Yes, I really am asking this...

[jojath]

So, I've read many sticky's and other posts for noobs, but I didn't seem to find any that completely answer my questions. Hence I opened an account, hence here I am, hence the following questions. But first my stats

age 30, 181 cm, 70 kg, 12-15% bf, 3,000 cal/day, 50% carbs, 25% fat, 25% protein

What I want:

80-85 kg, 8-12% bf

My question is this; For a first 12 week cycle (yes, I really did just say that), would it be appropriate to kick start my cycle with oral dianabol for four weeks and end my cycle with four weeks of oral winstrol? I know that you are supposed to start with only test to watch for the sides, but would the sides of dbol be apparent before the sides of the test since dbol is faster acting and the test takes about 4-5 weeks to kick in? On the same note, would the sides of test be apparent in weeks 5-8 in order to judge what the sides of Winstrol (winny) would be in weeks 9-12?

You can hate if you want, I have my reasons for doing this. Dbol to kick start and I've heard test and dbol make you swell up, so I want to end the cycle with Winstrol (winny), which I've heard dries you out. I may or may not change my proposed cycle based on everyone's advice. I have busted my ass in the gym for the past ten years and only gained about 12kg (started at 58 kg, now 70 kg). I'm an EXTREMELY hard muscle gainer.

Keep in mind that all this info was put together from posts for noobs. Please don't tell me I'm lifting too much, I know my body better than you and one muscle group per week doesn't cut it anymore. Same goes for cardio; I just came down from 90 kg @ 25% bf the beginning of 2013 from a "bulking" phase and I don't plan on putting on so much fat ever again. Plus swimming is therapeutic for me, I love it.

Here's where I stand now on my nutrition and fitness followed by my proposed first cycle. Any constructive criticism is appreciated.

Meal Plan
Meal 1 - 50g oatmeal, 50g nestle fitness fruits, 250g whole milk, banana, apple, centrum multivitamin
Meal 2,3,4 - 150g boneless skinless chicken breast (raw weight), 125g brown rice (dry weight), ½ cup broccoli (raw), ½ cup carrots (raw), ***8531; red bell pepper (raw),1 onion, 1 garlic clove, 20ml soy sauce

Workout Plan
Monday - Shoulders, Compound Lifts, Heavy/Legs Isolation Lifts, Light/Abs
Tuesday - Back, Compound Lifts, Heavy/Chest, Isolation Lifts, Light
Wednesday - Arms, Compound Lifts, Heavy/Abs
Thursday - Legs, Compound Lifts, Heavy/Shoulders, Isolation Lifts, Light
Friday - Chest, Compound Lifts, Heavy/Back, Isolation Lifts, Light/Abs
Saturday - Arms, Isolation Lifts, Light/Calves, Isolation Lifts, Light
1 Hour Swim, HIIT, Mon-Friday
Sunday - Rest

Proposed 12 Week Cycle (Will amend if needed)

Weeks 1-4

Methandrostenolone - 30mg/ed
Testosterone Enanthate - 500mg/ew
Exemestane 12.5mg/eod/ed or 25mg/ed (12.5mg/ed and adjust as needed)

Weeks 5-8

Testosterone Enanthate - 500mg/ew
Exemestane 12.5mg/eod/ed or 25mg/ed (12.5mg/ed and adjust as needed)
Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) 500mg/ew

Weeks 9-12

Stanozolol 30mg/ed
Testosterone Enanthate - 500mg/ew
Exemestane 12.5mg/eod/ed or 25mg/ed (12.5mg/ed and adjust as needed)
Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) 500mg/ew

Weeks 13-15

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) 1000iu/ed 10days prior to pct
Exemestane 12.5mg/eod/ed or 25mg/ed (12.5mg/ed and adjust as needed)

Weeks 15-18

PCT - Clomafene Citrate 50mg/ed
Tamoxifen Citrate 40mg/ed for 2 weeks, 20mg/ed for 2 weeks

 

[shenky]

why the hell do you want to add Winstrol (winny) so bad? Oral, none the less? Two is too many orals for 12 weeks.

The reason you're having trouble building muscle is because your split sucks for natty, if I'm reading it correctly. If you don't want us to critique your split, why would you post it? There are some vets on this forum that have been probably lifting as long as you've been alive, and might be able to shed light on your building mass problem.

I'll tell you right now that "one bodypart per week doesn't cut it anymore" is the wrong attitude. It has little to do with the time you spend in the gym, but more of the quality of time you spend there. In addition, BB'ers need rest. Like, that's how you grow.

