Short Cycles (putting together my next run)

[Nosy Parker]

Hey mates, it's been a while.....So lets get down to business.

I am currently putting together my next cycle. My most recent cycle looked like the following

Test E 500mg
Tren E 200mg
D-bol 50mg (5 weeks)
arim .25mg ED (.5 left me incredibly lethargic)
Prami .25 ED (stopped after a few weeks as it had a horrible effect on my sleep, gyno also didn't act up either way)

Just finished my PCT

HCG blast 2000iu EOD 20 days
Clomid 100mg ED 30 days
Nolva 40mg ED 45 days

All in all I went up 37lbs and am maintaining a 25lb gain (adding ghrp-2 seemed to stop any loses). Calipers are notoriously inaccurate on me, however I imagine I am within 2 or 3% of where I was before. Little fat gain, however I still have all my separation, also my abs and obliques are just as defined as before.

While these results are great and I am very pleased with them, the longer run definitely took a toll on my body both physically and mentally. The biggest issue that I ran into was depression while on, the PCT only showed improvement. I also saw my doctor and added Wellbutrin and adderall. The first seemed to completely level me out and the latter (I have adhd and sexdaily...I mean dyslexia) brought my energy levels right back up. Basically I had been struggling to get out of bed and do anything besides gym, eat, and sleep....which as a full time university student is a problem.

That all being said I am now moving to shorter runs of 4-6 weeks. Probably 4-6 on, 4-6 off. I decided to try it out after reading the article that Realgains posted on short cycles. However, I have never used short esters before. This is mainly due to the fact that I really dislike pinning IM. For this reason I would like to push the pins as far apart as possible. My main question is, can you push Tren Ace to ETD like Prop? If not I would plan to do EOD.

Here is what I was thinking of for my next few runs. These will be cutting runs as I am about 20 weeks out.

4 Weeks:
Test Prop 200mg EOD
Tren Ace 75mg EOD
Var 40mg ED (switching to winny next time, then back to Var)
arim .25 ED
ghrp-2 100mcg post workout + before bed
melanotan-2 250mcg ED (not really relevant, but the background to this text is darker than I am)

PCT (Starting 2 days after last pin, 3 week duration)
100mg Clomid ED
40mg Nolva ED
hCG if necessary. My test levels have rebounded to above where they were before my most recent run, however sperm production still seems lack luster. To be blunt, far better than the clear fluid it was, but not the milk it should be.


Anyway, just wanted to hear what experiences you guys have had and what input you may care to give.

All the best,
Parker

 

[snowpatrol123]

We had a discussion a few days ago about short cycles. Basically don't bother; stick with 8 weeks minimum, preferably 10-16 (or 20+

Side note, I wouldn't push tren past EOD; personally ED is great - only symptom is I'm slowly morphing into the incredible hulk. (well not really, but you get the idea)

 

[Nosy Parker]

No offense, but you seem to be missing the point. Considering the sides I experienced, which built up most noticeably past 6 or so weeks, I will stick with 4-6. If you became horribly depressed towards the end of your longer cycles (while still on, not during PCT) somehow I doubt your answer to the problem would be to run for a longer period....

 

[KingBF]

4 weeks doesn't seem worth it to me. now if you were on trt or blast and cruising you would have a better arguing factor.

 

[Norsegod]

4 to 6 weeks isn't even enough time for short esters as it takes two to 3 weeks to get them fully built up in your system so you would only have 1 to 3 weeks of optimal blood levels. if you get horribly depressed then you should talk to someone about that or make sure your e2 it's in check and that's not the reason for it. 8 weeks is minimum, but you know yourself best so do add you please, but I just don't see a point to it

 

[Teutonic]

How old are you ?
I ask because when i was a university student (2 bachelors and a masters) I was young and full of enthusiasm in that being huge but more importantly strong (I was a power-lifter first and did bbdng shows as well) was everything...I too experienced deep depression.
Would i do it differently if i had a chance to do it over ? (At ages 21-25 I was more on than off.) You damn right I would.

And being medically retired I had MASSIVE mental issues. At age 42 my test level was 110 w 220 being the minimum on my endo s scale.

Tren was not around and it can be a mind fuck...using aderrol to get out of bed ? A d d is a convenient diagnosis ( done that route.. easily faked); not saying you did; I did..

