Why not Nolvadex?

[popeye50]

so the general consensus is nolvadex during cycle and clomid for post cycle therapy (pct)?

General consensus on this thread....the only way to know if it works for you personally is to post cycle therapy (pct) with nolv/clo combo and both alone, with bloods to back it!

MOST opinions you will get are NOT tested every way by that individual, giving that opinion!

 

[ozzyozzy21]

I was under the impression that the general consensus here was Aromatase inhibitor (AI) (aromasin, etc) during cycle to control estro and bloat and 3 options for post cycle therapy (pct) with option 1 being superior:
1) Clomid 50/50/50/50
2) Clomid 100/100/100/50
3) Clomid 50/50/50/50 clomid and Nolvadex 40/40/20/20

 

[popeye50]

I don't see the point of excluding nolvadex. Where one lacks, the other will benefit. They are obviously not the same exact drug.

Its true that nolvadex slightly decreases igf-1, but I feel recovery of HPTA to optimal effiiciency IS #1.

Why not use all things to help?

With that said, run clomid AND lower dose of nolvadex than the 40/40/20/20 if that floats your boat... but exclude it? It doesn't make sense to me!

Add in aromasin too during PCT, prevent e rebound.

After studying many others experiences, my protocol includes all 3.

 

[On-one]

Looking for sources to find unitri any body

 

[ozzyozzy21]

I don't see the point of excluding nolvadex. Where one lacks, the other will benefit. They are obviously not the same exact drug.

Its true that nolvadex slightly decreases igf-1, but I feel recovery of HPTA to optimal effiiciency IS #1.

Why not use all things to help?

With that said, run clomid AND lower dose of nolvadex than the 40/40/20/20 if that floats your boat... but exclude it? It doesn't make sense to me!

Add in aromasin too during PCT, prevent e rebound.

After studying many others experiences, my protocol includes all 3.

I'm open to more discussion b/c ultimately we all want the perfect post cycle therapy (pct). I remember reading the thread or sticky on Nolva where it says Nolva is better since it does the same with fewer mgs, but my reading lately has me on the Clomid only train. LOL

 

[DADAWG]

yep. u can add Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during PCT as well.

wrong , Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) use ends before starting the actual pct.

 

[DADAWG]

I don't see the point of excluding nolvadex. Where one lacks, the other will benefit. They are obviously not the same exact drug.

Its true that nolvadex slightly decreases igf-1, but I feel recovery of HPTA to optimal effiiciency IS #1.

Why not use all things to help?

With that said, run clomid AND lower dose of nolvadex than the 40/40/20/20 if that floats your boat... but exclude it? It doesn't make sense to me!

Add in aromasin too during PCT, prevent e rebound.

After studying many others experiences, my protocol includes all 3.

in theory there should not be a estrogen rebound because test levels would be to low to aromatize when pct starts , that being said some say aromasin helps their recovery so im kind of on the fence on that one. as for nolva ADDED to clomid for pct in a cycle that doesnt contain tren or deca thats a yes imo ,if my cycle contained deca or tren i personally wouldnt throw in nolva to about 10 days into pct juist to make sure .

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

So let's see, here is a article byBill Llewellyn, He is he is the author of Anabolics 2000 and Anabolics 2002 and is one of the bodybuilding world's foremost experts on androgens and anabolics. He is also the President of Molecular Nutrition.
Please read the whole study. but I have the conclusion here.
And it would be nice to see some studies from your point of view just a Q&A not enough, so please share some studies here.

Conclusion:
To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - , and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of lh - leutenizing hormone - stimulation.

Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gynecomastia and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

In next month's follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time.

I know Bill, I have spoken to him on the phone multiple times, his wife is a writer too on Nutrition and I have respect for them both.

I am willing to bet, Bill has changed his views a bit since this article ( I know he has, but he can speak for himself), so we won't get into that.

First of all you are letting the importance of FSH evade you, after all it is the hormone responsible for spermatogenesis. The argument clearly supports exactly what I said that Nolva is devoid of the activity at the pituitary, having more of an effect on LH.

Clomid has been proven to increase fertility in men, time and time again.

