Tired of losing everything I gain. Question about HRT

[anzel]

In the past 5 years I have done 3 cycles. Test Cyp 525 mg. First 2 cycles I did 12 weeks and my 3rd I did 14 weeks. I get my blood work done every time BEFORE I do a cycle and my best number on my test level is 356.

I am tired of gaining well and feeling better and then coming off cycle and losing everything.

So I decided to just follow a treatment protocol of 200 mg/week of T Cyp with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) to support. But here is my question.

If I run just 200 mg /week what would that bring my blood levels to? Would it be higher than say my best number of 356?

If not then I would be better off not following a treatment protocol and just sticking to maybe one cycle per year.

Another question is , what are you guys thoughts on running a cycle for 12 weeks at 550mg/week and then at the end of the 12 weeks just taking 100 to 200 mg /week and just cruise for a 12weeks and then do a cycle and keep repeating.

Age: 40
5'11" @ 195-200 lbs
training for 25 years

 

[The_Brit]

Blasting and Cruising as your talking about has its merits and cons. The largest con namely is the longer your on the less likely your natural system will ever recover.

Dosage of T will affect everyones blood work differently so it is hard to say.

Ive always tried to work off the rule of thumb that "time off cycle = time on cycle + time on PCT". Using that math, you could do more than one cycle a year if you wanted too.

If your set on walking down this route why not just get testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) done through a doctor?

 

[1693]

If I run just 200 mg /week what would that bring my blood levels to? Would it be higher than say my best number of 356?

Since it's very individual on how someone reacts to an amount of test, I'll take a big guess that 200mg per week would put you at 1200.....so yes my guess is much higher than 356.

 

[anzel]

Yes I intend on using a dr. I am just considering it right now and trying to see what others have to say. I understand what you are saying about blasting & cruising. But if you are on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) then basically it is the same thing no? Once you are on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) thats it, thats the rest of your life.

 

[anzel]

Since it's very individual on how someone reacts to an amount of test, I'll take a big guess that 200mg per week would put you at 1200.....so yes my guess is much higher than 356.

Ok that a guess, I understand that no one can no exactly for sure. But thats a big help. I just read someone elses thread and he is on 200mg/wk and is at 800 right now. So there ya go. Thanks!

 

[totalburnout]

Since it's very individual on how someone reacts to an amount of test, I'll take a big guess that 200mg per week would put you at 1200.....so yes my guess is much higher than 356.

From what I've seen, 1200 would be a TROUGH figure. Although different for everyone, from what I've seen anecdotally, his peak would likely be near 1500-2000. 200mg is a big dose, especially given hCG and proper Aromatase inhibitor (AI) support. There's a reason why basically only the online labs are offering 200mg and not regular docs (there may be one or two examples on here but I believe even those guys were 220lbs+).

The male body is supposed to produce somewhere between 50-100mg of T from the sources I've read. Yes T is different for every person and also should be dosed based on weight, but this guy is under 200lbs.

 

[totalburnout]

Blasting and Cruising as your talking about has its merits and cons. The largest con namely is the longer your on the less likely your natural system will ever recover.

Dosage of T will affect everyones blood work differently so it is hard to say.

Ive always tried to work off the rule of thumb that "time off cycle = time on cycle + time on PCT". Using that math, you could do more than one cycle a year if you wanted too.

If your set on walking down this route why not just get testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) done through a doctor?

Also cholesterol issues, issues associated with taking an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) (if you plan to do so, but you likely should at that dose), hematocrit, etc., etc. If there were no downsides, we'd all be on the sauce forever.

OP - I'd strongly consider what you're doing before doing so. What if your source dries out or gives you a bad dose? Can you guarantee for the rest of your life you'll have access to getting T, hCG, and AI?

If you're tired of losing your gains, you probably need to look at your sleep, diet, and training methods. Your gains shouldn't just disappear.

 

[LittleJohnny]

In the past 5 years I have done 3 cycles. Test Cyp 525 mg. First 2 cycles I did 12 weeks and my 3rd I did 14 weeks. I get my blood work done every time BEFORE I do a cycle and my best number on my test level is 356.

I am tired of gaining well and feeling better and then coming off cycle and losing everything.

So I decided to just follow a treatment protocol of 200 mg/week of T Cyp with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) to support. But here is my question.

If I run just 200 mg /week what would that bring my blood levels to? Would it be higher than say my best number of 356?

If not then I would be better off not following a treatment protocol and just sticking to maybe one cycle per year.