If you need cardio, that's fine, but add more calories to compensate; I personally recently discovered that if I want to add mass I have to forgo the cardio. You'll have to find your own personal sweet spot with that one.

at the very least drop the Winstrol (winny). Personally I don't understand why anyone, with the exception of pros, use it. If you want that dried out look, do it the old fashioned way and cut; instant gratification isn't the answer here.


Your questions (I am also new, so take it for what it's worth):

1) Kickstarting with oral is a common practice, but not recommended for first cycles. I can already tell you're pretty stubborn, so sure, do the kickstart.

2) Test is not Winstrol (winny), so no, test will not give you an accurate idea of the sides you'll experience on Winstrol (winny), nor is 8 weeks on a long ester a long enough time to judge how you really respond to winny.

 

[Austin1]

8 to 12% BF is a massive range. You really should find out what it is with a bodpod or dexa scan assessment. They're not even remotely close to justify a range to be honest.

Winny will do nothing for you at 12%.

 

[DreDay187]

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/656959-my-first-cycle-planning-executing-successful-first-cycle.html

^^^ one of the better articles regarding first cycles.

Some ppl don't listen and run Orals from the beginning but it's always best to take smaller steps and add one compound at a time. The sides can manifest themselves from the beginning, it has less to do with "kick in" time than you believe. You may develop allergic reactions to a compound or be a non responder to one. No way of knowing by throwing a bunch of compounds in there. A beginner cycle does not include two orals I'll tell you that much.

Drop the Winnie and Dbol, start Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) from day 1!

 

[Teutonic]

nothin else need s saying

 

[jojath]

I do appreciate constructive criticism, but telling me my split sucks accomplishes nothing and this is exactly what I was referring too. I know my body brother, if you have a suggestion other than "your split sucks" then I'm open to hear it.

But anyway, sounds like I'm gonna drop the Winstrol (winny) for sure. If it's not that effective at my bf it doesn't sound like the sides are worth it. I'm not trying to get into competition shape or anything, just pack on some mass however long the road will be. I know that I am only deluding myself if I think I will get instant results, I understand that it will probably take me a few cycles to get there and further cycles just to maintain because I am just genetically a skinny bastard.

Dbol, I don't know. I'm aware that there could be allergic reactions, unexpected sides, etc. but I would think that these would set in early on as dbol is fast acting. If I got anything serious I can always quit the dbol, continue the test and monitor my sides from there. Worse case scenario, my body can't handle these substances and I'll try another compound solo. Correct me if this is an idea that could be extremely harmful.

As far as hcg, I've read a lot of confusing information which is why I chose what made the most sense. Start at week 5 til week 12, and start again 10 days prior to post cycle therapy (pct). Don't want to desensitize my body right? I got this from the first cycle thread.

Btw, thanks for the great read dreday, that was very helpful. I'm still really ambitious to stack dbol orals for 4-6 weeks, I've heard 8 is the max for orals. What about a lower dose of dbol 2-4 weeks before my cycle of test? 2-4 weeks pre-cycle, 2-4 weeks in-cycle? Would this give me sufficient time to be aware of any sides that would contrast the sides of test e.? I would think that this wouldn't be a problem. If there are too many sides with dbol that are unmanageable, I can drop the dbol after the 2-4 weeks and start test e. If nothing crazy I could continue the dbol for four more weeks until the test e. starts working it's magic.

Thoughts?

 

[DreDay187]

I do appreciate constructive criticism, but telling me my split sucks accomplishes nothing and this is exactly what I was referring too. I know my body brother, if you have a suggestion other than "your split sucks" then I'm open to hear it.

But anyway, sounds like I'm gonna drop the Winstrol (winny) for sure. If it's not that effective at my bf it doesn't sound like the sides are worth it. I'm not trying to get into competition shape or anything, just pack on some mass however long the road will be. I know that I am only deluding myself if I think I will get instant results, I understand that it will probably take me a few cycles to get there and further cycles just to maintain because I am just genetically a skinny bastard.

Dbol, I don't know. I'm aware that there could be allergic reactions, unexpected sides, etc. but I would think that these would set in early on as dbol is fast acting. If I got anything serious I can always quit the dbol, continue the test and monitor my sides from there. Worse case scenario, my body can't handle these substances and I'll try another compound solo. Correct me if this is an idea that could be extremely harmful.

As far as hcg, I've read a lot of confusing information which is why I chose what made the most sense. Start at week 5 til week 12, and start again 10 days prior to post cycle therapy (pct). Don't want to desensitize my body right? I got this from the first cycle thread.