Bill's argument is that the stimulation at the pituitary, which is what we want, may "perhaps" desensitize it to GNRH. Basically what he is referring to is when someone gets chemically castrated, over stimulation of the pituitary can burn it out. They did this to men that had prostate cancer, or the pedophiles in some other countries. This is actually the stimulation we need.

Since this article has been written many many longer term studies have proven Clomid in treatment for azoospermia and hypogonadism and TT levels have showed a continuous response to the treatment.

So the 1 point he made of why Nolva is "perhaps" better than clomid is simply not true. We also know now there is no desensitization to Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) like everyone once believed. Clomid is not potent enough to overstimulate the pituitary.

Now that we know that you can see why a combo is best, BUT if you were to choose one Clomid is the obvious choice.

As for posting the studies, I don't have time to go through them, as they are very easy to find and readily available for view for free.

Let me google that for you

as you can see the literature on Clomid is recent, not from 10 years ago.

 

[chain]

I know Bill, I have spoken to him on the phone multiple times, his wife is a writer too on Nutrition and I have respect for them both.

I am willing to bet, Bill has changed his views a bit since this article ( I know he has, but he can speak for himself), so we won't get into that.

No he hasnt, I know that as a fact. You can ask him that.






Since this article has been written many many longer term studies have proven Clomid in treatment for azoospermia and hypogonadism and TT levels have showed a continuous response to the treatment.
I have never come across a study that says so, like Bill's article; a direct comparison of the two.

So the 1 point he made of why Nolva is "perhaps" better than clomid is simply not true.
You need to explain this, I'd love to see you prove the author of multiple books on steroid wrong.




As for posting the studies, I don't have time to go through them, as they are very easy to find and readily available for view for free.

I made the time and searched, didn't come across any such study.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Bill's argument is that the stimulation at the pituitary, which is what we want, may "perhaps" desensitize it to GNRH. Basically what he is referring to is when someone gets chemically castrated, over stimulation of the pituitary can burn it out. They did this to men that had prostate cancer, or the pedophiles in some other countries. This is actually the stimulation we need.

first of all I already explained how he was wrong. see above.

Secondly you keep throwing around all these steroid authors, there is only 1 out of them all that has EVER published peer reviewed research on the effects of ASIH (anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism), Dr. Michael Scally, and he will tell you the same thing I did.

So I don't understand your logic at all, as a matter of fact its silly, you should me one study that says nolva raised T, these were not hypogonadal men, and there is a HUGE difference between stimulation on a normal operating HPGA than on a suppressed one.

Here you are submitting literature from people that have never published ANYTHING peer reviewed and on top of that your response is an opinion.

You keep going back to the same thing, that there is no studies directly examing the 2 together, and Im unsure what point you think that proves. As mentioned earlier the studies your referring are not on hypo men and you have failed to provide 1 single study where it was examined.

So instead of asking which is better, and asking me to prove a negative which is impossible, the better question is to ask if Nolva in fact stimulates TT at all in hypogonadism?


I would focus on proving that before I went on to which is better. Your opinion, or these steroid experts, are just opinions of what they think, it has not been proven.

I guess I will round up studies for you then. Then we can weigh the evidence. On top of that any vet, that understands PCT, will tell you clomid is better, it just has more sides.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Outcomes of clomiphene citrate treatment in young hy... [BJU Int. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

http://www.cenegenicsfoundation.org/library/library_files/Clomiphene_citrate_effects_on_testosterone_estrogen_ratio_in_male_hypogonadism.pdf

Clomiphene citrate improved testosterone levels in hypogonadal, overweight men | Endocrine Today

Jeffrey Dach MD Bio-Identical Hormone Blog: Clomid For Men With Low Testosterone by Jeffrey Dach MD

http://eje-online.org/content/161/1/163.long

Clomiphene increases free testosterone level... [Int J Impot Res. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI

I have no idea how you couldn't find these, there are literally a shit load more, please stop wasting my time.

 

[JimiThing]

I know Bill, I have spoken to him on the phone multiple times,

ORLY ? Hmm does he know you as Det Oak or by another name ? Cause within the hour of finding out he can clear up in my mind if this is total bullshit or not. So you let me know.
Oh and no dont know him , but I know someone that knows him very well.

