Question for Nelson-ephedra

[rubberduckyo]

I think most bb'r people no longer use the A in the eca.

correct?

I still do but debated as disposable would be correct.

 

[TxLonghorn]

1) I GET PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT?

2) YES, ASPIRIN HAS NO EFFECT IN WHAT EPHEDRA DOES. I THINK THAT'S WHERE THE MISUNDERSTANDING LIES. EPHEDRA DOES SOMETHING. IT JUST ISN'T A VERY GOOD FAT BURNER AND IT HAS SIDE EFFECTS. I THOUGHT THAT WAS CLEAR. GUESS NOT.

3) I NEVER MEANT TO BELITTLE YOU. BUT I DISAGREE WITH YOU.

4) I HAVE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT EPHEDRINE AS WELL. MAYBE MORE THAN YOU.

5) THIS IS WHAT I TAKE OFFENSE TO. YOU'RE ASERTING THAT PEOPLE WHO LISTEN TO ME WILL BE MAKING A MISTAKE, MEANWHILE PEOPLE WHO LISTEN TO YOU WILL BE PROPERLY INFORMED. WHY IS YOUR OPINION WORTH MORE THAN MINE?

1) Yes, you do. Not because you are a sponsor, but because you are a regular poster here and at other sites. Also because I've seen some of the crap over at elite from some of the attacks upon you and I want none of that in the anabolic section here.
2) If this had been your answer from the get-go, I would never have said anything. What I read was that ephedrine doesn't do anything, or that at best you would be shooting yourself in the foot because of the 'rebound' you mentioned.
3. I have a problem with the former, none with the latter.
4. Very possible.
5. I am not asserting my opinion is better than yours or anyone else's for that matter. But you claimed ephedrine didn't do anything and even after anecdotal reports and scientific studies were trotted out, you claimed they must be biased or flawed, never even giving the possibility that ephedrine might actually work. I don't know how much more proof you can have. However, with #2 you have admitted that it works, just not as effectively or as safe as you would like in a supplement.

 

[jumpback]

This is a question for the informed...I've been told that the a in the eca stack will inhibit protein synthesis...Is this correct?


JumpBack

 

[brooklynheight]

This is a question for the informed...I've been told that the a in the eca stack will inhibit protein synthesis...Is this correct?


JumpBack

i heard this 2

 

[omnibus]

Regarding the aspirin not doing anything:there are some studies that show it does help in the stack(I could post studies but Nelson doesn't read them).I know that aspirin potentiates the stimulant effect for me.It "kicks" harder and lasts much longer.

Re:it inhibiting protein synthesis:it may inhibit it through some mechanisms yet it may increase it through others.For example it could increase creatine uptake.It can be be anti-catabolic etc.

 

[Nelson - Montana]

1) Yes, you do. Not because you are a sponsor, but because you are a regular poster here and at other sites. Also because I've seen some of the crap over at elite from some of the attacks upon you and I want none of that in the anabolic section here.
2) If this had been your answer from the get-go, I would never have said anything. What I read was that ephedrine doesn't do anything, or that at best you would be shooting yourself in the foot because of the 'rebound' you mentioned.
3. I have a problem with the former, none with the latter.
4. Very possible.
5. I am not asserting my opinion is better than yours or anyone else's for that matter. But you claimed ephedrine didn't do anything and even after anecdotal reports and scientific studies were trotted out, you claimed they must be biased or flawed, never even giving the possibility that ephedrine might actually work. I don't know how much more proof you can have. However, with #2 you have admitted that it works, just not as effectively or as safe as you would like in a supplement.

Okay, close enough. Can we be friends again now?













I'm not even going to get involved in the protein synthesis question. I'm in enough trouble.

 

[omnibus]

Research Department of Human Nutrition, Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University, Fredriksberg, Copenhagen, Denmark.

And Nelson you said the previous study I posted was done at a veterinary university:you should read closer.You think a veterinarian is doing human studies?

It says research department of HUMAN nutrition.

 

[prot]

Actually the asprin and caffeine both have health benefits..its the ephedrine thats worrisome... aspirin has multiple effects as far as the heart and as being associated with lower incidences of several cancers. Caffeine is seemingly beneficial to the liver, as a recent study of people prone to liver damage through hepatitis, HIV, etc..showed that those who drank caffeine in sodas or other drinks had the least liver problems as caffeine consumption increased.

