLVP and DLVP), and heart rate (HR). Coronary flow (CF) was measured flowmetrically. The results clearly show the depression in cardiac function caused by higher doses of ND. The highest concentration of ND (100 mumol/L) induced the most deleterious impact on the myocardial function and perfusion of the heart (coronary circulation), which could be of clinical significance.
 
Those are 2 studies on rats, but not very reassuring either way.
Anyway, that plus the suppressive nature of nandrolone will cause we to steer clear.
My plan is 150 prop EOD x 6-8 weeks with oxandrolone, take 12 weeks off and repeat. That way I'll only be on for 18 weeks a year. I'm holding off HRT till my 40s... don't want to be dependent on a needle yet.
 
Thanks for digging up the studies.
But how does 600mg of test a week compare damage wise to ND?
Does the superphysiological dose of test you plan to take do any damage?
Less than similar dose of ND?
Same asize?
More than?
What I'm saying is that ND isn't the bad guy and test is the good guy. Using these compounds at higher doses can lead to health issues over time (how long you cycle for) . Also what dose is a factor.
 
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