Two day groups?

[AudioMaker]

Hi All,

Sorry if this has been covered but I'd like to get your thoughts on this...

Despite a pretty good diet, and focus, I'm having trouble getting sore in the gym. I tend to run out of energy in my lifts before I feel like the muscles are actually straining.

I know one option is to pursue more energy, but...

..Can I do a group for two days in the gym?

Right now I don't feel any soreness no matter what until two days after working a group, and I feel ready-to-go on the same group the following day.

So what about (making this up because the point isn't actually the grouping):

Chest/shoulders Mon/Tues (both get worked two days in a row...etc)

Biceps/back Wed/Thurs

Legs/ab's Fri-Sat

Sunday yoga/rest

I've tried this on both my chest and biceps and feel a lot more torn up if I do two days in a row, but I'm wondering if there's a downside to this?


Sorry again if this has been covered before (or if it's common knowledge).

Thoughts?

 

[pikiki]

I got one question for you bro. How many sets/Reps per muscle you do?? Let me explain myself lit bit more.

Lets say bench press - How many sets? How many reps? How many movements x muscle?

I found myself kind of like that some time ago, I got an advice to super set/high reps and do only one muscle x day 5 days a week. My workouts usually are between 35 to 50 minutes,not including cardio if I do some is at a diffren time most of the time.

When I say high reps is 12-15 reps/ 4-5 sets of 2 movements combine. When I do Bench press I do DB flys 12-15 ea for 5 sets Then 2 more moves for chest and I`m done...

Other if your a very advance lifter then you may do one more move BUT!!! the guy who told me this used to be a pro few years ago. Not saying at all this is for everyone but on the way for me to get the soreness and growth this is what I found more usefull.

Every 3-4 months I switch to short sets/reps but as heavy as I can for 3 sets and then I do like 5 moves x muscle for like 2 months then swicth back again.

Just what I experienced and work for me. I hope this help...

 

[AudioMaker]

I got one question for you bro. How many sets/Reps per muscle you do?? Let me explain myself lit bit more.

Lets say bench press - How many sets? How many reps? How many movements x muscle?

I found myself kind of like that some time ago, I got an advice to super set/high reps and do only one muscle x day 5 days a week. My workouts usually are between 35 to 50 minutes,not including cardio if I do some is at a diffren time most of the time.

When I say high reps is 12-15 reps/ 4-5 sets of 2 movements combine. When I do Bench press I do DB flys 12-15 ea for 5 sets Then 2 more moves for chest and I`m done...

Other if your a very advance lifter then you may do one more move BUT!!! the guy who told me this used to be a pro few years ago. Not saying at all this is for everyone but on the way for me to get the soreness and growth this is what I found more usefull.

Every 3-4 months I switch to short sets/reps but as heavy as I can for 3 sets and then I do like 5 moves x muscle for like 2 months then swicth back again.

Just what I experienced and work for me. I hope this help...

Well I suppose my rep's are about 13 reps (lucky number for me) and 5 sets if I took an average.

it's just that sometimes I can do my sets and have no more strength for more reps, or...don't feel like upping the weight and struggling.

I just noticed that when I don't want to bust a vein trying to push really hard, I don't get sore enough (feel like I distressed the muscle), but at times I've been disappointed with the previous day's workout and decided to just do it again. I can push almost as hard as the 1st day but by the 3rd day my muscles feel pretty torn up.

Does that make any sense?

Rephrase:

Day 1: Chest normal workout
Day 2. Some other muscle group
Day 3. Chest is mildly sore


But I'm thinking...

Day 1: Chest normal workout
Day 2: Chest normal workout (as much as I can)
Day 3: Really sore in the chest


Of course each day has more than one group, so it would be divided into 3 muscle groups of 2 consecutive days each.

Has anyone tried this as a way to maximize gains?

 

[pikiki]

It can work just make sure not over training those muscles cause back to back on the same muscle can take the rest those muscle needs to growth then you will hit a plateu and that sucks. Also cortisol levels can get very high with a very intense training like this so thats one thing to think about it.

