Testosterone known as the base to most cycle stacks

[ceo]

Dropping Test a few weeks before comps is normal...

Running a cycle without it is silly, maybe you could get away with something like a DHT+something aromatisable like EQ or Dbol but it isn't smart. At the very least you should be using hCG so that atleast your natural system is producing test or run something like 100-200mg Test per week as the base.

I run on 200mg Test as my cruise and keep it at 200mg year round, using other AAS to blast.

For the average gym-goer not running test in a cycle is not advised and not necessary (a triple negative).
But I've seen guys run primo only cycles, primo and var cycles, hell I know a guy who ran deca only cycles, competed at 245 SHW in his last comp, 285 off season. Lots of guys have ran oral only cycles, like dbol or var. Especially with all the Designer Steroids and ProHormones out there.
It's not like you are going to die without Test, especially if you have other androgens on board. There was a study done on rats using low dose trenbolone (no test) as androgen replacement. They found that low dosed tren did not increase prostate mass, nor hemoglobin concentrations while of course building muscle, preserving bone density and keeping visceral fat accumulation at bay. 17?-Hydroxyestra-4,9,11-trien-3-one (trenbolone) exhibits tissue se... - PubMed - NCBI

I run 200mg test every week as well for my TRT. I am always on at least 200mg/week now.

 

[ceo]

You need test all the time because your natural production is shutdown & you need to make up for it - the fact that you've been on this board for 11yrs and didnt know this astounds me.

Yea...what applies to pros does NOT apply to everyone else - they stay on year round and have no intention of recovering their natural production. Basically, health considerations are irrelevant to them.

LOL the fact that you put test & death in the same sentence shows how little you know - please avoid giving careless advice in the future without something solid to back you up.
And no, "the pros do it" is not a solid explanation

You are jumping to conclusions my friend. It's not only pros that drop test before a comp. Or run cycles without test sometimes. Show me where I said "the pros do it?" You even used quotation marks, so I must have said exactly that. Please quote the post.

Amazing how you can carelessly add words to my posts and misquote me, then tell me I know little and am careless.

You guys are acting like I am telling people NOT to ever use test. What the hell is wrong with you? I can see that reading comprehension is not a strong suit for some of you, but you are all acting like this is a witch hunt now. LOL!

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

guys will drop test before comps a lot.running tren or primo orals too. It depends o your goals.

When asked by tbone & 3J to justify your statement this is what you said.
I'm sorry that you took my use of " " a little too literally, but that post is the equivalent to - lots of pros do it so it must be fine.
You can say that it wasn't what you meant, but that is how it will be interpreted by anyone reading this read.

So how about instead of critisizing my reading comprehension you actually learn how to write your thoughts properly so as to leave NO room for misinterpretation?
Instead of waiting for a bunch of guys to question you & then making several posts to defend yourself.

Your evidence so far has been a rat study with ZERO relevance to humans & a bunch of anectotal stuff.
Anectotal evidence has its place, but it certainly isnt enough to make a claim like its ok to occassionally not use test.

You also keep saying that your not going to die without test - show me where ANYONE made a claim that you are?
If your hypogonadal & your dick doesnt work, you'll be alive but its not exactly an optimal lifestyle now is it

So I'll say it again: find something SOLID to back you up otherwise your point is null & void.

 

[ceo]

When asked by tbone & 3J to justify your statement this is what you said.
I'm sorry that you took my use of " " a little too literally, but that post is the equivalent to - lots of pros do it so it must be fine.
You can say that it wasn't what you meant, but that is how it will be interpreted by anyone reading this read.

So how about instead of critisizing my reading comprehension you actually learn how to write your thoughts properly so as to leave NO room for misinterpretation?
Instead of waiting for a bunch of guys to question you & then making several posts to defend yourself.

Your evidence so far has been a rat study with ZERO relevance to humans & a bunch of anectotal stuff.
Anectotal evidence has its place, but it certainly isnt enough to make a claim like its ok to occassionally not use test.

You also keep saying that your not going to die without test - show me where ANYONE made a claim that you are?
If your hypogonadal & your dick doesnt work, you'll be alive but its not exactly an optimal lifestyle now is it

So I'll say it again: find something SOLID to back you up otherwise your point is null & void.

My statement was simple. It is what it is. You interpreted it as you did. To assume and state that anyone reading it will interpret it the same is as erroneous as your interpretation. Not everyone is you, nor thinks exactly as you do. I did qualify the statement by saying it depends on your goals.

At the time I made that post I had something else happening that required my attention so I was brief. I apologize if my brevity caused you to have to make assumptions and draw your own conclusions as to what I might have meant. I simply meant that test is not necessary 100% of the time in a cycle and that it depends on the user's goals. I thought that was clear enough that I wasn't telling everyone "hey whatever you do, don't run test, because 'lots of pros do it so it must be fine'." I never intended anyone to jump to that conclusion. Hell, I never even thought about it. Of course I've been pretty tired lately, so maybe that was my fault? Maybe though, you just didn't take my statement as literally as you should have. No hidden meaning bro.