Now that I have you lectured you I ll say...4-6 week s would not be my way of cycling but I m not you...please do not take offense. Take it from older guy who has been prescribed and abused every mental health drug you have ever heard of....

But the similarities are really ironic. Food for thought ? Don t let the mod title spook you from telling me to fuck myself; I can handle it. I m making it my mission to try to keep young guy s not to be me when they are 50....

 

[riprockwell]

Hey mates, it's been a while.....So lets get down to business.

I am currently putting together my next cycle. My most recent cycle looked like the following

Test E 500mg
Tren E 200mg
D-bol 50mg (5 weeks)
arim .25mg ED (.5 left me incredibly lethargic)
Prami .25 ED (stopped after a few weeks as it had a horrible effect on my sleep, gyno also didn't act up either way)

Just finished my PCT

HCG blast 2000iu EOD 20 days
Clomid 100mg ED 30 days
Nolva 40mg ED 45 days

All in all I went up 37lbs and am maintaining a 25lb gain (adding ghrp-2 seemed to stop any loses). Calipers are notoriously inaccurate on me, however I imagine I am within 2 or 3% of where I was before. Little fat gain, however I still have all my separation, also my abs and obliques are just as defined as before.

While these results are great and I am very pleased with them, the longer run definitely took a toll on my body both physically and mentally. The biggest issue that I ran into was depression while on, the PCT only showed improvement. I also saw my doctor and added Wellbutrin and adderall. The first seemed to completely level me out and the latter (I have adhd and sexdaily...I mean dyslexia) brought my energy levels right back up. Basically I had been struggling to get out of bed and do anything besides gym, eat, and sleep....which as a full time university student is a problem.

That all being said I am now moving to shorter runs of 4-6 weeks. Probably 4-6 on, 4-6 off. I decided to try it out after reading the article that Realgains posted on short cycles. However, I have never used short esters before. This is mainly due to the fact that I really dislike pinning IM. For this reason I would like to push the pins as far apart as possible. My main question is, can you push Tren Ace to ETD like Prop? If not I would plan to do EOD.

Here is what I was thinking of for my next few runs. These will be cutting runs as I am about 20 weeks out.

4 Weeks:
Test Prop 200mg EOD
Tren Ace 75mg EOD
Var 40mg ED (switching to winny next time, then back to Var)
arim .25 ED
ghrp-2 100mcg post workout + before bed
melanotan-2 250mcg ED (not really relevant, but the background to this text is darker than I am)

PCT (Starting 2 days after last pin, 3 week duration)
100mg Clomid ED
40mg Nolva ED
hCG if necessary. My test levels have rebounded to above where they were before my most recent run, however sperm production still seems lack luster. To be blunt, far better than the clear fluid it was, but not the milk it should be.


Anyway, just wanted to hear what experiences you guys have had and what input you may care to give.

All the best,
Parker

Honestly bro, Tren Ace for 4 weeks is a complete waste. I didn't notice a whole bunch until week 4-5 and then it started getting really good after that. Being that Tren can be a mind fuck for sure, I would just run some test P for 8 weeks and run some var along side of it. Thats my personal opinion. 4-6 weeks just doesn't do it man. Try it and see what I am saying. I personally hate short ester test so I don't run prop but a lot of guys like it.

PS - the bold in your post made me crack up. Lmao.

 

[Test Rage]

We had a discussion a few days ago about short cycles. Basically don't bother; stick with 8 weeks minimum, preferably 10-16 (or 20+

Side note, I wouldn't push tren past EOD; personally ED is great - only symptom is I'm slowly morphing into the incredible hulk. (well not really, but you get the idea)

Haha i remember this conversation.

 

[Nosy Parker]

Well seeing as I am now retaking two classes due to the depression I was experiencing you can bet that I am not going to run long cycles while in school. I am more following the guide realgains put together on the topic, also I am more concerned about fat lose at the moment than muscle gain as I am 20 weeks out.

You guys all seem to be hating on short runs pretty hard, but I dare ask if any single one of you naysayers has ever tried one? Yet alone a number of them and compared gains over a period of time. A shout out to Teutonic on the depression relation, at least someone is sharing actual experience. I definitely agree with you, I am glad that I ran and I will probably continue with longer run in the summers. However, during the year I need to crack down on work (double major and premed).