Another question is , what are you guys thoughts on running a cycle for 12 weeks at 550mg/week and then at the end of the 12 weeks just taking 100 to 200 mg /week and just cruise for a 12weeks and then do a cycle and keep repeating.

Age: 40
5'11" @ 195-200 lbs
training for 25 years

If your best test level is 356 before going on a cycle, you're already a candidate for testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). It's no wonder you can't keep any gains with test that low. Forget the cycles and get on a steady testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) protocol. Remember how easy it was to get gains when you were 25 years old? That's what testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) will do for you.

 

[pikiki]

OP your problem is not the cycling, maybe poor or bad PCT?? but IMO is your diet. If you not eat enough and properly intake the calories and balance your macros you WILL NOT RETAIN ANY GAINS!!!!!!

Diet is about 85% of your gains....Get with 3j`s here bro or email me and I will explain in more detail if you want...

 

[totalburnout]

OP your problem is not the cycling, maybe poor or bad PCT?? but IMO is your diet. If you not eat enough and properly intake the calories and balance your macros you WILL NOT RETAIN ANY GAINS!!!!!!

Diet is about 85% of your gains....Get with 3j`s here bro or email me and I will explain in more detail if you want...

This.

Low T by itself will not necessarily cause a huge loss of muscle mass. Low T makes it infinitely more difficult to gain muscle but retaining muscle doesn't have the same relationship. There are plenty of bodybuilders that run massive cycles, come off of the cycle, have their system smashed and have low T but retain their muscle mass.

I retained my muscle mass for years with low T - the low T problem only became apparent when sleep, sex drive, and muscle building became non existent. Any doctor that looked at me, with absolutely not assume that I had low T, if they didn't have the blood work to back it up. That was actually the toughest sell to family and friends - I was in the best shape of anyone they knew, so it was hard to believe that I had a problem.

So yes, sleep, nutrition, and training are likely 95% of the OP's problem and not low T - when it comes to maintaining/retaining muscle mass. There will be some effect from low T but not to the drastic point that muscle just falls right off. My guess is that OP isn't consuming enough calories to maintain that mass. You have to eat for the weight that you want to gain or maintain - otherwise your body is going to keep returning to whatever weight that corresponds with the calories you're consuming.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

This.

Low T by itself will not necessarily cause a huge loss of muscle mass. .

oh lord, here we go again. I guess decreased muscle mass is not a symptom of a testosterone deficiency?

 

[halfwit]

Sorry totalburnout, I like most of your posts - but you're more of an exception than a rule. My quads alone shrunk by 50% over the years WHILE training and eating like a pig. Low test not only prevented me from putting on more LBM, but I also got really fat from it - leading to diabetes and other goodies that could have been solved if treated sooner. testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) has allowed me to shed easily 15% body fat and I've been able to regain a huge part of my physical presence because of it.

I don't want to discuss the cycling aspect out of respect for the sponsor of this section, but I can tell you that a poor post cycle therapy (pct) is a HUGE cause of loss for muscle mass as these guys are going from HUGE levels of testosterone to bottom values as their bodies normalize back to endogenous production. Eating properly is a huge part of the puzzle yes, but hormones are so important in what we do with the nutrients.

 

[totalburnout]

I don't want to discuss the cycling aspect out of respect for the sponsor of this section, but I can tell you that a poor post cycle therapy (pct) is a HUGE cause of loss for muscle mass as these guys are going from HUGE levels of testosterone to bottom values as their bodies normalize back to endogenous production. Eating properly is a huge part of the puzzle yes, but hormones are so important in what we do with the nutrients.

This part ill absolutely agree with - you certainly won't easily be able to maintain the same mass as you could with supraphysiological T levels.

That's an entirely different situation than testosterone replacement therapy (TRT).

Won't I don't agree with is that with low T levels, you can't maintain mass. You absolutely can with the proper diet, training, and sleep. Hell, I maintained mass even going to a more intense, less powerlifting focused workout routine. There's plenty of other posters on different boards that had the same experience.

The difference between ourselves and others? We had adequate knowledge to properly train and diet around our conditions. Was it simple? No, but I understood that I couldn't recover from workouts the same way anymore, so I decreased the frequency and upped the calories.

Most people that 'shrank' like you say you did, simply stopped working out as frequent and eating properly. Are neither of those things true? And it's not accurate to say, "yeah, but I stopped because I didn't feel as good as before". That's a self fulfilling prophecy and the same reason why people tend to become overweight regardless of their hormones.