If rat studies have zero relevance to humans, why do they do them?

Anecdotal, well yes. I mean we are talking about the use of AAS in bodybuilding. It's going to be difficult to find medical studies performed on groups of bodybuilders using primo and anavar or trenbolone, if that is what you are asking of me. I wasn't aware that I needed to provide medical studies to simply make a statement that test isn't always necessary in bodybuilding?

True that being low T is not a good quality life. That is why when I was low T and miserable, I went to my doctor and got tested and had him start me on Test C injections.

Like I said, I doubt I will find a study done on bodybuilders using AAS, so to you my point is null and void. I can accept that. It's not worth arguing over.

 

[Megatron28]

I simply meant that test is not necessary 100% of the time in a cycle

Can you give us an example of when you believe testosterone is not necessary in a cycle being run by a human male?

 

[ceo]

Can you give us an example of when you believe testosterone is not necessary in a cycle being run by a human male?

I already did.

 

[Megatron28]

I already did.

I missed it. Can you redirect me to it please? Which post #?

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

My statement was simple. It is what it is. You interpreted it as you did. To assume and state that anyone reading it will interpret it the same is as erroneous as your interpretation. Not everyone is you, nor thinks exactly as you do. I did qualify the statement by saying it depends on your goals.

If rat studies have zero relevance to humans, why do they do them?

I wasn't aware that I needed to provide medical studies to simply make a statement that test isn't always necessary in bodybuilding?

Like I said, I doubt I will find a study done on bodybuilders using AAS, so to you my point is null and void. I can accept that. It's not worth arguing over.

Considering the likes & rep I was given for my response to your post, I'm not the only person who misinterpreted your post - you need to clarify your thoughts properly in future.

Rat studies are done mainly for morality/safety reasons.
Nobody cares if a bunch of rats get harmed in a lab, conducting tests on humans with unknown/illegal/dangerous compounds would cause outrage if something were to go wrong.
Again, rat studies are interesting but thats it - zero relevance from an applicability standpoint.

To make the claim you have made, you must have solid evidence such as studies or blood test results from yourself & others who haven't used test proving your point regarding recovery.
The anectotal/rat study just doesnt cut it.

Since you have accepted your point to be null & void to those looking for solid evidence, I agree that there is nothing left to argue over.


Edit: This is my final participation in this debate due to your constant passive-aggressiveness.

 

[ceo]

Considering the likes & rep I was given for my response to your post, I'm not the only person who misinterpreted your post - you need to clarify your thoughts properly in future.

Rat studies are done mainly for morality/safety reasons.
Nobody cares if a bunch of rats get harmed in a lab, conducting tests on humans with unknown/illegal/dangerous compounds would cause outrage if something were to go wrong.
Again, rat studies are interesting but thats it - zero relevance from an applicability standpoint.

To make the claim you have made, you must have solid evidence such as studies or blood test results from yourself & others who haven't used test proving your point regarding recovery.
The anectotal/rat study just doesnt cut it.

Since you have accepted your point to be null & void to those looking for solid evidence, I agree that there is nothing left to argue over.

I don't care about reps this and likes that. I'm happy for you that all your buddies are e-slapping you on the back, giving you the affirmations you desire. Apparently everyone here IS just like you. Congratulations.

I never made nor attempted to make any point regarding recovery. Please show me where I posted that. Again, you are putting statements into my posts that simply aren't there.

Rat studies are done to see if a drug is safe on an organism. It is a first step. They test rats and mice, using various doses, etc. observe and record data, review findings. If a drug is safe on rats, the next stage a drug might go to is human studies. Rat studies also give a pretty good idea of how to use those drugs in humans. If a 100mg/kg dose kills all the rats, but a 10mg/kg dose produces desired results, the researchers would make the proper Human Equivalent Dose preparations for humans. I wouldn't say there is zero relevance. They must have relevance or they wouldn't be performed. Though I doubt you will change your mind.

Again, I was not aware someone could say that test is not always necessary to use in every cycle, or throughout every cycle and need solid scientific evidence to back up such a statement. I thought this was the Anabolic forum, not the TRT forum. As you are hopefully aware, there are really no medical studies done on bodybuilders using large (ie, higher than TRT) doses of anabolic(s). Aren't we all pretty much experimenting when we run anything besides a TRT dose of test?

 

[kaname]

Ceo would I be correct in saying you do acknowledge the shut down in natural test production as a result of running a cycle without a test base but you feel that's ok for those who make that choice?

If that's the case then we can't really argue against that. However it's the general mindset of the forum to help prevent people from running into the large number potential problems associated with shut down or low t. Much the same way I would urge someone not to use heroin....true I see many who use herion function just fine daily, still not something I would suggest doing.

 

[ceo]

Ceo would I be correct in saying you do acknowledge the shut down in natural test production as a result of running a cycle without a test base but you feel that's ok for those who make that choice?

If that's the case then we can't really argue against that. However it's the general mindset of the forum to help prevent people from running into the large number potential problems associated with shut down or low t. Much the same way I would urge someone not to use heroin....true I see many who use herion function just fine daily, still not something I would suggest doing.