Here's an article I found on the matter that seems well put together from personal experience.
http://www.steroidology.com/forum/a...29755-short-cycles-good-gains-less-sides.html

 

[riprockwell]

Well seeing as I am now retaking two classes due to the depression I was experiencing you can bet that I am not going to run long cycles while in school. I am more following the guide realgains put together on the topic, also I am more concerned about fat lose at the moment than muscle gain as I am 20 weeks out.

You guys all seem to be hating on short runs pretty hard, but I dare ask if any single one of you naysayers has ever tried one? Yet alone a number of them and compared gains over a period of time. A shout out to Teutonic on the depression relation, at least someone is sharing actual experience. I definitely agree with you, I am glad that I ran and I will probably continue with longer run in the summers. However, during the year I need to crack down on work (double major and premed).

Here's an article I found on the matter that seems well put together from personal experience.
http://www.steroidology.com/forum/a...29755-short-cycles-good-gains-less-sides.html

I have run a short cycle for your information and have been cycling for over a decade. As a matter of fact, I just have a hard time seeing most guys benefit from a 4 week cycle. I will touch on what I think you could see a little benefit from.

1. Test/Dbol for 4 weeks - Yes you could see some gains from the dbol as it acts pretty fast in the body.
2. Test/Tren - No way you are going to get a lot out of this cycle in just 4 weeks. Knowing my body and working with a ton of guys who have cycled, I just don't see this working well and I see people getting disappointed. On my last Tren run, I initially planned Tren Ace for 8 weeks. By week 6, I was really started to see some changes hence why I extended it out to 10 weeks.

Keep in mind, this is RealGains opinion on short cycles. Personally for me, I think the longer it takes to put on quality muscle, the harder it is to lose. Well of course PCT is crucial and that is a given. I have seen guys do shorter cycles and put a little mass on. I have also seen guys do longer cycles of 14-16 weeks and actually put on more mass and seem to keep more of it. Slow and steady is what I have practiced over the years and I have been able to keep good mass without the constant need for cycling. I mean, what can one expect to truly gain in just 4 weeks?? That is a very short time and the results will not be amazing unless of course you add in a kick start like Dbol and even then, I would give Dbol all the credit and very little to Test Prop. The other issue I have is doing a cycle 4-6 weeks and then taking off 4-6 weeks and saying you are recovered. Notice there was nobody doing blood work before and after to see how they recovered. It is also subjective to say that their side effects were minimal. Of course they were minimal. The test in their system was just starting to build up. Just very flawed in my opinion. No knock to anyone trying this, just from my personal experience, I don't agree with it.

If you look at page 6 in that thread posted by Glubgawd, I pretty much agree with the following he said.....

"I've always preferred long cycles. Why? Running a cycle for a longer period of time gives your body more time to adjust to the new weight. That's important for keeping gains post cycle.

Not to say you CAN'T make gains on shorter cycles, but you should definitely read up on homeostasis."

 

[Nosy Parker]

I have run a short cycle for your information and have been cycling for over a decade. As a matter of fact, I just have a hard time seeing most guys benefit from a 4 week cycle. I will touch on what I think you could see a little benefit from.

1. Test/Dbol for 4 weeks - Yes you could see some gains from the dbol as it acts pretty fast in the body.
2. Test/Tren - No way you are going to get a lot out of this cycle in just 4 weeks. Knowing my body and working with a ton of guys who have cycled, I just don't see this working well and I see people getting disappointed. On my last Tren run, I initially planned Tren Ace for 8 weeks. By week 6, I was really started to see some changes hence why I extended it out to 10 weeks.

Keep in mind, this is RealGains opinion on short cycles. Personally for me, I think the longer it takes to put on quality muscle, the harder it is to lose. Well of course PCT is crucial and that is a given. I have seen guys do shorter cycles and put a little mass on. I have also seen guys do longer cycles of 14-16 weeks and actually put on more mass and seem to keep more of it. Slow and steady is what I have practiced over the years and I have been able to keep good mass without the constant need for cycling. I mean, what can one expect to truly gain in just 4 weeks?? That is a very short time and the results will not be amazing unless of course you add in a kick start like Dbol and even then, I would give Dbol all the credit and very little to Test Prop. The other issue I have is doing a cycle 4-6 weeks and then taking off 4-6 weeks and saying you are recovered. Notice there was nobody doing blood work before and after to see how they recovered. It is also subjective to say that their side effects were minimal. Of course they were minimal. The test in their system was just starting to build up. Just very flawed in my opinion. No knock to anyone trying this, just from my personal experience, I don't agree with it.