Btw, thanks for the great read dreday, that was very helpful. I'm still really ambitious to stack dbol orals for 4-6 weeks. What about a lower dose of dbol a couple weeks before my cycle of test? 2 weeks pre-cycle, 2-4 weeks in-cycle? Would this give me sufficient time to be aware of any sides that would contrast the sides of test e.? I would think that this wouldn't be a problem. If there are too many sides with dbol that are unmanageable, I can drop the dbol and start test e. If nothing crazy I could continue the dbol for four more weeks until the test e. starts working it's magic.

Thoughts?

Te problem with running dbol before test is that dbol will suppress the HPTA. Now it starts immediately but you won't experience " full' shutdown for a few weeks but why the rush to jump on dbol? I just finished my first cycle and saw plenty of results on test alone, I had a pretty good diet and training though which is crucial. I just don't understand the mentality of wanting to throw everything under the sun into a first cycle. Where would you go from there? You'd leave yourself less of a ceiling for future use. You're going to do what you're going to do but myself and many others would recommend you wait on the dbol for future cycles and let your first be test only. Here's another good read regarding HCG:

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/656984-hcg-why-you-should-use-cycle-only-how-prepare-your-hcg-injections.html

 

[shenky]

I do appreciate constructive criticism, but telling me my split sucks accomplishes nothing and this is exactly what I was referring too. I know my body brother, if you have a suggestion other than "your split sucks" then I'm open to hear it.

But anyway, sounds like I'm gonna drop the Winstrol (winny) for sure. If it's not that effective at my bf it doesn't sound like the sides are worth it. I'm not trying to get into competition shape or anything, just pack on some mass however long the road will be. I know that I am only deluding myself if I think I will get instant results, I understand that it will probably take me a few cycles to get there and further cycles just to maintain because I am just genetically a skinny bastard.

Dbol, I don't know. I'm aware that there could be allergic reactions, unexpected sides, etc. but I would think that these would set in early on as dbol is fast acting. If I got anything serious I can always quit the dbol, continue the test and monitor my sides from there. Worse case scenario, my body can't handle these substances and I'll try another compound solo. Correct me if this is an idea that could be extremely harmful.

As far as hcg, I've read a lot of confusing information which is why I chose what made the most sense. Start at week 5 til week 12, and start again 10 days prior to post cycle therapy (pct). Don't want to desensitize my body right? I got this from the first cycle thread.

Btw, thanks for the great read dreday, that was very helpful. I'm still really ambitious to stack dbol orals for 4-6 weeks. What about a lower dose of dbol a couple weeks before my cycle of test? 2 weeks pre-cycle, 2-4 weeks in-cycle? Would this give me sufficient time to be aware of any sides that would contrast the sides of test e.? I would think that this wouldn't be a problem. If there are too many sides with dbol that are unmanageable, I can drop the dbol and start test e. If nothing crazy I could continue the dbol for four more weeks until the test e. starts working it's magic.

Thoughts?

You're very sensitive. I told you your split sucks, and then I told you why - you need to rest more. Constructive. You said you know your body, but right after said youre having a hard time gaining muscle.

 

[casperthefriendly]

I'll tell you right now that "one bodypart per week doesn't cut it anymore" is the wrong attitude. It has little to do with the time you spend in the gym, but more of the quality of time you spend there. In addition, BB'ers need rest. Like, that's how you grow..

I couldn't agree more with this...If you're working each muscle with the proper intensity, once a week is plenty for each muscle group. I go to failure on every set I do, with the exception of warm-up sets and there's no way I could do more than once a week. That might change if you're on gear. I wouldn't know....yet

 

[DreDay187]

I couldn't agree more with this...If you're working each muscle with the proper intensity, once a week is plenty for each muscle group. I go to failure on every set I do, with the exception of warm-up sets and there's no way I could do more than once a week. That might change if you're on gear. I wouldn't know....yet

This is is false thinking. For reference I squat 3x/wk. I power clean and bench 2x/wk. many power lifters train 5-6days a week and Bulgarian Olympic and power lifters are notorious for training 2x/day 6-7days/wk

 

[casperthefriendly]

This is is false thinking. For reference I squat 3x/wk. I power clean and bench 2x/wk. many power lifters train 5-6days a week and Bulgarian Olympic and power lifters are notorious for training 2x/day 6-7days/wk

I guess I stand corrected. I don't know too much about powerlifting. For me personally, my legs are sore for 3 to 4 days after squatting. There's no possible way I could do that 3x a week.

 

[Uso]

This is is false thinking. For reference I squat 3x/wk. I power clean and bench 2x/wk. many power lifters train 5-6days a week and Bulgarian Olympic and power lifters are notorious for training 2x/day 6-7days/wk

I agree with this I'm currently doing squats heavy eod and lightweight on those off days... I'm growing and getting stronger. Not bashing you op, just different styles of lifting out there.