Um, you will have natural test shutdown even if you do use exogenous testosterone bro, regardless of what other anabolics you use. Running exogenous testosterone does not keep natural test going. Are you saying it does??? Please explain that.


**EDIT: (sorry for the duplicate posts, I'm trying to delete one but the option isn't there to delete it.)

 

[ceo]

Ceo would I be correct in saying you do acknowledge the shut down in natural test production as a result of running a cycle without a test base but you feel that's ok for those who make that choice?

If that's the case then we can't really argue against that. However it's the general mindset of the forum to help prevent people from running into the large number potential problems associated with shut down or low t. Much the same way I would urge someone not to use heroin....true I see many who use herion function just fine daily, still not something I would suggest doing.

Um, you will have natural test shutdown even if you do use exogenous testosterone bro, regardless of what other anabolics you use. Running exogenous testosterone does not keep natural test going. Are you saying it does??? Please explain that.


**EDIT: (sorry for the duplicate posts, I'm trying to delete one but the option isn't there to delete it.)

 

[kaname]

Um, you will have natural test shutdown even if you do use exogenous testosterone bro, regardless of what other anabolics you use. Running exogenous testosterone does not keep natural test going. Are you saying it does??? Please explain that.


**EDIT: (sorry for the duplicate posts, I'm trying to delete one but the option isn't there to delete it.)

Hence the purpose of replacing it while you're shut down. But I know you already knew that. I don't get lost in all the bs wordy arguments trying to sound intelligent. I asked a very simple question.

 

[ceo]

Hence the purpose of replacing it while you're shut down. But I know you already knew that. I don't get lost in all the bs wordy arguments trying to sound intelligent. I asked a very simple question.

OK, let me see if I can break it down so I know I am understanding you.

Ceo would I be correct in saying you do acknowledge the shut down in natural test production as a result of running a cycle without a test base

If you run a cycle without test, or WITH test, yes...you will shut down natural test production.

but you feel that's ok for those who make that choice?

Doesn't matter what I feel. It's up to the user and their goals and level of experience. Even then as I'm sure you know, if someone has their mind set on doing something my opinion, nor anyone else's is probably going to change their mind.

If the user's goals and experience level makes them determine that they will run a cycle or part of a cycle without test, so be it.

If that's the case then we can't really argue against that.

No? But you sure try.

However it's the general mindset of the forum to help prevent people from running into the large number potential problems associated with shut down or low t.

If someone cycles, they are going to be shut down (of their natural Test production). The only way to avoid that is not to run cycles/use AAS at all.

Much the same way I would urge someone not to use heroin....true I see many who use herion function just fine daily, still not something I would suggest doing.

I don't see the correlation with that statement. Heroin is a highly addictive substance that ruins the lives of the users and many times the people around them.

But I think MAYBE what you are trying to say is that the entire forum is of the opinion that test is always needed, 100% of the time. So every cycle should include test 100% of the time. Is that correct? If so, I simply disagree. Throw stones if you wish but I am not alone in that thinking.

Hope you all had a happy and safe Halloween!

 

[Megatron28]

CEO: for how long do you think it is healthy for human males to not have any testosterone (endogenous or exogenous) in their body?

 

[STAUNCHED427]

Just to clear things up I absolutely do not condone cycling without test as a base (100-200mg is sufficient) or at the least hCG as a base so that the body is still producing test which can serve as a test base.

It's been known to have test dropped a few weeks leading up to comp, I have no experience with this, it is merely what I know that it is very common. I would honestly be far more worried about all the orals, diuretics amongst other drugs than dropping test altogether for a few weeks leading into comp. I'm not talking cycling, I'm talking comp here, which by means is not health orientated in majority of competition cases so.

 

[Harnold]

Test C is longer lasting ester. Half-life of E is 4.5 days, while C is 8 days. In a cycle it won't matter though. What ester to use depends on the cycle you want to run and what other drugs you want to run with it.

And test is not needed with every cycle. Again, all depends on the user and the goals.

as long as I've been around I did not know that about c having a longer half life. I know I always use e or a short as c gives me stinging tits.

 

[cybrsage]

I got lost in the argument over grammar. Can someone repost, or link to the post, that contains an example of a good non-test based cycle? Thanks.

 

[blacktoppete]

Not running Test with your cycles sounds like 30yrs ago when I was told just to pyramid my cycle with no pct lol. How about the juice doctor at the gym telling me parabolin was a deadlift drug and would make mine increase 50lbs lol. Please guys run at least 80mgs of test a week with your cycles.

 

[ceo]

CEO: for how long do you think it is healthy for human males to not have any testosterone (endogenous or exogenous) in their body?

It's not up to me to say for anyone else. It's an individual decision based on the user and his goals (as I keep saying). I have not advised anyone here to not run test, though it seems you all think that is what I am saying.

A question was asked if test is always necessary. I answered that it's not, but it depends on the user and their goals. Many people have run cycles without using test either at all, or at least not using test during part of the cycle (as in dropping test from a cycle the last few weeks). It is a completely individual thing and what works for one person may not work for others.