 

[chain]

Let's examine your last sentence then, this will make sense as why clomid is avoided by vets and peeps who know post cycle therapy (pct). you said it not me

"On top of that any vet, that understands PCT, will tell you clomid is better, it just has more sides.[/QUOTE]"

The reason it has more sides is you take too much of it. Again where 20 mg nolva is suffecient, it take 150mg of clomid to do the same. Any drug you overdose can be harsh and produce sides, in clomids case, the irreversible vision damage, why would anyone wanna take the risk.
A lot of vets given the choice would choose nolva. Looks very clear why.

I was gonna write you another lengthy paragraph proving my points, but now lets look at your last sentence:

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

ORLY ? Hmm does he know you as Det Oak or by another name ? Cause within the hour of finding out he can clear up in my mind if this is total bullshit or not. So you let me know.
Oh and no dont know him , but I know someone that knows him very well.

Worked with him before, even worked with him testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), don't know I he knows my account or not, like I sai I have spoken with multiple times

Jimi you are pathetic idiot, you don't post anything worth reading, and you don't know why you parrot the info you, either add something to the argument, or just shut the fuck up.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Let's examine your last sentence then, this will make sense as why clomid is avoided by vets and peeps who know post cycle therapy (pct). you said it not me

"On top of that any vet, that understands PCT, will tell you clomid is better, it just has more sides.

"

The reason it has more sides is you take too much of it. Again where 20 mg nolva is suffecient, it take 150mg of clomid to do the same. Any drug you overdose can be harsh and produce sides, in clomids case, the irreversible vision damage, why would anyone wanna take the risk.
A lot of vets given the choice would choose nolva. Looks very clear why.

I was gonna write you another lengthy paragraph proving my points, but now lets look at your last sentence:

Write whatever you want, cause again you don't know what your talking about, cause if you look at the studies I posted they all used 25-50 mg, they are not vague either like the study you posted

I'm done arguing with you, you don't know the literature and it's obvious, and you ate wasting my time with your responses that may have had some substance in the 90's but not now

I have clearly posted ample evidence to show clomids efficacy on hypo men, where is yours on nolva?

Abstract

Context Persistence of hypogonadism is common in male patients with prolactinomas under dopamine agonist (DA) treatment. Conventional therapy with testosterone causes undesirable fluctuations in serum testosterone levels and inhibition of spermatogenesis.

Objective To evaluate the use of clomiphene as a treatment for persistent hypogonadism in males with prolactinomas.

Design Open label, single-arm, prospective trial.

Patients Fourteen adult hypogonadal males (testosterone <300ng/dl and low/normal LH) with prolactinomas on DA, including seven with high prolactin (range: ng/l; median: 101ng/l) despite maximal doses of DA.

Intervention Clomiphene (50mg/day orally) for 12 weeks.

Measures Testosterone, estradiol, LH, FSH, and prolactin were measured before and 10 days, 4, 8, and 12 weeks after clomiphene. Erectile function, sperm analysis, body composition, and metabolic profiles were evaluated before and after clomiphene.

Results Ten patients (71%), five hyperprolactinemic and two normoprolactinemic, responded to clomiphene (testosterone >300ng/dl). Testosterone levels increased from 201±22 to 457±37ng/dl, 436±52, and 440±47ng/dl at 4, 8, and 12 weeks respectively (0.001<P<0.01). Estradiol increased significantly and peaked at 12 weeks. LH increased from 1.7±0.4 to 6.2±2.0IU/l, 4.5±0.7, and 4.6±0.7IU/l at 4, 8, and 12 weeks respectively (0.001<P<0.05). FSH levels increased in a similar fashion. Prolactin levels remained unchanged. Erectile function improved (P<0.05) and sperm motility increased (P<0.05) in all six patients with asthenospermia before clomiphene.

