Testosterone randomly went to zero, no reason at all

[Harnold]

There is a syndrome being associated with cross fit training where the body shuts down from over training. Look into that.

Great point DPR!

Despite the problem trying to be solved here and all the scientific information being offered, the thing that jumped out at me from the beginning was overtraining without question. I don't consider myself informed or educated enough on the actual science to offer up an opinion. however, I am well aware of the ability overtraining has in throwing a persons body into a completely fucked up state. just my 2 cents.

 

[Megatron28]

After reading a few online articles including "bodybuilding.com/fun/berardi22.htm"
which states in one part "However, once this system "burns out", the sympathetic nervous system decreases in activity and the parasympathetic system dominates. As a result, overtrained endurance athletes can expect the outcomes listed by Kraemer and Fry.

Decreased total testosterone levels
Decreased total testosterone/cortisol ratio
Decreased free testosterone/cortisol ratio
Decreased total testosterone/SHBG (sex-hormone binding globulin) ratio
Altered cortisol levels
Decreased sympathetic tone
Decreased nocturnal and resting catecholamines
Increased sympathetic stress response
Increased creatine kinase
Decreased exercise-induced lactate"

I guess it is safe to conclude that my overtraining and diet was the cause of this. I just need to do more research to see what would the best and most effective way to a total recovery be

See post #15 for recommended recovery protocol.

 

[juced_porkchop]

I looked it up, came across this article "breakingmuscle.com/strength-conditioning/overtraining-can-kill-you-the-3-stages-of-overtraining-part-2"

The guys testosterone level on that site went to zero aswell. I guess there is a link between over training and shutting down testosterone. Hopefully there are solutions on how to reverse these effects aswell

yeah traqin for muscle mass not for OCD type reasons that are left uncontrolled. train 2-3 times a week IMO ( EOD) google "dc training" its ok style. i go longer and bit more reps but its good

 

[Mprtz]

There is a syndrome being associated with cross fit training where the body shuts down from over training. Look into that.

might be thinking of rhabdomyolsis...

 

[3J]

For you to have gone from 94-83kg in 9-10 months suggests you were in a caloric deficit for that whole period, can you confirm this?
Training 6-7 days per week, along with hiit 2x week, is conplete overkill & does suggest overtraining especially when combined with a caloric deficit for the entire time.

A caloric deficit through your diet + high level of activity is never a good idea for naturals, especially if you kept up this pace for 9-10 months straight.
Its not uncommon to see weird things happen to your endocrine system when this sort of programme is prolonged for a long time. Test, cortisol, thyroid, among others, all tend to mess up because your body is convinced your starving & trying to become as efficient as possible by shutting down everything to keep up with your high level of activity.
To keep it simple: cortisol gets elevated leading to leptin resistance in the brain = terrible things to your metabolism including test/thyroid/etc shutdown. The fact that you were feeling good then all of a sudden a bunch of symptoms started appearing rapidy is a good sign of this exact process occuring.

Does your doc know you were running a caloric deficit for months with no break? Is he aware of your high frequency training schedule?
Based on the info you provided, this is the only cause that makes sense. I suggest you stop training for a few weeks (yes, completely) & increase your calories to maintenance to see if it makes a difference.
You will need to stay at maintenance for at least 4-6 weeks but you can reintroduce the training a few weeks in if you start to feel better.

This may not be the only thing going on, but at least if you follow this solution we can rule out diet & training as causes.

rip, are you implying that a caloric deficit of that nature with that duration would bring about test levels shown here?? i find it hard to believe.. i know it brings down your test levels.. sure.. below standards.. sure.. but that low??

 

[3J]

if thats the case.. he can run a pct with hcg first, then clomid..

his diet should be high in saturated fats and he should take zinc 30mg twice daily..
DAA would be good too.. so would 400mg magnesium..


IF the problem is overtraining, this would help recovery alot

 

[3J]

ill also add that i would be more than happy to set up his pct diet free of charge.. in the interest of science and my gaining knowledge on this specific matter.. so long as he checks in with me regularly on his progress.. if he decides this is the route he wants to go..

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

rip, are you implying that a caloric deficit of that nature with that duration would bring about test levels shown here?? i find it hard to believe.. i know it brings down your test levels.. sure.. below standards.. sure.. but that low??

I dont think its a coincidence that the problems began when he made diet & training changes.