IMO give a try and see if works for you bro

 

[AudioMaker]

It can work just make sure not over training those muscles cause back to back on the same muscle can take the rest those muscle needs to growth then you will hit a plateu and that sucks. Also cortisol levels can get very high with a very intense training like this so thats one thing to think about it.

IMO give a try and see if works for you bro

I appreciate your thoughts on this.

I think I'll try it for awhile.

I kinda thought it would be something that has been tried a lot (and probably had a name). Most things have.

If all the pro's start doing it in 2 years... remember the inventor (kidding).

It would be great though if one could get the same tear without upping the weight by doing this.... easier on the joints...etc.

Peace!

 

[Tone5500]

You could always try doing a different workout routine or try lifting heavier and less reps that could also help wouldn't suggest working out your chest twice in two days muscles need rest scents this is when they repair and grow

 

[AudioMaker]

You could always try doing a different workout routine or try lifting heavier and less reps that could also help wouldn't suggest working out your chest twice in two days muscles need rest scents this is when they repair and grow

Totally understand.

The idea though is that the more you tear, the more they will grow when resting.

I'm not expecting growth between day one and day two.

So... that means if I tear up my chest on day 1 and day 2, then it rests for 3,4,5,6,7 (5 days). You lose one rest day in the week.

The standard is to try to tear it up for 1 day and rest for 6.

Honestly, I usually feel completely recovered by day 4 or 5, so the 5 days rest seems adequate, but with the 2 consecutive days of lifting, I definitely feel like the group is worked harder.


Just thoughts and experimentation. I'm not suggesting it's a good idea, but then again... who knows?

Peace!

 

[halfwit]

I don't really like the idea of working the same muscle group two days in a row as there will already be some lactic acid buildup in the tissues which might lead to problems later down the road. I think your problem is plateauing which happens to us all if we don't keep up with muscle confusion by constantly changing our routines. I really like what pikiki suggested as it should eliminate the fatigue part of what is holding you back by allowing you to expend all of your energy into that one bodypart per day. I personally don't do more than 3 bodyparts a day because of this as I feel I just can't push 150% for 12 different lifts at 4 sets at 10-15 reps a piece.

Maybe switch it up with what was mentioned, but try moving to a 5x5 routine for a few weeks. Once your body gets used to you blowing up those muscle fibers with higher weight but at lower reps, you then switch it back to your old routine or maybe even go the opposite direction with super sets. Some of the best workouts I've ever had ended up with just the bar for resistance, crying tears of pain while trying to get those last 10 reps out on a super-setted chest row/press combo.

You can try your two day split routine, but I think if you have the ability to do the same muscle two days in a row, something is wrong.

My .02c

 

[AudioMaker]

<snip>

You can try your two day split routine, but I think if you have the ability to do the same muscle two days in a row, something is wrong.

My .02c

Does being old and fat count as something being wrong?

I hear ya. I guess it's just different for me. For some reason, I never feel "hurt" until the 3rd day.

Even when I was young, I could really destroy a muscle (I mean like not at the gym, like being forced to R&R a truck transmission on the side of road 3 times without a jack.... totally overdoing it).

Next day after... ache a bit, but seem's OK. Day after that... Paralyzed!

I don't know if that's normal? Is there anyone else who is 100% more sore 2 days after working out hard than the day after? If not, then I guess this wouldn't work for them.

Anyway, just speaking for myself... I seem to be able to "kill" a muscle in two ways. One way is to up the weight and push like hell. I still wait until day 3 to feel it.

The other way is to lift heavy, but without popping veins in my head, but do it twice. Still, it's day 3 (or in this case, the day after the 2nd session).

It's not exactly a "super set", but does have similarities. More of an "Extra set".

Theoretical Advantages:

Less Joint Damage

Ability to achieve the same muscle duress without upping weight.

Ability to achieve results without increased energy (vs the previous day)

Ability to achieve results on low energy / low motivation days (sometimes it's hard to go up in weight/reps vs the last week)

1 less wasted rest day (if you're recovered in 5, the muscle is just sitting there on day 6 when it could be working). Possibly faster gains if you recover in 5 days vs 6 (15% based on 1/7th of the week).