Conclusions Clomiphene restores normal testosterone levels and improves sperm motility in most male patients with prolactinomas and persistent hypogonadism under DA therapy. Recovery of gonadal function by clomiphene is independent of prolactin levels.

http://www.eje-online.org/content/161/1/163

 

[JimiThing]

Worked with him before, even worked with him testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), don't know I he knows my account or not, like I sai I have spoken with multiple times

Jimi you are pathetic idiot, you don't post anything worth reading, and you don't know why you parrot the info you, either add something to the argument, or just shut the fuck up.

Well I really only asked because I know you were busted lying about that exact thing on another board...soooo
In that case it was a doctor . cant remember if it was Scally or Crisler , cannot recall. Anyway a member there knew them well, spoke to them and they had no idea who you were...at all. Same crap , talked to him on the phone. Wow.
So lets not act all shocked by my inquiry , because i BET THIS IS JUST AS MUCH BS AS THAT WAS.
I believe you are a delusional egomaniac with little more than a clue to be honest.

 

[DADAWG]

FINAL WARNING
shut the fuck up and take this feud to pm or email.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

I was gonna write you another lengthy paragraph proving my points, but now lets look at your last sentence:

My sentence is referring to the fact that many hypo men improve there TT numbers on clomid but still have libido issues.

These reports are everywhere.

I was not referring to the vision sides.

 

[popeye50]

if my cycle contained deca or tren i personally wouldnt throw in nolva to about 10 days into pct just to make sure .

Could you elaborate on this please...I've heard mixed opinions on nolvadex with deca/tren....make sure of what?

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Antiestrogens

Antiestrogens are the most commonly used therapy for idiopathic infertility. The antiestrogens indirectly stimulate the secretion of FSH and LH by blocking estrogen and estosterone receptors in the hypothalamus, which increases the release of GnRH. Two non-steroidal antiestrogens, clomiphene and tamoxifen, have been evaluated for empirical treatment of idiopathic male infertility.

Clomiphene is a synthetic, nonsteroidal drug that is similar in structure to diethylstilbestrol. Although it has a mild estrogenic effect, it functions predominantly as an antiestrogen. Clomiphene citrate is normally prescribed in a 25-mg daily oral dose. Drug doses generally range from 12.5 to 400 mg/day; however higher doses may cause down-regulation of the system (Heller et al 1969). Men treated with clomiphene citrate consistently demonstrate an elevation in serum FSH, LH and testosterone levels. As a result, serum gonadotropins and testosterone must be monitored to ensure that the testosterone level remains within normal limits, because higher levels may negatively influence spermatogenesis. In addition, patients should be cautioned that a small number of patients have suffered a deterioration in semen quality with antiestrogen therapy. Therefore, frequent semen analysis is essential during follow-up (Gilbaugh and Lipshultz 1994). Side effects of clomiphene therapy are usually mild and occur in less than 5% of patients (Siddiq and Sigman 2002). They include nausea, headache, weight gain, alterations in libido, visual field changes, dizziness, gynecomastia and allergic dermatitis.

Many well-designed prospective, randomized, controlled studies of clomiphene citrate failed to identify any efficacy over placebo (Foss et al 1973; Paulson 1979; Ronnberg 1980; Abel et al 1982; Sokol et al 1988). Only two studies revealed a positive effect on both sperm counts and pregnancy rates (Wang et al 1983; Check et al 1989). However, a multicenter WHO study of 190 couples randomized to receive 25 mg clomiphene daily or placebo showed only an 8% pregnancy rate in the treatment arm (WHO 1992).

Tamoxifen citrate is an antiestrogen that exhibits less estrogenic activity than clomiphene citrate and has been used in the treatment of male infertility. Doses range from 10 to 30 mg orally per day. Side effects are similar to those seen with clomiphene citrate but occur with lower frequency because of its weaker estrogenic properties. Although initial uncontrolled studies reported impressive results, including increased sperm densities and pregnancy rates (Vermeulen and Comhaire 1978; Bartsch and Scheiber 1981; Buvat et al 1983), all controlled studies using tamoxifen 10 to 20 mg per day reported negative results (Willis et al 1977; AinMelk et al 1987; Krause et al 1992).

Nonsurgical treatment of male infertility: specific and empiric therapy