Yes, I really am asking this...

Thanks for helping me clear up my issues dreday. It says use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) for two months though. Can this time frame be exceeded? I was thinking of still waiting til week 5 to start Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) but dropping the blasting phase completely. If I notice major shrinkage before the 5 week mark I could always just start Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) with my next test e. jab right?

I know, I know, noobs have no place using oral stacks on their first cycle. But, I've read that 8 weeks is the max for orals. So, is it SAFE to cycle dbol only for four weeks, then start test e. with dbol for four weeks at a dose say 20mg dbol? I don't want to just throw a bunch of horomones in my body, I just want an effective cycle, not fast results.
 
Gotcha buddy. I just don't want to come across as aggressive to you since you didn't do anything wrong lol. Sometimes I don't realize what my tone is like until I reread something. I applaud you for being in search of knowledge. We all can expand ourselves in that regard.

We all know you're a D-bag, dre. There is no denying it.


I say screw genetics too. Genetics will determine your natural limits but how you get to those limits is all about factors you CAN control. If you need more rest you need more rest. This doesn't mean you train less, it means you train more efficiently. If you tend to put on a lot of fat in a bulk, you lower the surplus you don't a aid bulking. If you don't grow in your training it's because it's not optimal, not bc you should stop training. I see many ppl using genes as a cop out excuse for this and that. Yes genes play a crucial role in things but they are not a reason for accepting mediocrity in training and diet bc you don't know any better

Well said.
 
Thanks for helping me clear up my issues dreday. It says use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) for two months though. Can this time frame be exceeded? I was thinking of still waiting til week 5 to start Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) but dropping the blasting phase completely. If I notice major shrinkage before the 5 week mark I could always just start Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) with my next test e. jab right?

I know, I know, noobs have no place using oral stacks on their first cycle. But, I've read that 8 weeks is the max for orals. So, is it SAFE to cycle dbol only for four weeks, then start test e. with dbol for four weeks at a dose say 20mg dbol? I don't want to just throw a bunch of horomones in my body, I just want an effective cycle, not fast results.


You're welcome. My advice on Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) use is to use it at 250iu 2x/wk starting day one and either stopping at the end of the cycle or 4days prior to starting post cycle therapy (pct). It is suppressive and needs roughly 4days to fully metabolize before you start post cycle therapy (pct). I would prefer you run it from day one bc taking preventative measure in this case is better than reactive measures. Starting week 5 or blasting before pct would be reactive bc atrophy would have occurred by those points. You can take your Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) either IM or sub-q injections and you can take them with test, mixed in the same pin even, or on any 2 days equally spaced apart.

8 wks is a blanket statement. So,e Orals are more liver toxic than others and shouldn't be ran for 8wks. Safe is a relative term. Is it going to kill you, no it won't. I know you're trying to get a specific answer out of me in regards to the dbol but I feel like I can't give that answer. If you choose to go that route, you'll need to worry about estrogen conversion, sides, etc. Pay attention and do blood work before cycle, 6-8wks into cycle, and 6-10wks post post cycle therapy (pct). You don't know about managing estrogen yet and dbol and test are both aromatizable compounds meaning they'll convert to estrogen. Trust me when I tell you, 500-750mg of 'good' testosterone a week will get you an gxtremely effective first cycle and leave plenty of room for future growth. Why show all your cards in the beginning kinda deal lol?
 
I've tried many different methods and changed my macro ratios and workouts more over that last ten years than I care to remember. Maybe I can say screw genetics, or maybe I do have low natty test. All I know is I need as much help as I can get right now because I love lifting, but it's just frustrating not seeing the gains for so damn long. I started out at 58 kgs, and hit a brick wall at 70kgs. The most I ever weighed was 90 kgs and I was just a lard ass in the hopes that it would help me build muscle that would show when I dropped down to a more reasonable bf. I was wrong. I'm sure this is over used, but I really have tried everything, personal trainers, supps, the lot. Maybe it's because I do change my workouts every few months, but I've always informed that change was a good thing for muscle growth, a necessity. Could it be that my diet sucks? I doubt it. Could it be that I don't get high quality lifting sessions. I doubt it. The only things left for me to really question is my training variations or my genetics. Maybe I change my routines too frequently, or that training for three different things all year (mass, strength, endurance) is what's hindering my growth potential. Then again, like I said before, I went on a three year "bulking" phase and when I cut back down there wasn't much of a difference. Suggestions?
 