 

[rubberduckyo]

Actually the asprin and caffeine both have health benefits..its the ephedrine thats worrisome... aspirin has multiple effects as far as the heart and as being associated with lower incidences of several cancers. Caffeine is seemingly beneficial to the liver, as a recent study of people prone to liver damage through hepatitis, HIV, etc..showed that those who drank caffeine in sodas or other drinks had the least liver problems as caffeine consumption increased.

How about we stay on topic here.......novel concept isn't it?

 

[prot]

somebody having PMS?

How about we stay on topic here.......novel concept isn't it?

Don't understand the attacks..previously you quoted me and inferred(I think) that I was saying to take thyroxin? What is the topic thats acceptable?

 

[rubberduckyo]

Re: somebody having PMS?

Don't understand the attacks..previously you quoted me and inferred(I think) that I was saying to take thyroxin? What is the topic thats acceptable?

The topic of this thread was the efficacey of the eca stack. You prompted that a "thyroid hormone" was more efficient at aiding fat loss. No attack at all.

I am curious however as to what you base this judgement on. You never mentioned the 'transport' of the "thyroid hormone" or anything else about it.

By my previous post I was merely pointing out that your post was subject to interpretation. "Hey, my Mom's on thyroxin, a thyroid hormone replacement. It'll help speed fat loss".

That's a dangerous generalization and you might have flushed out your insight further.

Why do you feel that a "thyroid hormone" would speed fat loss?

I'm playing devil's advocate as I've had much success with an eca stack. That's all.

 

[Nelson - Montana]

Okay, I'm back for more punishment.

I don't know if this edifies or confuses the issue, but it is T3 that burns body fat, or more accurately, uses bofy fat for energy and warmth. Of course, taking exogenous T3 will cause weight loos but it will also be supressive to natural T3 output putting you in the same suprewssed state as ephedra. (pretend I didn't say that) BUT, if you can maximize T4 conversion to T3, THEN you're cooking -- litereally. That's when you'll burn the most fat , without a rebound effect. An efficient thyroid also makes you feel good, as opposed to stimulents which make you feel edgy. That's why maximum thyroid output is the way to go for long term healthy fat loss.

 

[BiggieSwolls]

Originally posted by Nelson - Montana


I SEE AND RESPECT YOUR POINT BUT IN NO WAY WAS I ATTACKING DADAWG. I JUST THINK IT ODD THAT AN ANTAGONIST SHOULD BE GIVEN THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT WHEN I AM MORE OFTEN ACCUSED OF DISRUPTING A THREAD SIMPLY BECAUSE I WAS CORRECTING SOMEONES FALSE ACCUSATIONS ABOUT ME.

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[/i]

No, your labelling the member an antagonist, to me VG is just a member asking questions. It is not out of the ordinary for people to question someones online credentials. Please excuse VG for not searching our forums for your credentials. He should know your credentials because everyone on the internet knows you right?

Also, why do you take everything so personal? What do you expect DADAWG to do when he has two members bickering at each other and going off topic in a thread? As a referree in a fight, would he seperate the two and tell them to clean it up or would he just grab one guy and tell him to clean it up while the other dude is alowed to keep pounding on him? DADAWG tells you to chill out and you just have to post about how he shouldnt have said anything to you. Gimme a break, is this grade school or have the test levels just not come back yet?

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I NEVER CALLED HIM A HATER. HE COMPARED ME TO GOERBALS. THAT'S A FACT. AND VG DID NOT ASK A LEGIMATE STATEMENT. IT WAS A CONFRONTATION WITH THE PREMISE THAT I'M A LIAR. IF YOU CAN'T SEE THAT I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO SAY. AGAIN, WHY AM I BEING REPREMANDED OVER SOMEONE ELSES DIPICABLE BEHAVIOR? WTF?!?!?!

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So what? He claims your full of shit. Is that not allowed? If your not full of shit, then shut him up with whatever you got. Oh, you dont feel you have to because you have been doing it for so long, well wake up and smell the coffee, that is the business you are in my friend. Flat out, your pushing products and the way you do it just asks people to question you, especially when you are going against some common concensuses more then not from what I have seen. Did you actually think when you were writing that book and designing your supplements that people wouldnt question you? Do you think the average consumer is that stupid with his money that they will just read what you post on an internet site and buy whatever your selling without asking questions? So people should buy your supplements because you wrote a book? And the other people should buy your book because you designed some supplements? I think you have this illusion that defending your credentials to someone on the net means that it is now universal for all and that just isnt the case. The business you are in, and the fact that you open yourself up to public forums on the internet and constantly promote makes you a target. Whether the people who target you are wrong about you, is simply a matter of opinion. You cant force everyone to like you and get along with you, thats not the way life works.