I have seen guys after contest prep (12-16 weeks dieting) with moderate activity level (2-3x LISS, 3-4x resistance training) have test levels around the 1.0 nmol/l level.
Considering the OPs activity level was twice that of these guys, and he dieted for 2-3x longer I dont think its a surprise to see these levels.

I have said this countless times before, and I dont like repeating myself, but the length of a diet matters MUCH, MUCH more to hormonal changes then the size of the deficit.
This is yet another example of this - small deficits will cause problems if you follow them for months on end with no breaks - length of dieting matters more than size of deficit for metabo-lic & hormonal changes

It is also a scientific fact that overdoing your training, especially hiit while dieting, accelerates metab-olic adaptations when dieting.
Naturala are not capable of training 7 days a week when eating normally, nevermind in a deficit.

 

[3J]

yes.. i do deal with contest preps in a different way than you do..

so the offer still stands.. ill take care of the OP if this is the route he wants to go. .

thanks for the info rip, very informative as usual..

if you have studies on the matter pm me please!

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

yes.. i do deal with contest preps in a different way than you do..

so the offer still stands.. ill take care of the OP if this is the route he wants to go. .

thanks for the info rip, very informative as usual..

if you have studies on the matter pm me please!

You have to remember that the adaptations are more of an issue for naturals than guys who are on, that's why I'm very anti-cardio & anti-long prep.
If you cant reach your target bf in 8 weeks, then I divide it up into blocks of 4 weeks on 2 weeks off (this varies) to make sure any adaptations to dieting are avoided - my personal protocol that I find works for my guys/girls.

Really cool offer by 3J to get your diet up to speed for free - take advantage of it.

I'll send the research your way once monday arrives since weekends are a study free zone for me

 

[3J]

You have to remember that the adaptations are more of an issue for naturals than guys who are on, that's why I'm very anti-cardio & anti-long prep.
If you cant reach your target bf in 8 weeks, then I divide it up into blocks of 4 weeks on 2 weeks off (this varies) to make sure any adaptations to dieting are avoided - my personal protocol that I find works for my guys/girls.

Really cool offer by 3J to get your diet up to speed for free - take advantage of it.

I'll send the research your way once monday arrives since weekends are a study free zone for me

i can see your logic on the matter..

 

[ironhorse123]

ill also add that i would be more than happy to set up his pct diet free of charge.. in the interest of science and my gaining knowledge on this specific matter.. so long as he checks in with me regularly on his progress.. if he decides this is the route he wants to go..

I would 100% be more than keen to follow your PCT protocol and would check in with progress.
The specialist i am seeing still is confused as to how this all happened, and seeing we really didnt go into detail about how dieting and overtraining could of been the cause i think the best course of action for me is to book another appointment with him and to tell him what i now believe to be the reason for all this.
If he does believe that overtraining and prolonged dieting is the cause, doesnt he have the power to prescribe hcg and then clomid (as you suggested on the post above) ?.
I really do appreciate your offer and generosity to help out, thanks again

You have to remember that the adaptations are more of an issue for naturals than guys who are on, that's why I'm very anti-cardio & anti-long prep.
If you cant reach your target bf in 8 weeks, then I divide it up into blocks of 4 weeks on 2 weeks off (this varies) to make sure any adaptations to dieting are avoided - my personal protocol that I find works for my guys/girls.

Really cool offer by 3J to get your diet up to speed for free - take advantage of it.

I'll send the research your way once monday arrives since weekends are a study free zone for me

Personally I find it so ironic. I never wanted to take AAS solely because I was convinced it would lead to bad side effects in my future and its so ironic that i got probably the worst side effect (testosterone shutting down) because i was over training and dieting for too long . Knowledge is bliss, wish i wasnt such a dumbk*nt and researched more about prolonged dieting and training and then wouldnt be stuck like this.
And like i thanked 3j, i want to thank you too for taking your time to reply and contribute

 

[3J]

i would still go ahead with the next test.. just to rule anything else out..

and yes, you would need about 5000iu hcg and enough clomid to run 4 weeks at 50mg ed..

ill set up your diet.. i hope you like eating beef

 

[ironhorse123]

i would still go ahead with the next test.. just to rule anything else out..

and yes, you would need about 5000iu hcg and enough clomid to run 4 weeks at 50mg ed..