Jojath, that wasn't directed at you; more at skenky and Casper. Should've put that in, don't want anyone taking me the wrong way.

My point was that different training methods work for different people... Do whatever works for you. There is no "end all, be all" method. If your split is working then awesome.

Oh and ... Screw genetics :)

The problem is his split ( or diet ) isn't working and should, IMO, be looked at before pulling out the genetics card
 
I've tried many different methods and changed my macro ratios and workouts more over that last ten years than I care to remember. Maybe I can say screw genetics, or maybe I do have low natty test. All I know is I need as much help as I can get right now because I love lifting, but it's just frustrating not seeing the gains for so damn long. I started out at 58 kgs, and hit a brick wall at 70kgs. The most I ever weighed was 90 kgs and I was just a lard ass in the hopes that it would help me build muscle that would show when I dropped down to a more reasonable bf. I was wrong. I'm sure this is over used, but I really have tried everything, personal trainers, supps, the lot. Maybe it's because I do change my workouts every few months, but I've always informed that change was a good thing for muscle growth, a necessity. Could it be that my diet sucks? I doubt it. Could it be that I don't get high quality lifting sessions. I doubt it. The only things left for me to really question is my training variations or my genetics. Maybe I change my routines too frequently, or that training for three different things all year (mass, strength, endurance) is what's hindering my growth potential. Then again, like I said before, I went on a three year "bulking" phase and when I cut back down there wasn't much of a difference. Suggestions?

I can only take your word for it that you really tried everything. Maybe you do have low test, who knows. You can find out easily with a blood panel, but if you really did bulk and train for 3 years, an awfully long bulk, and saw no results, IME there was some essential element of bbIng overlooked
 
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So you're a hard gainer ?? Then stop eating foods with a low PH like lemon juice,olives,pineapple juice...you want to maintain a Neutral PH around 7 or higher.Low PH kills Growth.
 
Why show all your cards in the beginning kinda deal lol?

You know you're probably right, so I won't continue bombing you with what if's. Maybe I'll just drop the dbol idea and do this test only. I guess I just needed someone to help talk some sense into me about.
 
Why show all your cards in the beginning kinda deal lol?

You know you're probably right, so I won't continue bombing you with what if's. Maybe I'll just drop the dbol idea and do this test only. I guess I just needed someone to help talk some sense into me about.

I think that to be the wisest course of action my man. This doesn't have to be your "go big or go home" cycle and if you tolerate a test only cycle well, there's plenty of time in the future to add dbol or other compounds. Remember you are messing with your hormones here, possibly permanently, so a cautious, well researched approach would be best. :)
 
So you're a hard gainer ?? Then stop eating foods with a low PH like lemon juice,olives,pineapple juice...you want to maintain a Neutral PH around 7 or higher.Low PH kills Growth.

Do you have references for this statement ^^^? I'm going to have to call Broscience on that until actual science says otherwise. Plus a pH of over 7 is no longer neutral.
 
I can only take your word for it that you really tried everything. Maybe you do have low test, who knows. You can find out easily with a blood panel, but if you really did bulk and train for 3 years, an awfully long bulk, and saw no results, IME there was some essential element of bbIng overlooked


Tell me about it, I wouldn't have bulked for song long if I thought I had any other option. I stopped making any significant gains after three years. Back then I was only doing one muscle group per week. It's when I got to year four and the "why the fuck is the scale not moving" moment hit me that I started trying different things with my training and nutrition. I got myself better educated on training (which there was not much more to learn about since I was getting instruction from an amateur bb) and calorie counting and the types of food I eat. Refer to my diet above, It's pretty much the same all year. Whole grains, whole foods and the only supps I take is a Latvian version of "Muscle Milk" and creatine monohydrate with OJ. The only thing that changes is the total calories and the cheat days here and there. I really am a fitness freak, a gym rat if you will. I love the fitness lifestyle and want to just have a nice beach body to show for my effort. Well, I do believe I have a nice beach body, I just want a bigger one. (yeah, that's what she said... lol) What do you think I might be overlooking here?
 