 

[jojath]

@Shenky
I'm getting plenty of rest. Heavy/Light 6 day split works for me. I go heavy one day, and light the next so I can put more energy into the low sets on heavy day and have plenty of energy left to tone the muscle on light days. I think you're failing to realize that muscle is fairly resilient and can easily handle a workout twice a week. I have chicken legs though so I do calves three. You only need around 48 hours for a muscle to be ready for another progressive load exercise. It's all about intensity and volume. I don't give my body more of either than it can adapt to without injury. I change the set-up frequently so it doesn't get boring and to help stimulate growth, but this is what I will be using for my bulking phase. I suppose I should have clarified that. Even with me changing up my routines, I still have a difficult time gaining muscle, it's called genetics bro. What does that even mean, "more rest'? 4 days? 6 days? I'm not sensitive, you just need to learn what critiquing actually means. I'm a noob to roids, not exercise.

 

[jojath]

@uso
I think you missed it... I said in the first place your genetics have a huge role in what works for you. Heavy/Light 6 day split, two muscle groups a day twice a week works for me in my bulking phase. I switch it up with two others phases for strength and endurance.

 

[DreDay187]

I guess I stand corrected. I don't know too much about powerlifting. For me personally, my legs are sore for 3 to 4 days after squatting. There's no possible way I could do that 3x a week.

I'm not trying to come off as arrogant or put you down so I hope you don't take me the wrong way. The reason you're sore 3-4 days after squatting is because you haven't built up your workload and tolerance to workload by doing "legs" once a week. You would start off light obviously and add weight as often as possible while slowly increasing workload. You don't just jump into heavy squats. 4days a week from the get go m

 

[casperthefriendly]

I'm not trying to come off as arrogant or put you down so I hope you don't take me the wrong way.

No offense taken, bud. I'm here for knowledge, so I appreciate all the differing opinions I can get.

 

[shenky]

I'm getting plenty of rest. Heavy/Light 6 day split works for me. I go heavy one day, and light the next so I can put more energy into the low sets on heavy day and have plenty of energy left to tone the muscle on light days. I think you're failing to realize that muscle is fairly resilient and can easily handle a workout twice a week. I have chicken legs though so I do calves three. You only need around 48 hours for a muscle to be ready for another progressive load exercise. It's all about intensity and volume. I don't give my body more of either than it can adapt to without injury. I change the set-up frequently so it doesn't get boring and to help stimulate growth, but this is what I will be using for my bulking phase. I suppose I should have clarified that. Even with me changing up my routines, I still have a difficult time gaining muscle, it's called genetics bro. What does that even mean, "more rest'? 4 days? 6 days? I'm not sensitive, you just need to learn what critiquing actually means. I'm a noob to roids, not exercise.

Fair enough, but genetics aside, somewhere there is a reason you aren't growing natty. Maybe it's your diet, maybe it's your routine, maybe you have low natty test, I don't know. Personally, I think your routine and/or diet might have something to do with it. You can play the genetics card, if you want. How much is enough rest? You tell me - some need more, some need less, but you are essentially hitting your arms indirectly or directy 6 days a week right now, for example...
If this is cryptic it's because I'm on a phone

 

[Uso]

Jojath, that wasn't directed at you; more at skenky and Casper. Should've put that in, don't want anyone taking me the wrong way.

My point was that different training methods work for different people... Do whatever works for you. There is no "end all, be all" method. If your split is working then awesome.

Oh and ... Screw genetics

 

[DreDay187]

No offense taken, bud. I'm here for knowledge, so I appreciate all the differing opinions I can get.

Gotcha buddy. I just don't want to come across as aggressive to you since you didn't do anything wrong lol. Sometimes I don't realize what my tone is like until I reread something. I applaud you for being in search of knowledge. We all can expand ourselves in that regard.

 

[DreDay187]

Jojath, that wasn't directed at you; more at skenky and Casper. Should've put that in, don't want anyone taking me the wrong way.

My point was that different training methods work for different people... Do whatever works for you. There is no "end all, be all" method. If your split is working then awesome.

Oh and ... Screw genetics

I say screw genetics too. Genetics will determine your natural limits but how you get to those limits is all about factors you CAN control. If you need more rest you need more rest. This doesn't mean you train less, it means you train more efficiently. If you tend to put on a lot of fat in a bulk, you lower the surplus you don't a aid bulking. If you don't grow in your training it's because it's not optimal, not bc you should stop training. I see many ppl using genes as a cop out excuse for this and that. Yes genes play a crucial role in things but they are not a reason for accepting mediocrity in training and diet bc you don't know any better