ill set up your diet.. i hope you like eating beef

The next test will take awhile i think. He said he has to fill out the forms, send them to get approved then the liquid they use for the GnRH test has to be sent over from another state and i need to book for it after at a special place that does it. But yeah there is no harm doing the test and will do it !

haha at the moment ive been eating so much rubbish, all junk food and still am training but only 3-4 times a week. would feel good to be back on a diet, but this time a "diet to recovery"
Tomorrow is saturday and im not sure if the specialist is open but Im going to book the first available appointment and discuss with him all this and hopefully he will put me on the PCT that youre suggesting.
Its 4am and im dead tired think im going to call it a night.
youre a real champ i cant express how thankful i am honestly, gnite friend

 

[Dreaded Pirate Roberts]

Totally agree..

OP i wish you the best!

if they say to go on hrt, i would rec a few months of Clomid therapy before committing to life long hrt shots.

You don't want to have to be on TRT at your age.
Stop training for a few months. HCG therapy for a few weeks followed by 2 month of clomid should have your body back in the right direction. Learn how to eat to grow. You should be eating much more often. It is almost impossible to over train if your eating right.

Please keep us posted.

 

[ironhorse123]

You don't want to have to be on TRT at your age.
Stop training for a few months. HCG therapy for a few weeks followed by 2 month of clomid should have your body back in the right direction. Learn how to eat to grow. You should be eating much more often. It is almost impossible to over train if your eating right.

Please keep us posted.

Yup il definitely stop training for the time being. The specialist office is closed on weekends, so il call first thing Monday morning and make the first available booking but his usually booked out for a week or two.
But il keep everyone posted with everything that goes on and hopefully there will be a full recovery !

 

[ironhorse123]

Hey guys, quick update;
I briefly spoke to my endo on the phone and told him about the serve overtraining syndrome etc. He said that there is no way I can get clomid (it's only for people with fertility issues wanting a baby according to him) . I really don't think he's the right endo for me, just a very negative person and I feel as if he is working against me rather than with me.

I've been calling around trying to find another endo that specialises with male hormones and hypogonadism so I can be administered the drugs for a proper PCT protocol and HPTA restart.

One place I called turned out to be the office for a metab0lic process specialist that focuses on returning the body to it's natural processes. He also deals with processes at the hormonal level .
The receptionist said she's holding me a spot for Wednesday as they are pretty booked out but can fit me in, if I pay a deposit and fill out the questionnaire.I told her I will 100% confirm tomorrow if I want to proceed or not .

So I am wondering if any one here thinks this will be beneficial to me in any way or form ?
Or if you guys believe I should find solely an endo ?
If anyone could please respond so I know whether or not to proceed on with this tomorrow. But I personally think that it sounds like a decent option seeing him (with my limited and humble opinion).
So if anyone could advise to go or otherwise to him for being beneficial in this situation I would greatly appreciate it !

 

[Megatron28]

maybe you should just order Clomid from RUI.

Why would you have to pay a deposit to see an Endo?

 

[ironhorse123]

maybe you should just order Clomid from RUI.

Why would you have to pay a deposit to see an Endo?

She said there is a deposit incase I cancel but if I don't then it will go towards the final payment. The lady was emphasising the point that he specialises in returning the body to it's normal processes .
Would you say there is a harm going to him (like would he be a waste of
Time) or do you think there is potential for him to prescribe proper pct for the HPTA restart ?

And it does seem that way megatron. I've been reading abit online about PCT's and people say nolva is better than clomid ?

On this website ################ the person posted what he believes to be the best PCT protocol.
It has nolva , hcg and aromasin .

Il copy and paste it here "
Week 1 - 6 :
Nolvadex (20mgs/day)

Week 1-3:
HCG 500iu/day

Week 1-4:
Aromasin 20mgs/day

Week 1-3:
Vitamin E 1000iu/day."

I also read on another article that it's beneficial to add vitamin d3 to a PCT.


Would you say that would be a good protocol to follow ?
Sorry for the noob questions, and thanks again

 

[ironhorse123]

I just called back the place and spoke to the specialist himself.
I asked him about a PCT protocol and he says he hasn't done anything involving that before.
But he also said he does extensive metabolism checking to see what exactly is causing an issue etc etc. I said I'll call back tomorrow. Not really sure if he is the person I should see now, but I don't know maybe him doing a metabolism check could be useful in some way ?