I think that to be the wisest course of action my man. This doesn't have to be your "go big or go home" cycle and if you tolerate a test only cycle well, there's plenty of time in the future to add dbol or other compounds. Remember you are messing with your hormones here, possibly permanently, so a cautious, well researched approach would be best. :)

I think I was just getting ahead of myself because I'm 30 and gained 12 kgs in ten years. I still got until I'm, dead, right? I'm sure Arnold is still juicing for his movies, and he's like 60 or something?
 
You're at 3 g's of kcals right now and you are t gaining weight. On cycle, you are increasing cals, amarite?
 
Tell me about it, I wouldn't have bulked for song long if I thought I had any other option. I stopped making any significant gains after three years. Back then I was only doing one muscle group per week. It's when I got to year four and the "why the fuck is the scale not moving" moment hit me that I started trying different things with my training and nutrition. I got myself better educated on training (which there was not much more to learn about since I was getting instruction from an amateur bb) and calorie counting and the types of food I eat. Refer to my diet above, It's pretty much the same all year. Whole grains, whole foods and the only supps I take is a Latvian version of "Muscle Milk" and creatine monohydrate with OJ. The only thing that changes is the total calories and the cheat days here and there. I really am a fitness freak, a gym rat if you will. I love the fitness lifestyle and want to just have a nice beach body to show for my effort. Well, I do believe I have a nice beach body, I just want a bigger one. (yeah, that's what she said... lol) What do you think I might be overlooking here?

Removing genetics and hormones from the picture for the time being your issue can be one of 3 things: inadequate nutrition, inadequate training, inadequate recovery.

If you're sleeping well, getting 6+hrs of sleep, hitting REM, etc chances are recovery isn't the issue. And if recovery was an issue as in overtraining your have the symptoms of it: depression, constant fatigue, mood swings, lack of appetite, soreness, loss of libido, decline in sexual performance, chronic pain and cramping and no energy, etc.

Training: the goal of training is to provide enough of a stimulus to disrupt homeostasis and drive adaptation. Look into Seyle's "General Adaptation Syndrome" and how it pertains to training. As you progress in training more and more stimulus is required to spur strength and mass gains BUT the loads ie the weights you work with will be harder to recover from. This is why intermediate training like wendler 5/3/1, Bill starr 5x5 and Rippetoe's Texas method were designed for. You have a volume day followed by rest, then an active recovery day, rest, then an intensity day. The training is designed so that Mondays workout spurs growth and drives adaptation, rest, Wednesdays workout allows you to recover, increase blood flow and do active recovery while keeping neural pathways active, rest, Nd Fridays workout uses intensity and less volume to promote progress for Monday or it allows you to show the strength increases from Mondays workout. What are your lifts at now for the big compound lifts?

Diet: is very complex but simply put you need to calculate BMR and TDEE. Eat more to bulk and less to cut. Protein 1g/lb BW, fats .4g/lb Bw, the rest of your cals can come from carbs, more protein, more fat, or any combo of those. Every few weeks it's good to recalculate TDEE since any cut he in weight will affect it. The choices of food you eat has less of an impact on results than commonly believed and so long as the majority of your food comes from whole and minimally processed sources to get. Wide source of macros and micros, you can eat almost anything you want. What Is your current intake and what has your weight been doing? Do you know your TDEE based off your stats?
 
You're at 3 g's of kcals right now and you are t gaining weight. On cycle, you are increasing cals, amarite?

I'm aiming for an on cycle surplus of 500 cal/day. I'll simply reduce cardio on cycle to adjust the difference. Swimming burns about 500 cal/hour, so instead of swimming for an hour every day I'll swim just 15-20 minutes of HIIT. Enough to keep a healthy heart while on cycle. I can always burn excess fat off post-cycle. But the short answer is yes.
 
I'm aiming for an on cycle surplus of 500 cal/day. I'll simply reduce cardio on cycle to adjust the difference. Swimming burns about 500 cal/hour, so instead of swimming for an hour every day I'll swim just 15-20 minutes of HIIT. Enough to keep a healthy heart while on cycle. I can always burn excess fat off post-cycle. But the short answer is yes.

You may find you still need to increase calories.