If you can show me a study where people that originally had T levels within normal range, then had T levels below normal, continued their same diets and workout routines, and loss significant mass - ill recant.

There likely will be some loss - but we're not talking about 15-20lbs of LBM falling off overnight.

 

[Megatron28]

This part ill absolutely agree with - you certainly won't easily be able to maintain the same mass as you could with supraphysiological T levels.

That's an entirely different situation than testosterone replacement therapy (TRT).

Won't I don't agree with is that with low T levels, you can't maintain mass. You absolutely can with the proper diet, training, and sleep. Hell, I maintained mass even going to a more intense, less powerlifting focused workout routine. There's plenty of other posters on different boards that had the same experience.

The difference between ourselves and others? We had adequate knowledge to properly train and diet around our conditions. Was it simple? No, but I understood that I couldn't recover from workouts the same way anymore, so I decreased the frequency and upped the calories.

Most people that 'shrank' like you say you did, simply stopped working out as frequent and eating properly. Are neither of those things true? And it's not accurate to say, "yeah, but I stopped because I didn't feel as good as before". That's a self fulfilling prophecy and the same reason why people tend to become overweight regardless of their hormones.

If you can show me a study where people that originally had T levels within normal range, then had T levels below normal, continued their same diets and workout routines, and loss significant mass - ill recant.

There likely will be some loss - but we're not talking about 15-20lbs of LBM falling off overnight.

Nobody is talking about overnight. Don't make a argument like that. Most guys with Low T suffer from it for years without realizing it. It is a gradual process.

Your logic is off. You agree that having TT levels above normal (while on a cycle) results in adding muscle mass. But somehow having TT levels below normal for a prolonged period of time doesn't result is loss of muscle mass?

Somehow taking longer to recover from workouts won't result in loss of muscle mass over a prolonged period of time?

I can tell you that one of the big reasons I thought I had a Low T problem is because my level of play in hockey decreased a lot. I was slower. I couldn't recover after a game to be ready for the next one. I felt weak all the time. I know I definitely lost muscle mass and strength as a result of my Low T.

 

[totalburnout]

Nobody is talking about overnight. Don't make a argument like that. Most guys with Low T suffer from it for years without realizing it. It is a gradual process.

Your logic is off. You agree that having TT levels above normal (while on a cycle) results in adding muscle mass. But somehow having TT levels below normal for a prolonged period of time doesn't result is loss of muscle mass?

Somehow taking longer to recover from workouts won't result in loss of muscle mass over a prolonged period of time?

I can tell you that one of the big reasons I thought I had a Low T problem is because my level of play in hockey decreased a lot. I was slower. I couldn't recover after a game to be ready for the next one. I felt weak all the time. I know I definitely lost muscle mass and strength as a result of my Low T.

Don't try to apply the same logic across the board.

This guy is losing mass quickly because he has shitty post cycle therapy (pct) and nutrition. He's not discussing diminishing muscle mass over years. Two entirely different concepts.

You just said and confirmed exactly what I previously said, the mass won't fall off over night. It will be a slow process if it does fall off. I'd argue even when it does, it's not necessarily a lack of T that is causing the mass to decrease - its all the subsequent effects. I.e, the loss of mass is probably more closely linked to changes in nutrition, training, sleep rather than directly to T. With that said, if you have the willpower to maintain those things even when it becomes more difficult than you're not goin to experience some huge loss of mass.

Again, don't apply the concept across the board. I 100% agree that increased TT levels allow for muscle mass to MORE EASILY AND MORE QUICKLY be added and maintained. That is self explanatory. Again, an entirely different concept.

Would you agree now?

 

[Megatron28]

Don't try to apply the same logic across the board.

This guy is losing mass quickly because he has shitty post cycle therapy (pct) and nutrition. He's not discussing diminishing muscle mass over years. Two entirely different concepts.

You just said and confirmed exactly what I previously said, the mass won't fall off over night. It will be a slow process if it does fall off. I'd argue even when it does, it's not necessarily a lack of T that is causing the mass to decrease - its all the subsequent effects. I.e, the loss of mass is probably more closely linked to changes in nutrition, training, sleep rather than directly to T. With that said, if you have the willpower to maintain those things even when it becomes more difficult than you're not goin to experience some huge loss of mass.

Again, don't apply the concept across the board. I 100% agree that increased TT levels allow for muscle mass to MORE EASILY AND MORE QUICKLY be added and maintained. That is self explanatory. Again, an entirely different concept.