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NOT TRUE. NEVER SAID THAT. BUT, WHATEVER. I ALSO DON'T MIND BEING A TARGET, AS LONG AS IT'S IN THE MANNER OF A DEBATE. BUT TIME AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN, THESE THREADS BECOME ABOUT ME. ATTACKS ON ME AND MY CREDENTIALS. AND WHEN I RESPOND, I'M IN THE WRONG. SORRY. I'M NOT BACKING UP ON THIS ONE. WRONG IS WRONG. AND THAT IS WRONG.

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Some people just cant see themselves for the way they truly are Nelson and I hate to break it to you but you are one of these people if you cannot see that you are "that guy". Sure, you didnt literally post what I had in quotations but that is the way you come off and Im willing to bet money that 6 out of 10 members feel the same way. Thats not a personal dig at you, but you've got that "Tony Little" aura around you. Now I say thats not a personal dig because Tony Little is very wealthy and hopefully you will be too but you need to be able to see the way people perceive you and then you will understand what I am talking about.


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WRONG AGAIN. I DON'T EXPECT ANYTHING FROM THE MODS OTHER THAN TO DO THEIR JOB WHICH MOST OF THEM DO VERY WELL. I DON'T NEED ANYONE TO FIGHT MY BATTLES FOR ME. BUT IT WOULD BE NICE TO HAVE MY BACK COVERED WHEN PEOPLE MAKE UNSUBSTANCIATED ALLEGATIONS ABOUT ME.

What are the unsubstanciated allegations? Forgive my ignorance as I havent read every single thread you have posted in but what are the allegations that are so unsubstanciated? Did someone claim you were gay? Did someone say they had sex with your sister? What? Because if an "unsubstanciated allegation" to you is someone saying that they feel you are full of shit with some of your claims then I think you need to realize the difference between an allegation and an opinion. You cant stop people from having opinions about you Nelson, even negative ones. Sure, there should be none of the ridiculous bullshit on the boards and we try to catch as much of it as possible here but you come on here talking the talk so be prepared to have to walk the walk especially when most of what you claim coincidentally has a positive effect on sales of supplements you designed. Also, remember that you are different then most members here because you claim to be an authority on bodybuilding, you are a bodybuilding author, so naturally people are going to disagree with you and have an opinion of you that you may not like and thats just life.

INSTEAD, THE DOUBT SEEMS TO GO IN THE OTHER DIRECTION AND THE EXPLANATION IS FOLLOWED WITH "WELL NELSON, YOU ASK FOR IT." HELL, YOU DON'T WANT NEW IDEAS WHY ARE WE HERE? LETS JUST ALL AGREE AND GO HOME.

Its not that people do not want new ideas as much as this community has been put through the shitter by supplement companies selling bullshit supplements that dont do what they claim. The community is also finding itself flooded with vulnerable teenagers who have daddies credit card and its even more inviting for the supplement companies to come out with more garbage in exchange for hard earned money. So a lot of people who have been around the coimmunity for an extended time have grown sick of the shit and it is there damn right to question 'out-of-the-ordinary' supplement claims and the people who back and promote those products. So yes, we can definitely discuss new ideas but if you are going to try and convince people to buy your "unique" supplements, you better be prepared to answer questions and the longer you are in the business, the more people will knit pick at you. Theres no getting away from that.you are not on the same page as myself and the majority.

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Since you posted this publically, I responded publically so everyone knows where I stand. It's important to me since I use my real name and need to defend my reputation knowing how judgements are made from reputation. And reputations can easily be slandered .


Honestly, if the administration has a problem with me, I'll leave. I was under the assumption that my expertise was welcomed. if I'm to be perceived as just a guy who doesn't know what he's talking about and hawks supplements, I don't need it. But pick one. I ask for no special favors. But I don't need to take shit all day long either. I have NEVER attacked ANYONE. But for some reason, I'm fair game . I say that's bullshit. And I think a lot of people would agree.