Personal example: off cycle I was eating under 3,000 calories/day. I was also lifting, 30-60 min cardio daily, jiu jitsu 4-5x/week, and the scale didn't budge +/- 2 1bs (unless I was partying a lot :p)

On cycle, I thought I'd increase cals to 3k, and keep cardio. No dice - scale didn't move. Fine, I thought, I'll eliminate cardio, with the exception of jiu jitsu (won't do it). Scale was moving slowly, but not like I had hoped. Finally, I had to increase calories by 500-700, in addition to eliminating cardio to really see the improvements I was looking for. What I'm saying is keep an open mind, you might have to make other adjustments in diet, as gaining/losing muscle/fat is evidently a dynamic and complicated process
 
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Removing genetics and hormones from the picture for the time being your issue can be one of 3 things: inadequate nutrition, inadequate training, inadequate recovery.

If you're sleeping well, getting 6+hrs of sleep, hitting REM, etc chances are recovery isn't the issue. And if recovery was an issue as in overtraining your have the symptoms of it: depression, constant fatigue, mood swings, lack of appetite, soreness, loss of libido, decline in sexual performance, chronic pain and cramping and no energy, etc.

Not a problem, I sleep 8-10 hours every night. Feel very energetic most days and take a recovery week every 3-4 months depending on which phase I'm in (mass, strength, endurance).

[/QUOTE]Training: the goal of training is to provide enough of a stimulus to disrupt homeostasis and drive adaptation. Look into Seyle's "General Adaptation Syndrome" and how it pertains to training. As you progress in training more and more stimulus is required to spur strength and mass gains BUT the loads ie the weights you work with will be harder to recover from. This is why intermediate training like wendler 5/3/1, Bill starr 5x5 and Rippetoe's Texas method were designed for. You have a volume day followed by rest, then an active recovery day, rest, then an intensity day. The training is designed so that Mondays workout spurs growth and drives adaptation, rest, Wednesdays workout allows you to recover, increase blood flow and do active recovery while keeping neural pathways active, rest, Nd Fridays workout uses intensity and less volume to promote progress for Monday or it allows you to show the strength increases from Mondays workout. What are your lifts at now for the big compound lifts?[/QUOTE]

I've tried many different programs and splits, at this point it's simply a matter of preference. To be honest, I have no idea what my 1rm of anything is. I mainly use a smith machine for my compound lifts for safety (no spotter at the moment), but heavy days as of late, I; bench 45 kgs, military press 30kgs, b/o row 50kgs, squat and dead 50kgs on my heaviest sets, with 4 sets 6-8 reps and three compound lifts per heavy day. Yeah, I'm a pussy, but I have a narrow frame and, as gay as it sounds, I'm fragile. This is what I can do with proper form, which is more crucial to me than the weight I'm pushing (military injury keeps me on the side of caution). Every set is to muscle failure and if I do one more rep I won't be able to lock the smith machine safely.

[/QUOTE]Diet: is very complex but simply put you need to calculate BMR and TDEE. Eat more to bulk and less to cut. Protein 1g/lb BW, fats .4g/lb Bw, the rest of your cals can come from carbs, more protein, more fat, or any combo of those. Every few weeks it's good to recalculate TDEE since any cut he in weight will affect it. The choices of food you eat has less of an impact on results than commonly believed and so long as the majority of your food comes from whole and minimally processed sources to get. Wide source of macros and micros, you can eat almost anything you want. What Is your current intake and what has your weight been doing? Do you know your TDEE based off your stats?[/QUOTE]

I do eat whole foods with a cheat day here and there. Right now to bulk up; 3,000 cal/day, 150-200 surplus cal/day. I just came off of a cutting phase and I lost 20kgs since January of this year. I use my fitness pal to count my calories so it's more accurate than just writing down what I eat. It's really been beneficial for fat loss, so I'll see how it does for trying to gain some muscle back from the calorie deficit I was in for the last ten months. I just learned about this app and I've never used it for bulking, we'll see.
 
Removing genetics and hormones from the picture for the time being your issue can be one of 3 things: inadequate nutrition, inadequate training, inadequate recovery.

If you're sleeping well, getting 6+hrs of sleep, hitting REM, etc chances are recovery isn't the issue. And if recovery was an issue as in overtraining your have the symptoms of it: depression, constant fatigue, mood swings, lack of appetite, soreness, loss of libido, decline in sexual performance, chronic pain and cramping and no energy, etc.

Not a problem, I sleep 8-10 hours every night. Feel very energetic most days and take a recovery week every 3-4 months depending on which phase I'm in (mass, strength, endurance).