Would you agree now?

Not really. Increased TT allows for muscle mass to be added more easily and more quickly. Decreased TT allows for muscle mass to be lost more easily and more quickly. Regardless of how much you eat or train. Otherwise women could eat enough and train hard enough to have the muscle mass men do. Testosterone is a difference maker.

 

[halfwit]

This part ill absolutely agree with - you certainly won't easily be able to maintain the same mass as you could with supraphysiological T levels.

That's an entirely different situation than testosterone replacement therapy (TRT).

Won't I don't agree with is that with low T levels, you can't maintain mass. You absolutely can with the proper diet, training, and sleep. Hell, I maintained mass even going to a more intense, less powerlifting focused workout routine. There's plenty of other posters on different boards that had the same experience.

The difference between ourselves and others? We had adequate knowledge to properly train and diet around our conditions. Was it simple? No, but I understood that I couldn't recover from workouts the same way anymore, so I decreased the frequency and upped the calories.

Most people that 'shrank' like you say you did, simply stopped working out as frequent and eating properly. Are neither of those things true? And it's not accurate to say, "yeah, but I stopped because I didn't feel as good as before". That's a self fulfilling prophecy and the same reason why people tend to become overweight regardless of their hormones.

If you can show me a study where people that originally had T levels within normal range, then had T levels below normal, continued their same diets and workout routines, and loss significant mass - ill recant.

There likely will be some loss - but we're not talking about 15-20lbs of LBM falling off overnight.

My muscle atrophy wasn't overnight, it took place over several years as I was just diagnosed with depression or anxiety. Here's some info for you:

Symptoms
Symptoms of hypogonadism can include mood changes such as irritability or increased sadness, reduced libido, low energy, fatigue, decreased muscle bulk, decreased muscle strength, muscle aches, hot flushes, decreased ability to concentrate on tasks, lack of morning erections or less rigid erections, decreased volume of ejaculate, and infertility.[4]

Physical signs of hypogonadism can include a change in body composition with more central body fat, gynecomastia, testicular atrophy (more common with primary hypogonadism), muscular atrophy, osteoporotic fractures, and height loss.[4]

http://www.bcmj.org/articles/testosterone-deficiency-practical-guidelines-diagnosis-and-treatment
Reference they use for the atrophy:
4. Bhasin S, Cunningham GR, Hayes FJ, et al. Testosterone therapy in adult men with androgen deficiency syndromes: An Endocrine Society clinical practice guideline. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2010;95:2536-2559.

I used the cycling example as it's a more dramatic and visible due to the short time frame involved. Did I stop eating as much and training as hard? Yes, but that was because my cause for hypogonadism was due to extended use of opiates after I underwent several knee surgeries. I picked back up where I left off with my usual 150% intensity and insane amount of calories. The only problem was that not only was I unable to put any more mass on, but I was losing muscle tone and putting on more fat. I went from 280lbs at 9% body fat to a whopping 464lbs at 38% body fat, at which point I knew something was very wrong.

You have to keep in mind too, that training intensity is a relative output as I'm sure you can imagine it was far more difficult to spend an hour at the gym while at 464 than at 280. Thankfully I'm only about 50lbs from my goal after four years of testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) and busting my butt in the gym. I'll never deadlift 725lbs again, but at least I can say I'll look damn good lifting my sissy weights.

 

[totalburnout]

Not really. Increased TT allows for muscle mass to be added more easily and more quickly. Decreased TT allows for muscle mass to be lost more easily and more quickly. Regardless of how much you eat or train. Otherwise women could eat enough and train hard enough to have the muscle mass men do. Testosterone is a difference maker.

Where did I say this was not the case?

Yes, you have to work harder to maintain with low testosterone, I agree. The question was whether or not you could maintain - which was vein answere basically as - if you have low testosterone you can't maintain muscle. That's a bullshit, cop out, excuse.

 

[Megatron28]

Where did I say this was not the case?

Yes, you have to work harder to maintain with low testosterone, I agree. The question was whether or not you could maintain - which was vein answere basically as - if you have low testosterone you can't maintain muscle. That's a bullshit, cop out, excuse.

Do you understand the difference testosterone levels play in men and women? We will just have to agree to disagree about the significance testosterone plays in human development.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

I think he likes to argue just to argue, I mean anyone who doesn't know LBM is regulated partially by T is either ignoring the simple truth, or is just plain stupid........