I do see your point with the orals vs the prop. As for keeping mass there is no quantitative quality of muscle, how much is lost is determined by genetics(which includes HPTA recovery). As for recovery, it will likely be improved when compared to longer cycles if done in the same manner that most are done. IE 6 on 6 off less time shut down total than when you are doing 16 on and 16 off. Now if you were being cautious, and arguably smart about it, and did 16 on and near 32 off that would be a different story.

I think I'll just pick up more than I need. That way I can try 4, if I see results I can come off. If I don't I can extend it until sides act up too much.

 

[riprockwell]

I do see your point with the orals vs the prop. As for keeping mass there is no quantitative quality of muscle, how much is lost is determined by genetics(which includes HPTA recovery). As for recovery, it will likely be improved when compared to longer cycles if done in the same manner that most are done. IE 6 on 6 off less time shut down total than when you are doing 16 on and 16 off. Now if you were being cautious, and arguably smart about it, and did 16 on and near 32 off that would be a different story.

I think I'll just pick up more than I need. That way I can try 4, if I see results I can come off. If I don't I can extend it until sides act up too much.

The point I am saying is that you will experience some degree of shut down with a short cycle and I promise you that you will not see great gains in 4 weeks with test/tren. If you did, I would absolutely shocked but I can promise you that you won't. Being that homeostasis is not a short process, how can a guy cycle 4 weeks, then take off 4-6 weeks and consider that he is recovered. Again, even after long cycles, I don't test my hormones until around 2-3 months after PCT to see how I have recovered. It just seems this shorter cycle is ignoring recovery going based solely on duration times and how they feel rather than blood work. Even if the recovery is real, again how great were your gains in 4 weeks?? I am just a "go hard or go home" type of guy. You are cycling AAS so you might as well put on some muscle over a period of time. This has to go with extensive research on homeostasis. Gains also need to have diet as a main emphasis and some bridging of peptides helps as well. Give it a try and see how it works out for you.

 

[JimiThing]

You can make amazing well retained gains on short 6 week blast cycles using short esters at higher doses. Perhaps you would see an improvement in sperm count (although your methodolgy for determining yours are low is less than accurate) if you extended your pct longer than 3 weeks or perhaps run clomid an additional 2 since it has an impact on FSH which directy impacst sperm production. Im not a fan of the HCG blast - low dose during cycle seems to be the best rotcol for me when it comes to hcg - 250iu's-2x/week. Also nutrition is paramount when running short burst cycles, a nutritional "prime" pre cycle, say a carb cycle type diet will prime the body for growth and maximize your gains.

 

[snowpatrol123]

No offense, but you seem to be missing the point. Considering the sides I experienced, which built up most noticeably past 6 or so weeks, I will stick with 4-6. If you became horribly depressed towards the end of your longer cycles (while still on, not during PCT) somehow I doubt your answer to the problem would be to run for a longer period....

I don't think I missed the point at all. I -still- think you'd be better served running a longer cycle, all things considered.

I'm sorry about your depression issues, I've had my own in the past after the army & ended up self medicating with booze and coke rather than prescription meds. So to an extent, I feel your pain. If doing a double major undergrad degree is that stressful/difficult for you, you might want to consider waiting until you graduate to cycle again.

I'm not you, obviously, but some of the best times of my life so far were the third and fourth years of my undergrad degree, doing six rather than five courses per semester and working 30-50 hours per week on top of it. I graduated with a 3.84 GPA; so busy with school and work I didn't have time to ruminate / self destruct the way I did after I left the infantry. This might be a great time to take a break from training and focus on enjoying some of the last carefree years of your life, until you're a senior citizen.

 

[Mad- scientist]

Short cycles are only going to work with oral steroids and steroids suspended in water like winstrol, tren suspension, or test suspension. Also though side effects could become bad with tren or test suspension. I personally think you would be better off running a 3 month cycle. Also tren can cause depression and anxiety and a lot of other side effects. No body really knows how it effects your brain and why it makes people so angry. But I hear all the time stories about jacked 270 pound guys crying like little girls over stuff because tren is fucking with their head.