[/QUOTE]Training: the goal of training is to provide enough of a stimulus to disrupt homeostasis and drive adaptation. Look into Seyle's "General Adaptation Syndrome" and how it pertains to training. As you progress in training more and more stimulus is required to spur strength and mass gains BUT the loads ie the weights you work with will be harder to recover from. This is why intermediate training like wendler 5/3/1, Bill starr 5x5 and Rippetoe's Texas method were designed for. You have a volume day followed by rest, then an active recovery day, rest, then an intensity day. The training is designed so that Mondays workout spurs growth and drives adaptation, rest, Wednesdays workout allows you to recover, increase blood flow and do active recovery while keeping neural pathways active, rest, Nd Fridays workout uses intensity and less volume to promote progress for Monday or it allows you to show the strength increases from Mondays workout. What are your lifts at now for the big compound lifts?[/QUOTE]

I've tried many different programs and splits, at this point it's simply a matter of preference. To be honest, I have no idea what my 1rm of anything is. I mainly use a smith machine for my compound lifts for safety (no spotter at the moment), but heavy days as of late, I; bench 45 kgs, military press 30kgs, b/o row 50kgs, squat and dead 50kgs on my heaviest sets, with 4 sets 6-8 reps and three compound lifts per heavy day. Yeah, I'm a pussy, but I have a narrow frame and, as gay as it sounds, I'm fragile. This is what I can do with proper form, which is more crucial to me than the weight I'm pushing (military injury keeps me on the side of caution). Every set is to muscle failure and if I do one more rep I won't be able to lock the smith machine safely.

[/QUOTE]Diet: is very complex but simply put you need to calculate BMR and TDEE. Eat more to bulk and less to cut. Protein 1g/lb BW, fats .4g/lb Bw, the rest of your cals can come from carbs, more protein, more fat, or any combo of those. Every few weeks it's good to recalculate TDEE since any cut he in weight will affect it. The choices of food you eat has less of an impact on results than commonly believed and so long as the majority of your food comes from whole and minimally processed sources to get. Wide source of macros and micros, you can eat almost anything you want. What Is your current intake and what has your weight been doing? Do you know your TDEE based off your stats?[/QUOTE]

I do eat whole foods with a cheat day here and there. Right now to bulk up; 3,000 cal/day, 150-200 surplus cal/day. I just came off of a cutting phase and I lost 20kgs since January of this year. I use my fitness pal to count my calories so it's more accurate than just writing down what I eat. It's really been beneficial for fat loss, so I'll see how it does for trying to gain some muscle back from the calorie deficit I was in for the last ten months. I just learned about this app and I've never used it for bulking, we'll see.
 
You may find you still need to increase calories.

Personal example: off cycle I was eating under 3,000 calories/day. I was also lifting, 30-60 min cardio daily, jiu jitsu 4-5x/week, and the scale didn't budge +/- 2 1bs (unless I was partying a lot :p)

On cycle, I thought I'd increase cals to 3k, and keep cardio. No dice - scale didn't move. Fine, I thought, I'll eliminate cardio, with the exception of jiu jitsu (won't do it). Scale was moving slowly, but not like I had hoped. Finally, I had to increase calories by 500-700, in addition to eliminating cardio to really see the improvements I was looking for. What I'm saying is keep an open mind, you might have to make other adjustments in diet, as gaining/losing muscle/fat is evidently a dynamic and complicated process

Definitely aware of that. Like I said before, I gained 20kgs of mostly fat in three years on whole foods eating around 300 cal/day surplus. I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall here. Everyone is so quick to jump me for pulling the genetics card. I've been lifting for 10 years for the love of man! If I didn't think I had plateaued long ago, I wouldn't even be interested in the juice to begin with. I would PREFER to be natty, but I'm 30 now and it doesn't look like I'll get to my goal any other way, cut and dry. All I want is a solid 80-85 kgs 8-12% bf. It was said earlier that this is a wide gap, I know. That's because I go by what's in the mirror. If 80kgs @ 12% bf looks good to me, I'll maintain from there, If not I'll keep juicing until I hit a sweet spot. Not to sound like an asshole... I'm just very tired of repeating myself about my fitness regiment and nutrition, to everyone in the gym, bodybuilding forums and now here. Sorry guys, I really do appreciate the feedback, but this is a steroid forum, remember? If I needed diet and exercise advice I would go elsewhere.
 
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