Hypothetically better quality muscle. I say this because of guys who have "occupational muscle" (logging, moving cement...etc.) who have a much lower work/rest ratio (5 days on, 2 off), and they are incredibly strong and hard in the worked muscle groups. They have to overcome residual lactic acid because simply... "do it or find another job".

Ratios:

1 on / 6 off

2 on / 5 off

5 on / 2 off (occupational)


Anyway, just throwing that out there for sake of pondering.... or in my case "On Golden Pondering".

Cheers!

 

[halfwit]

Does being old and fat count as something being wrong?

Hah! I wish. If it weren't for the guys that are still shredded in their 60's, I'd like to believe that.

I hear ya. I guess it's just different for me. For some reason, I never feel "hurt" until the 3rd day.

Even when I was young, I could really destroy a muscle (I mean like not at the gym, like being forced to R&R a truck transmission on the side of road 3 times without a jack.... totally overdoing it).

Next day after... ache a bit, but seem's OK. Day after that... Paralyzed!

I don't know if that's normal? Is there anyone else who is 100% more sore 2 days after working out hard than the day after? If not, then I guess this wouldn't work for them.

It makes sense as your body's build up of lactic acid moves from a localized area to a more general area, hitting nerves along the way. At least that would be my guess. On the same token, you can't really go by how sore you are to gauge how effective your workouts are. I'll hit on that below...

Anyway, just speaking for myself... I seem to be able to "kill" a muscle in two ways. One way is to up the weight and push like hell. I still wait until day 3 to feel it.

The other way is to lift heavy, but without popping veins in my head, but do it twice. Still, it's day 3 (or in this case, the day after the 2nd session).

It's not exactly a "super set", but does have similarities. More of an "Extra set".

Theoretical Advantages:

Less Joint Damage

Ability to achieve the same muscle duress without upping weight.

Ability to achieve results without increased energy (vs the previous day)

Ability to achieve results on low energy / low motivation days (sometimes it's hard to go up in weight/reps vs the last week)

1 less wasted rest day (if you're recovered in 5, the muscle is just sitting there on day 6 when it could be working). Possibly faster gains if you recover in 5 days vs 6 (15% based on 1/7th of the week).

There's a rule of thumb when it comes to resistance training. If you aren't increasing weight progressively or increasing your repetitions, you're either not working hard enough, or it's time to change up your routine. I tend to give it a couple weeks to see how I'm progressing by comparing it to my notes that I take during each workout. If I don't see the poundages moving up or at least an increase in reps, I replace that lift with another that still works the same muscle group. Ex: Replacing incline press with dumbbell flies or hammer strength presses.

Hypothetically better quality muscle. I say this because of guys who have "occupational muscle" (logging, moving cement...etc.) who have a much lower work/rest ratio (5 days on, 2 off), and they are incredibly strong and hard in the worked muscle groups. They have to overcome residual lactic acid because simply... "do it or find another job".

Ratios:

1 on / 6 off

2 on / 5 off

5 on / 2 off (occupational)


Anyway, just throwing that out there for sake of pondering.... or in my case "On Golden Pondering".

Cheers!

As one of those guys that comes from an occupational background, yes you get strong - but I wouldn't call it "quality" muscle. In fact, most guys that work in manual labor jobs suffer from chronic pain due to tendons and joints that never fully have a chance to heal as well as repetitive motion stress. After over six years of lifting several hundred thousands of pounds of rubber a day, I was rewarded with carpal tunnel syndrome, arthritis, a wonderful rotator cuff injury and three compressed discs by the age of 25. It does keep you fit though, I give it that.

I still think that you should try one of the approaches above before you try this double day attack on your muscles. I just see it as a recipe for injury as one day just isn't sufficient time for every body part used to heal before it is subjected to stress again. But then again, maybe you're on to something and I could be totally wrong! Everyone is indeed different, so what works for me may not work for you.

 

[MattyIce]

Hi All,

Sorry if this has been covered but I'd like to get your thoughts on this...

Despite a pretty good diet, and focus, I'm having trouble getting sore in the gym. I tend to run out of energy in my lifts before I feel like the muscles are actually straining.

I know one option is to pursue more energy, but...