None of the administration has a problem with you. Why does it always have to be you, you, you. I hate to break it to you but there hasnt been one conversation about you in the Mod forum. I got a PM from DADAWG asking me what I thought he should do with this thread. Your expertise is welcomed by the staff, but if you cant get along with members and stop whining everytime a moderator steps in to do their job then there will be re-occuring problems that will need to be addressed. Remember, the Mods dont care about you, they have a job to do and that is, in this case, get a thread back on topic. If you cant take a Mod telling you to quit the shit and stay on topic then go find a board where the Mods will give you special privlidges and spend more time and energy making sure that your feelings dont get hurt when trying to get a thread back on topic.

 

[BiggieSwolls]

And just for the record, I am neither a hater nor a fan Nelson. I dont care enough right now about post cycle or whether you think ephedrine works. You seem to want to hear my opinion since you basically called out the administration so there it is, that post is what I see. Whether you post that I am right or wrong on a particular area of my ramble is not of any substance as that is how I see it and I am entitled to my opinion just like you are to yours.

A goodnight to all.

 

[jumpback]

Here is an article backing the aspirin theory regarding protein synthesis...Now, keep in mind this article has used ibuprofen and acetaminophen as the protocol...However, it does indicate that all otc pain relievers falling into the analgesics catogory casue inhibition...




Effects of otc analgesics on protein matabolism
Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Oct;86(10):5067-70. Related Articles, Links


Skeletal muscle PGF(2)(alpha) and PGE(2) in response to eccentric resistance exercise: influence of ibuprofen acetaminophen.

Trappe TA, Fluckey JD, White F, Lambert CP, Evans WJ.

Nutrition, Metabolism, and Exercise Laboratory, Donald W. Reynolds Center on Aging, University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences, 4301 West Markham, Little Rock, AR 72205, USA. trappetodda@uams.edu

PGs have been shown to modulate skeletal muscle protein metabolism as well as inflammation and pain. In nonskeletal muscle tissues, the over the counter analgesic drugs ibuprofen and acetaminophen function through suppression of PG synthesis. We previously reported that ibuprofen and acetaminophen inhibit the normal increase in skeletal muscle protein synthesis after high intensity eccentric resistance exercise. The current study examined skeletal muscle PG levels in the same subjects to further investigate the mechanisms of action of these drugs in exercised skeletal muscle. Twenty-four males (25 +/- 3 yr) were assigned to 3 groups that received the maximal over the counter dose of ibuprofen (1200 mg/d), acetaminophen (4000 mg/d), or a placebo after 10-14 sets of 10 eccentric repetitions at 120% of concentric 1 repetition maximum using the knee extensors. Preexercise and 24 h postexercise biopsies of the vastus lateralis revealed that the exercise-induced change in PGF(2alpha) in the placebo group (77%) was significantly different (P < 0.05) from those in the ibuprofen (-1%) and acetaminophen (-14%) groups. However, the exercise-induced change in PGE(2) in the placebo group (64%) was only significantly different (P < 0.05) from that in the acetaminophen group (-16%). The exercise-induced changes in PGF(2alpha) and PGE(2) were not different between the ibuprofen and acetaminophen groups. These results suggest that ibuprofen and acetaminophen have a comparable effect on suppressing the normal increase in PGF(2alpha) in human skeletal muscle after eccentric resistance exercise, which may profoundly influence the anabolic response of muscle to this form of exercise.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 11600586 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2002 Mar;282(3):E551-6. Related Articles, Links


Effect of ibuprofen and acetaminophen on postexercise muscle protein synthesis.

Trappe TA, White F, Lambert CP, Cesar D, Hellerstein M, Evans WJ.

Donald W. Reynolds Center on Aging, Department of Geriatrics, University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences, and the Central Arkansas Veterans HealthCare System, Little Rock, Arkansas 72205, USA. trappetodda@uams.edu