What sucks about steroids is if you have a negative side effect with them a lot of times you have the choice to either stop the cycle or try to fix the problem your self. And usually fixing the problem your self is a hard one to do the first time experiencing the problem. So a lot of times as a steroid user we have to put are selfs in the same situation and cycle to figure out what he problem truly was to begin with. Because the only way you can do that is blood work and the check and go process of looking into different remedies to treat a problem or fix it.

I think 3 month cycles are the best way to go and I also think you might not experience depression if you do another cycle but with out tren. Like others said though it could easily be your estrogen making you depressed. If you are lethargic and depressed while on cycle you should try to figure out what steroid caused it or if it was a combination of steroids that caused it. Do testosterone only cycles still make you depressed and lethargic?

 

[Nosy Parker]

You can make amazing well retained gains on short 6 week blast cycles using short esters at higher doses. Perhaps you would see an improvement in sperm count (although your methodolgy for determining yours are low is less than accurate) if you extended your pct longer than 3 weeks or perhaps run clomid an additional 2 since it has an impact on FSH which directy impacst sperm production. Im not a fan of the HCG blast - low dose during cycle seems to be the best rotcol for me when it comes to hcg - 250iu's-2x/week. Also nutrition is paramount when running short burst cycles, a nutritional "prime" pre cycle, say a carb cycle type diet will prime the body for growth and maximize your gains.

It is true that I don't truly know where they stand now, but the purified water I was shooting while on was definitely low in count lmao. I considered extending the clomid, however clomid kills my libido and my test levels had amply rebounded. As a Kin/Nutrition double major I couldn't agree more on the nutrition aspect, however I believe nutrition is absolute base of any training. Regardless of the cycle length, if your diet doesn't support your goals you'll be hard pressed to get anywhere near achieving them.

As for tren being the cause of depression it actually wouldn't surprise me. I have not done a test only cycle to compare it to, however I started out with short dbol only runs and had some of the best times of my life. I think this time around I may just drop the tren and replace it with Masteron Prop. I know most people do Mast EOD, but seeing that it is prop and I do not enjoy pinning in the slightest I think I'll just up the dose and do Mast Prop and T Prop every third day. 3 week dbol kick at around 30mg, then stay off orals until about 4 weeks out and run Var right through the show. So new Idea

EOD 16 weeks:
Test Prop 200mg EOD
Mast Prop 200mg EOD
Dbol 30mg ED weeks 1-4
Var 40mg ED weeks 10-16
arim .25 ED
GH at 6ius 3 separate shots
melanotan-2 250mcg ED

 

[snowpatrol123]

If you want to run mast but not pin as often, consider test e with mast e -> e3d injections shouldn't be a problem at all, you can even push to twice a week or e4d.

You could kickstart with test prop alongside the enanthate rather than, or on top of the dbol.

The GH is a great idea if you can afford quality stuff; should help your sleep and could directly benefit your mood / mental state.

 

[Nosy Parker]

If you want to run mast but not pin as often, consider test e with mast e -> e3d injections shouldn't be a problem at all, you can even push to twice a week or e4d.

You could kickstart with test prop alongside the enanthate rather than, or on top of the dbol.

The GH is a great idea if you can afford quality stuff; should help your sleep and could directly benefit your mood / mental state.

As it turns out all I have access to is mast e so I'll just run that with test e. However, I recently found out that I must leave the country for 7 nights towards the end of my run. For this reason I would like to keep everything to weekly pins. That way I can pin before my flight, and then again the day of return. Would it be possible to do e4d, pin an increased amount of mast day of flight and then push the next pin off until the day of return while again pining a larger amount of mast? Test levels shouldn't fluctuate much as test e has an active life of 10-11 days. The mast would likely fluctuate a bit, however it would have had ample time to build up as the trip would be 10 weeks after the start.

For the kick I'll just use up the dbol that I have left (about 4 weeks worth at 30mg)

As for the GH I will be able to bring that with me w/o concern as it is prescription.

 

[snowpatrol123]

For 7 days you'll be 100% fine. Pin about 150% usual ahead of time, the same when you return. E4D vs E3D won't make a huge difference, adjust the dosing accordingly but I would go with E3D for stabler blood levels during most of your cycle.

 

[gram of tren]

why are u gonna pin MTII everyday?

why are you gonna run a cycle for 4 weeks?

why are you asking us for advice if you're just gonna disregard it and take "realgainz" advice? whoever that is