..Can I do a group for two days in the gym?

Right now I don't feel any soreness no matter what until two days after working a group, and I feel ready-to-go on the same group the following day.

So what about (making this up because the point isn't actually the grouping):

Chest/shoulders Mon/Tues (both get worked two days in a row...etc)

Biceps/back Wed/Thurs

Legs/ab's Fri-Sat

Sunday yoga/rest

I've tried this on both my chest and biceps and feel a lot more torn up if I do two days in a row, but I'm wondering if there's a downside to this?


Sorry again if this has been covered before (or if it's common knowledge).

Thoughts?

you need only work chest 1x a week... why on earth would you want to do chest 2 days in a row? who gives a shit if you chest is mildly sore day 3... you should be sore.

 

[AudioMaker]

<snip>

As one of those guys that comes from an occupational background, yes you get strong - but I wouldn't call it "quality" muscle. In fact, most guys that work in manual labor jobs suffer from chronic pain due to tendons and joints that never fully have a chance to heal as well as repetitive motion stress. After over six years of lifting several hundred thousands of pounds of rubber a day, I was rewarded with carpal tunnel syndrome, arthritis, a wonderful rotator cuff injury and three compressed discs by the age of 25. It does keep you fit though, I give it that.

Well in a way we're back to the "high cruise" thing again (which is one of the reasons I pointed out this thread to you).

Granted, repetitive stress can cause injury. As I've said before, I was a machinery dealer who has moved many tons of iron by hand over the years, so I feel your point.

Just like the BBTRT, we come to a question of whether it's healthier to "blast" or just work the same dose/weight for longer.

In this hypothetical, it's the weight that stays the same for longer. We both realize that working a muscle and joint twice as much causes wear/injury. I think we both also realize that increasing that weight and the energy to move it can also cause increased wear and chance of injury. So hmm.

Of course being sore isn't an absolute indicator of getting a productive workout, but all things being equal, one kind of knows when a muscle has been pushed and is going to grow. I'm just using "sore" as a general indicator.

I think there is an established mindset that one is gaining relative to the weight they are pushing, but in reality the weight doesn't matter right? Only the damage to the muscle and the resulting repair which compensates and prepares for the next time. We're sort of building scar tissue.... or at least a similar approach.

I wonder if stressing s muscle that was already fatigued would further fatigue it beyond what letting it heal and upping the weight would accomplish? I'm talking same weight on day 1/2, not the kind of thing where you end up with an empty bar in your hand after a single session (which I also find helpful, but it's not the same as running the full weight again before you can fully heal).

Also, I'm not saying your weight/rep's don't go up each week, I'm saying to put a healthy weight on and push it 24hr apart, but stay shy of the intestine busting increases. If it were possible to fatigue the muscle just as much over two days without peeing yourself as it was from jumping up in weight faster, wouldn't that be a good thing?

<sigh>

The bright side is that it should be easy to find out without too much risk. I've been doing this for a couple weeks (semi-intentionally) and I feel pretty good about it. I actually feel like I worked harder than when I was maxing 1 day per week (although I will admit my "maxing" might involve a little less screaming than some others in the gym). Waaaay easier on the joints too.
Not really a hard thing for anyone to try.


@MattyIce:
Sorry, I think you misunderstood me. Getting more sore was the objective, not less. I was just wondering if it could be done in a different way by doubling the days at the same weight and pushing at 90% vs 110%.

Imagine it like this:

90% is where you can still get the bar on the rack with some grunting.

110% is where you need spotter assist for the last 2.

I'm suggesting the theory of running the 90% twice.

It's just theory.

Peace!

 

[MattyIce]

OK... still say 1x a week per muscle group is enough to grow.

 

[Tone5500]

^^sure is

 

[AudioMaker]

OK... still say 1x a week per muscle group is enough to grow.

No argument. Just looking at possible alternatives to the traditional route.

Browsing the forum last night, I came across one called "HST" (it's here in the training forum).

Taking a look at the webpage, it's even further away from tradition that I was suggesting.

Here's the link to the webpage:

Hypertrophy-Specific Training


Not a lot of rest with this one. At least mine gave 5 days.

Cheers!