We examined the effect of two commonly consumed over-the-counter analgesics, ibuprofen and acetaminophen, on muscle protein synthesis and soreness after high-intensity eccentric resistance exercise. Twenty-four males (25 +/- 3 yr, 180 +/- 6 cm, 81 +/- 6 kg, and 17 +/- 8% body fat) were assigned to one of three groups that received either the maximal over-the-counter dose of ibuprofen (IBU; 1,200 mg/day), acetaminophen (ACET; 4,000 mg/day), or a placebo (PLA) after 10-14 sets of 10 eccentric repetitions at 120% of concentric one-repetition maximum with the knee extensors. Postexercise (24 h) skeletal muscle fractional synthesis rate (FSR) was increased 76 +/- 19% (P < 0.05) in PLA (0.058 +/- 0.012%/h) and was unchanged (P > 0.05) in IBU (35 +/- 21%; 0.021 +/- 0.014%/h) and ACET (22 +/- 23%; 0.010 +/- 0.019%/h). Neither drug had any influence on whole body protein breakdown, as measured by rate of phenylalanine appearance, on serum creatine kinase, or on rating of perceived muscle soreness compared with PLA. These results suggest that over-the-counter doses of both ibuprofen and acetaminophen suppress the protein synthesis response in skeletal muscle after eccentric resistance exercise. Thus these two analgesics may work through a common mechanism to influence protein metabolism in skeletal muscle.




What are your thoughts on this?...



Jumpback

 

[Nelson - Montana]

Seriously Biggie, I think we were reading different posts. THERE WAS NOT ONE QUESTION TOWARD ME ASKING ABOUT MY PRODUCTS FROM VG or sifi. I never take offense to anyone asking about them. I welcome it. So honestly, I don't know what you're talking about.

My problem was with unprovoked attacks on me and my credentials. And it wasn't asked in the form of a question. I believe the response was "You're full of shit" or something to that effect. I guess you didn't see that. Oh well.

This is exausting. I think we have to agree to disagree, or in the least agree that we're talking past each other. Well, I tried.

 

[rubberduckyo]

Seriously Biggie, I think we were reading different posts. THERE WAS NOT ONE QUESTION TOWARD ME ASKING ABOUT MY PRODUCTS FROM VG or sifi. I never take offense to anyone asking about them. I welcome it. So honestly, I don't know what you're talking about.

My problem was with unprovoked attacks on me and my credentials. And it wasn't asked in the form of a question. I believe the response was "You're full of shit" or something to that effect. I guess you didn't see that. Oh well.

This is exausting. I think we have to agree to disagree, or in the least agree that we're talking past each other. Well, I tried.

Seriously, Nelson, my question pertained to you providing scientific backup, ONE study, that supported your "theory" that ephedra is ineffective.

In fact, I posed the question twice. You effectively skirted the question and attacked admin when you could have simply backed your statements and put it to rest. Or could you?

As a community vet is it not your principle to help and guide newbs in their endeavors?

I don't care about your credentials, what you look like or what you've done. You could be a 98 lb kid behind a computer spewing crap for all I care. Back what you say up and quit demanding that people listen "because you say so".

 

[iron]

no offense intended but nelson has been chased away from other boards before because he doesnt provide adequate proof. ill admit though, sometimes its good to hear new, unorthodox ideas, but its hard to "buy" into it when its all just hearsay.

 

[Milhouse]

Can we not get back to the topic on hand instead of the little cases of PLOM disease(poor little ol me).

No offense Nelson, I think you are a good contributer to the boards because whether or not people agree with you you do get people to think at least which is most important. Unfortunatley or fortunatley this means that people are going to debate and call you out on your credentials etc.

Sorry if you think those are flames when people call you out but bottom line you are in the business somewhat and all businesses are like this period ie someone will always call you out on whatever you are promoting or saying.

If you cant handle that and at least without everyone having to constantly re assure you how many credentials you have then maybe you arent ready for the business or sales world for that matter.

That being said I kinda wish other people who represent some of the major companies out there (ie weider, met rx, prolab, biotest, muslcetech etc) had the cajones to actually come online and not just promote products under aliases online but back up there stuff as well in the way you do nelson.

I do see your points about ephedrine espec the parts about it being addictive and/or abused by alot of people, but for every person that is going to rave about a product 5 others will rag on it and that may or may not have anything to do with the product and more to do with other external/internal factors ie the whole story about the person .

PS if anyone always thought I was just some convo clown well I should explain that 8is one facet of my real personality.

As far as people using real names well wake up people who use real names, many are discussing thier use of products that are illegal in the countries they live in never mind the fallout from work, family etc.

Nelson even if you never wote a book at least if you got nailed for gear use you could protect yourself under the guise of Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) being over 40 and all. the majority cant

 

[DADAWG]

well now that thats settled lets get back to ephedra




my personnal experience has been mostly with xenadrine . and i have never PERSONALLY noticed any rebound weight gain upon stopping except on those occasions where my calories were raised [ bulking ]